Weapon Balance Thread:Now with 50% Less Dumb Ratings - Games

Why Have 2 Threads when we can have one?Let's just start this shit up. Buffs: Scout: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/7/77/Backpack_Baby_Face%27s_Blaster.png/90px-Backpack_Baby_Face%27s_Blaster.png[/IMG] Small Damage Boost,or somehow make meatshots stronger,no point point in going fast if you can't kill enemies with your entire clip. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/5b/Backpack_Winger.png/90px-Backpack_Winger.png[/IMG] It's been already proved several times that this is a total downgrade,it needs either a damage or an accuraccy buff. Soldier: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/3/32/Backpack_Mantreads.png/90px-Backpack_Mantreads.png[/IMG] Stomping an enemy is a quite rare situation unless you're playing on an idle server,the damage could be boosted to 5X without any big effect. Pyro: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a3/Backpack_Scorch_Shot.png/90px-Backpack_Scorch_Shot.png[/IMG] To weak to be even barely viable,either decrease the nerf to 30% or make it minicrit burning enemies. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/6a/Backpack_Sharpened_Volcano_Fragment.png/90px-Backpack_Sharpened_Volcano_Fragment.png[/IMG] Needs to be somehow more viable in normal gameplay,either by increased damage to burning enemies or something else. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/9d/Backpack_Homewrecker.png/90px-Backpack_Homewrecker.png[/IMG] Sentry Knockback/Damage resistance so it can be used for it's main purpose. Demoman: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/9e/Backpack_Loch-n-Load.png/90px-Backpack_Loch-n-Load.png[/IMG] Doesn't really need a big buff,just some small tweaking,I could see the ability to charge shots for increased speed. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/af/Backpack_Claidheamh_M%C3%B2r.png/90px-Backpack_Claidheamh_M%C3%B2r.png[/IMG] Also knows as the unpronounceable sword,either remove the no random crits or the health decreasing. Heavy: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4c/Backpack_Huo_Long_Heatmaker.png/90px-Backpack_Huo_Long_Heatmaker.png[/IMG] 4 Ammo per sec,just this. I'm guessing it's main purpose was to give out near spies,but losing all your clip in less than 20 Secs is just ridiculous for a heavy,at least it increases the usage of shotguns but I see little to no reason to use it over the stock minigun. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d4/Backpack_Tomislav.png/90px-Backpack_Tomislav.png[/IMG] The recent nerf just made it unusable,the spin up time should be 20%-30% or the firing speed -10%. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/14/Backpack_Brass_Beast.png/90px-Backpack_Brass_Beast.png[/IMG] The Move speed while spinning it should be either 30% or less,heavy doesn't need to be a rocketless sentry. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/5d/Backpack_Warrior%27s_Spirit.png/90px-Backpack_Warrior%27s_Spirit.png[/IMG] Melee is rarely used as heavy,giving it a health decrease just makes it a Heavy-Boxing only weapon. Engie: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/17/Backpack_Short_Circuit.png/90px-Backpack_Short_Circuit.png[/IMG] Do I need to say anything on this one? Medic: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/17/Backpack_Quick-Fix.png/90px-Backpack_Quick-Fix.png[/IMG] Able to deploy ubercharge at any percentage,it should be a QUICK-fix after all. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/54/Backpack_Vita-Saw.png/90px-Backpack_Vita-Saw.png[/IMG] -Health for the class that all the enemies aim at for just 20% isn't enough it,either bump it up to 35% or change health to somethign else. Sniper: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/7/7e/Backpack_Darwin%27s_Danger_Shield.png/90px-Backpack_Darwin%27s_Danger_Shield.png[/IMG] Increased move speed or something like that.Remove the health buff,see below why. [IMG]http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/2/2f/Backpack_razorback.png/90px-Backpack_razorback.png[/IMG] Needs to get Darwin's Health increase,one single backstab protection doesn't justify the lost of a slot. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d2/Backpack_Cleaner%27s_Carbine.png/90px-Backpack_Cleaner%27s_Carbine.png[/IMG] The SMG is already a weak weapon,giving it a smaller clip and less firing speed just gives the sniper a mix of a weak pistol and KGB,at least remove no random crits. Spy: [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/3/39/Backpack_Diamondback.png/90px-Backpack_Diamondback.png[/IMG] With Enforcer and Ambassador around,there's no reason to use this,2 crits per building would make it more viable. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/59/Backpack_Big_Earner.png/90px-Backpack_Big_Earner.png[/IMG] Spy's a pretty fragile class,dying from a single rocket just makes it obsolete unless you're spamming the dead ringer. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c6/Backpack_Conniver%27s_Kunai.png/90px-Backpack_Conniver%27s_Kunai.png[/IMG] See above. Nerf/Rework [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/86/Backpack_Soda_Popper.png/90px-Backpack_Soda_Popper.png[/IMG] Getting mini-crits for doing your job,running,this needs to be reworked somehow. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/17/Backpack_Escape_Plan.png/90px-Backpack_Escape_Plan.png[/IMG] It's a straight upgrade since it has the same base damage as the shovel,reduce the damage a little. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/1e/Backpack_Liberty_Launcher.png/90px-Backpack_Liberty_Launcher.png[/IMG] Crutch weapon,removes the only job the soldier has with the rocket launcher,aiming. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/58/Backpack_Half-Zatoichi.png/90px-Backpack_Half-Zatoichi.png[/IMG] No random crits or decreased damage. [IMG]http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/3/3e/Backpack_axtinguisher.png/90px-Backpack_axtinguisher.png[/IMG] Somehow less sinergy with degreaser. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/bd/Backpack_Pomson_6000.png/90px-Backpack_Pomson_6000.png[/IMG] I'd either make the projectile faster or fix the hitbox. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fe/Backpack_Third_Degree.png/90px-Backpack_Third_Degree.png[/IMG] Straight Upgrade. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/b/b6/Backpack_Amputator.png/90px-Backpack_Amputator.png[/IMG] Straight Upgrade. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/51/Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png/90px-Backpack_Solemn_Vow.png[/IMG] Straight-fucking-upgrade [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c1/Backpack_Hitman%27s_Heatmaker.png/90px-Backpack_Hitman%27s_Heatmaker.png[/IMG] Decrease bodyshot damage even more,full charged ones may still kill light classes. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/e/e3/Backpack_Machina.png/90px-Backpack_Machina.png[/IMG] Switch the increased charge damage for something else,full charged headshots already kill all classes,no need to have a bodyshotter. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/8/86/Backpack_Bushwacka.png/90px-Backpack_Bushwacka.png[/IMG] Basically a straight upgrade,making it a 20% EXPLOSIVE vulnerability would balance it. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d6/Backpack_Spy-cicle.png/90px-Backpack_Spy-cicle.png[/IMG] Regenerates after 20 Seconds or Less fire vulnerability or no fire resistance if the spy-cicle you're using was already regenerated. Now state opinions or tell me what should be added to the list. Edit:oh god why did I type in customization.

