The "Weapon Fixing Megathread" - We fix weapons' stats and get in fights

[DatWut?]

Hello everyone,
I thought we would "need" a thread to collect ideas for how to fix some weapons' stats, as many of the weapons are either broken by being far too useful or near useless.
So I want you to post ideas how to fix a weapon, and maybe also add a reason [I]why [/I]you want to change said weapon or what the change would achieve.

Let's start with the Medics melee weapons: Everything is a straight upgrade to the Bonesaw, so how about this:
Make the Solemn Vow's "see enemy health" a base stat, but disable it on the Übersaw and the Amputator.
Give the Solemn Vow a new mechanic: transfer your Übercharge to another Medic and make it deal less damage (it has "Do no harm" written on it after all).

With these 2 changes, you'd balance the melee weapons and none of them would be a straight upgrade anymore.

Also, I intend to post the results of this thread (the ideas/suggestions people gave their approval to) on SPUF or e-mail them to the TF2 team, so please, try to be as constructive as possible.

[Exparagus]

[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/5/58/Backpack_Half-Zatoichi.png[/t]
No random critical hits

Would that make it balanced?

[LightFlock]

Idk if we were just doing medic melees but okay. (Also isn't this what the original weapon ideas thread is for?)

[B]Winger[/B]
+20% Damage dealt
+30% Firing speed
-60% clip size

EDIT:
[QUOTE=Exparagus;40604863][t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/5/58/Backpack_Half-Zatoichi.png[/t]
No random critical hits

Would that make it balanced?[/QUOTE]

Personally I say no. As someone who uses this on Soldier, the crits are fine. It needs a demoman-specific downside.

[AlphaAGENT]

[img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c9/Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png/100px-Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/2d/Item_icon_Postal_Pummeler.png/100px-Item_icon_Postal_Pummeler.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/7/7b/Item_icon_Flare_Gun.png/100px-Item_icon_Flare_Gun.png[/img]
+ Crits on Already Burning Enemies
- All Crits on Burning enemies become mini crits used With Degreaser

There, was that really so hard TF2 team?

[LightFlock]

[QUOTE=AlphaAGENT;40604877][img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/c/c9/Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png/100px-Item_icon_Axtinguisher.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/2d/Item_icon_Postal_Pummeler.png/100px-Item_icon_Postal_Pummeler.png[/img] [img]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/7/7b/Item_icon_Flare_Gun.png/100px-Item_icon_Flare_Gun.png[/img]
+ Crits on Already Burning Enemies
- Mini Crits when used With Degreaser

There, was that really so hard TF2 team?[/QUOTE]

Better yet.

[B]The Degreaser[/B]
+stats we already have
-stats we already have
-Forced critical hits only do mini-crit damage

[AlphaAGENT]

[QUOTE=LightFlock;40604893]Better yet.

[B]The Degreaser[/B]
+stats we already have
-stats we already have
-Forced critical hits only do mini-crit damage[/QUOTE]
What about the Kritzkrieg?

[LightFlock]

[QUOTE=AlphaAGENT;40604903]What about the Kritzkrieg?[/QUOTE]

You could either make exceptions, or just give them the "Deal with it" like with the CM5K

[Deodorant]

[B]The Gunslinger[/B]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fd/Pictogram_info.png/15px-Pictogram_info.png[/IMG] (Compared to existing stats)
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Mini-sentry damage is affected by ramp-up at close range.
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] +15% movement speed on wielder.
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Mini-sentry damage is affected by falloff at long range.
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/15px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Mini-sentries can only rotate 135° in each direction (has a 90° blind spot)

For those who don't keep a meticulous record of everything I ever say, I think the Gunslinger is more or less balanced but badly designed. The concept is cool, but the current existing stats makes it feel unrewarding to play with and unfun to play against. The suggested stats would hopefully make it more reliant on the Engineer placing his sentries intelligently and fighting alongside them, and make the sentries feel less cheap to get killed by.

[DatWut?]

[QUOTE=LightFlock;40604868]Idk if we were just doing medic melees but okay.[/QUOTE]
Nope, all weapons.