I think the bushwacka could at the least have a no random crits attribute.

[QUOTE=Erfly;37071150]I think the bushwacka could at the least have a no random crits attribute.[/QUOTE] I suppose that does the job too,I will add it to the list.

Baby face blaster is fine, scorch shot is fine, loch n load is fine and knives don't get random crits in the first place. Also I highly doubt the razor back will ever be buffed, it blocks a primary mechanic of a class and despite that it wont necessarily save the life of the sniper, it forces the spy to risk making him self more obvious. But then again snipers are far out of the way and the spy would likely get away with shooting a sniper with out the whole team baring down on him.

Remove "no random crits" on weapons, and add a real downside that applies even in no-crit servers.

Solemn Vow: - Enemies can see your health. Third Degree: - If the Medic healing you takes damage, you take the same damage as well. (A situational downside for a situational upside) Kunai: + Have a counter for backstab kills with it to raise spy's max health a little bit when it's used like the Eyelander. (Max stack effect of 4) Baby Face Blaster: + Jumping takes a chunk out of the speed meter rather than completely emptying it, to keep some momentum going. Big Earner: + Kills add to the maximum duration of your cloak meter, like the Eyelander effect. Eviction Notice: + Make the trade-off equal Winger: + More ammo/damage Claidheamh Mòr: + Head count meter either adds to the duration of your charge, or makes it recharge faster for each kill.

[QUOTE=mooman1080;37071343]Baby face blaster is fine, scorch shot is fine, loch n load is fine and knives don't get random crits in the first place.[/QUOTE] Sorry,I didn't notice the spy-cicle thing,while I know loch and load is fine,it would benefit from a small buff don't you think?Also,you can't say schorch shot isn't underpowered. [QUOTE=Ond kaja;37071413]Remove "no random crits" on weapons, and add a real downside that applies even in no-crit servers.[/QUOTE] While that is true,no random crits in a melee weapon is a serious thing.

[QUOTE=Ond kaja;37071413]Remove "no random crits" on weapons, and add a real downside that applies even in no-crit servers.[/QUOTE] Often times random critical hits on non melee weapons are just for the sake of preventing confusion with it's mechanics, like the cleaners carbide for example. No random crits on melee weapons how ever are downsides.

[QUOTE=Sharc;37071444]Solemn Vow: - Enemies can see your health. Third Degree: - If the Medic healing you takes damage, you take the same damage as well. (A situational downside for a situational upside) Kunai: + Have a counter for backstab kills with it to raise spy's max health a little bit when it's used like the Eyelander. (Max stack effect of 4) Baby Face Blaster: + Jumping takes a chunk out of the speed meter rather than completely emptying it, to keep some momentum going. Big Earner: + Kills add to the maximum duration of your cloak meter, like the Eyelander effect. Eviction Notice: + Make the trade-off equal Winger: + More ammo/damage Claidheamh Mòr: + Head count meter either adds to the duration of your charge, or makes it recharge faster for each kill.[/QUOTE] That solemn vow nerf is actually nice but I don't think it can be coded in game. I could see the claid with 0.2/0.3 Increase per head up to 4 Heads. Kunai/Big Earner are cool too,you really like the Eyelander don't you? But honestly,they aren't really an option for valve,they don't want to add ''killstreaks''.If you know what I mean.

[QUOTE=NekuMisage;37071451]Sorry,I didn't notice the spy-cicle thing,while I know loch and load is fine,it would benefit from a small buff don't you think?Also,you can't say schorch shot isn't underpowered. [/QUOTE] Sure I can, as a main pyro the scorch shot was all the rage for a short while, the long range knock back and combined knock back with airblast can mean some crazy amounts of control, losing your secondary can hurt but pyro isn't exactly hurting for damage and the rapidly applying afterburn to multiple targets at a distance has it's benefits.

[QUOTE=mooman1080;37071518]Sure I can, as a main pyro the scorch shot was all the rage for a short while, the long range knock back and combined knock back with airblast can mean some crazy amounts of control, losing your secondary can hurt but pyro isn't exactly hurting for damage and the rapidly applying afterburn to multiple targets at a distance has it's benefits.[/QUOTE] Even then you can easily apply afterburn to multiple enemies even faster with the detonator,hitting someone after airblasting then requires some good aim,thing that if someone have,he'd probaly use the flare to just kill the enemy right way.

[QUOTE=NekuMisage;37071613]Even then you can easily apply afterburn to multiple enemies even faster with the detonator,hitting someone after airblasting then requires some good aim,thing that if someone have,he'd probaly use the flare to just kill the enemy right way.[/QUOTE] Hitting a target you airblasted isn't hard, at all, normally you use airblast to get an easy hit in because it forces your target into a predictable line of movement. I post in weapon balance threads too much.

[QUOTE=NekuMisage;37071109][b]Heavy:[/b] [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/4c/Backpack_Huo_Long_Heatmaker.png/90px-Backpack_Huo_Long_Heatmaker.png[/IMG] 4 Ammo per sec,just this. I'm guessing it's main purpose was to give out near spies,but losing all your clip in less than 20 Secs is just ridiculous for a heavy,at least it increases the usage of shotguns but I see little to no reason to use it over the stock minigun.[/QUOTE] I really like the idea behind the Huo Long Heatmaker, more anti-spy and anti-scout capability (classes that generally have to be really close to kill a heavy and are good at it if the heavy is distracted) in return for using a lot more ammo, forces you to play more conservatively and keep an eye on ammo. I think the ammo is fine the way it is. [QUOTE=NekuMisage;37071109][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d4/Backpack_Tomislav.png/90px-Backpack_Tomislav.png[/IMG] The recent nerf just made it unusable,the spin up time should be 20%-30% or the firing speed -10%.[/QUOTE] I figure that the idea behind this one now is for stealth and ambush rather than being good at everything as it was before, although I don't really see myself using it too often anymore after the nerf. I'd probably use it on more on close quarters maps where listening to heavies is easier. [QUOTE=NekuMisage;37071109][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/1/14/Backpack_Brass_Beast.png/90px-Backpack_Brass_Beast.png[/IMG] The Move speed while spinning it should be either 30% or less,heavy doesn't need to be a rocketless sentry.[/QUOTE] I figure the main idea behind adding extra weapons to TF2 is to introduce new class combat philosophies that are distinct (to an extent). Brass Beast is a nice contrast to other miniguns in that you trade your already low mobility for even more firepower, I'd rather it remain different enough from the regular minigun. [QUOTE=NekuMisage;37071109][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/5/5d/Backpack_Warrior%27s_Spirit.png/90px-Backpack_Warrior%27s_Spirit.png[/IMG] Melee is rarely used as heavy,giving it a health decrease just makes it a Heavy-Boxing only weapon.[/QUOTE] I agree that this weapon doesn't seem very good at the moment, the only time you're really going to be using melee as a heavy is if you catch an enemy off-guard (you're so slow that it's unlikely you can melee an enemy that is aware of you), but if you take them out with your minigun, it saves time and is more reliable, as well as allows you to take out more enemies. So basically you just get -20 hp for a weapon that you don't use often anyway.

[QUOTE=mooman1080;37071518]Sure I can, as a main pyro the scorch shot was all the rage for a short while, the long range knock back and combined knock back with airblast can mean some crazy amounts of control, losing your secondary can hurt but pyro isn't exactly hurting for damage and the rapidly applying afterburn to multiple targets at a distance has it's benefits.[/QUOTE] Not as beneficial as 90 damage from range or the shotguns consistency though. Using the SS means you give up the ability to do any truly threatening damage from beyond close range and that puts you at a serious disadvantage against someone who knows how to fight a Pyro well. Also, from what I've seen if you're good with the Detonator you can do everything the Scorch Shot can [editline]3rd August 2012[/editline] Also now that I've had time to think about it I've come to the conclusion that the new minigun is completely OP

I've never really understood why people like the knockback on the Scorch Shot (same with FaN), both Pyro (and Scout) are most effective at close range so the knockback just makes it take longer for an enemy to get close, I mean I could understand wanting the knockback if you're on the retreat but both Pyro and Scout are relatively fast, and the Pyro's airblast already provides good support for retreat. I think knockback would make the most sense on something like the Huntsman for Sniper (or some bow/crossbow variant for Sniper), since it's generally used at medium range and you don't want your enemy to get any closer. Then again, I don't play Pyro nearly as much as some of you so if there's some good brilliant use for long-range knockback on Pyro, please explain.

[QUOTE=G-Guy;37072645]I've never really understood why people like the knockback on the Scorch Shot (same with FaN), both Pyro (and Scout) are most effective at close range so the knockback just makes it take longer for an enemy to get close, I mean I could understand wanting the knockback if you're on the retreat but both Pyro and Scout are relatively fast, and the Pyro's airblast already provides good support for retreat. I think knockback would make the most sense on something like the Huntsman for Sniper (or some bow/crossbow variant for Sniper), since it's generally used at medium range and you don't want your enemy to get any closer. Then again, I don't play Pyro nearly as much as some of you so if there's some good brilliant use for long-range knockback on Pyro, please explain.[/QUOTE] mainly for control and disorientation really, not much else to it, also if you knock back someone you can close that distance easily.

You want the liberty launcher nerfed? Are you fucking crazy? Only a fool would use it. You're gimping yourself of a rocket just to be slightly better against pyros and scouts? This shit doesn't need to be nerfed at all. No competent soldier would ever use it.

[QUOTE=Jimmyjohn;37072791]mainly for control and disorientation really, not much else to it, also if you knock back someone you can close that distance easily.[/QUOTE] Honestly I think that unless you're fighting enemies that have their backs to walls, using the Scorch Shot is only going to make it harder to close distance. It knocks enemies back and lights them on fire, if the enemy is lit on fire he probably won't want to take a battle against a Pyro at a closer range and would probably rather fall back temporarily for back-up or healing. With Scorch Shot you won't get very good medium/long range damage either even though it's meant for medium/long range (unless the enemy likes to be clustered) so you'll have to rely more on ambush for close range battles (involving your primary and melee). You wouldn't really be able to take advantage of the disorientation at medium/long range and airblast already covers close range. The disorientation would only be useful against snipers, but even then all the other flare guns are good enough at that and give you more capability.

Haha and he wants to buff the babyface blaster, the scorch shot and the loch n load, my god this dude is hilarious.

the Scottish Gaelic Claidheamh Mòr is "claymore" in English, so you can call it that despite Valve's foreign language fetish. These ideas, the OP's, are pretty well thought-out. I would disagree on the Kunai as its backstab also acts like a health pickup (thus removing flames). It could safely use less of a health penalty though. And for the Claymore, I think it should also pick up heads.

also what the fuck brass beast is fine, learn to stand on the cart.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;37072996]also what the fuck brass beast is fine, learn to stand on the cart.[/QUOTE] This, this, this. Brassbeast is GREAT, its all about the timing tho.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;37072996]also what the fuck brass beast is fine, learn to stand on the cart.[/QUOTE] What if there is no cart?

[QUOTE=brenz;37073096]What if there is no cart?[/QUOTE] Then you should be turning corners.

[QUOTE=Scarabix;37072984]Haha and he wants to buff the babyface blaster, the scorch shot and the loch n load, my god this dude is hilarious.[/QUOTE] Agreed on Blaster, SS sucks compared to Pyro's other secondaries, LnL is in the weird postion of being broken in that it one shots Scouts but is worse than stock pretty much everywhere else [QUOTE=Scarabix;37072996]also what the fuck brass beast is fine, learn to stand on the cart.[/QUOTE] Payload isn't a balanced game mode to begin with, even then murdering your own mobility for additional damage isn't worth it as the Minigun does more than enough already

Say hello to the most useless weapon in the game. [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/4/40/Backpack_Neon_Annihilator.png/250px-Backpack_Neon_Annihilator.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Suttles;37073086]Brassbeast is GREAT, its all about the timing tho.[/QUOTE] I think Heavy in general is all about timing and decision making, knowing when to take a fight, when to wait, when to reposition, etc., and trying to take enemies by surprise as often as possible so that they can't take advantage of the Heavy's slowness or poor long-range capability. That's why I like using the GRU the most for heavy, gives you a lot more options for when/where to fight.

[QUOTE=G-Guy;37073152]I think Heavy in general is all about timing and decision making, knowing when to take a fight, when to wait, when to reposition, etc., and trying to take enemies by surprise as often as possible so that they can't take advantage of the Heavy's slowness or poor long-range capability. That's why I like using the GRU the most for heavy, gives you a lot more options for when/where to fight.[/QUOTE] Gru + family business = most fun you can have as a heavy.

[QUOTE=brenz;37073096]What if there is no cart?[/QUOTE] then your movement reduction isn't cheaply compensated and your ammo isn't being instantly refilled, which means you should probably consider using a minigun that isn't the huo long or the brass beast [editline]4th August 2012[/editline] Like, I mean, really. Riding the cart with the brass beast is so powerful it justifies the weapon being unreliable in most if not all situations.

[QUOTE=Suttles;37073188]Gru + family business = most fun you can have as a heavy.[/QUOTE] I've generally been more of a Sandvich Heavy, fights often take a chunk of your health as Heavy since you're so slow and big, and I like to have a lot of freedom as Heavy rather than running around for medkits or waiting for medics.