[QUOTE=LightFlock;40604868](Also isn't this what the original weapon ideas thread is for?)[/QUOTE]
If I went by the threads' name, I'd think it's for suggesting completely new stats.

[QUOTE=LightFlock;40604893]Better yet.

[B]The Degreaser[/B]
+stats we already have
-stats we already have
-Forced critical hits only do mini-crit damage[/QUOTE]
So if you play Gas Jockey and use the Shotgun and a Medic Critcharges you, you're only allowed to spill out mini-crits? Sorry but no, that doesn't sound good.

I'd rather:
[B]The Degreaser[/B]
+65% faster weapon switch time
- +25% airblast cost
-reflected projectiles do no turn into mini-crits
(-25% afterburn damage penalty)
(-10% damage penalty)

Not sure if we'd still need the last two, but with these stats, the Degreaser would be perfect for being able to quickly switch to your primary from any other weapon to deflect an incoming rocket, at the price for less damage. If you want more damage with deflecting, use stock and overthink your actions.

For the Axtinguisher I thouhgt of this, but it's a rather meh idea, at least I think it is:
[B]The Axtinguisher[/B]
100% [U]mini-[/U]critical hit vs burning players
[U]+On hit: target takes increased afterburn damage
+On hit: target can not be extinguished until burn duration time ends
[/U]-50% damage vs non-burning players
No critical hits vs non-burning players

I underlined my changes. With that, you'd still deal more damage on burning players than with the normal axe. In addition, the Axtinguisher plays the critswing animation and sound randomly, and while your target is burning, you can still deal a randomcrit to your target (just like any other melee).

[Bynine]

[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fa/Backpack_Degreaser.png/90px-Backpack_Degreaser.png[/IMG]

+10% movespeed on wearer
-25% burn damage penalty
-10% damage penalty

[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/dc/Backpack_The_Gas_Jockey%27s_Gear_Bundle.png/100px-Backpack_The_Gas_Jockey%27s_Gear_Bundle.png[/IMG]

65% faster weapon switch
+10% bullet damage vulnerability on wearer

There.

Note: This also fixes the Axtinguisher.

[mphayes97]

From Selbi's balancing videos:
[B]The Degreaser[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]65% faster weapon switch
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-10% damage penalty
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-75% afterburn duration

Just enough time to get the axe or flare.

[Deodorant]

Also, I may be asking for dumbvotes here, but... Is puff-n-sting really overpowered? I personally don't find myself getting killed by it all that often, and when I do it feels analogous to a backstab; I can't do anything to defend myself once I've been ignited, but I [I]could[/I] have prevented it by not letting the Pyro get the drop of me in melee range.

I've never actually used the Axtignuisher, mind you, but from an outsider perspective I think playing puff-n-sting Pyro looks about as difficult as playing Spy, the difference being that you have a bit more health and regular firepower and the ability to airblast but can't disguise, go invisible or quite instakill high-health targets.

[DatWut?]

[QUOTE=mphayes97;40605101]From Selbi's balancing videos:
[B]The Degreaser[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]65% faster weapon switch
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-10% damage penalty
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-75% afterburn duration

Just enough time to get the axe or flare.[/QUOTE]

The Axtinguisher (or Pummeler) is in fact the problem a lot of people, inculding me, have with the Degreaser.

[Magic Scrumpy]

[QUOTE=LightFlock;40604893]Better yet.

[B]The Degreaser[/B]
+stats we already have
-stats we already have
-Forced critical hits only do mini-crit damage[/QUOTE]

How about a set bonus?

DEGREASTINGUISHER
-Degreaser
-Axtinguisher/Flare Gun (either one)

SET BONUS: No airblast

imagine all the rage

[DatWut?]

[QUOTE=Deodorant;40605113]Also, I may be asking for dumbvotes here, but... Is puff-n-sting really overpowered? I personally don't find myself getting killed by it all that often, and when I do it feels analogous to a backstab; I can't do anything to defend myself once I've been ignited, but I [I]could[/I] have prevented it by not letting the Pyro get the drop of me in melee range.

I've never actually used the Axtignuisher, mind you, but from an outsider perspective I think playing puff-n-sting Pyro looks about as difficult as playing Spy, the difference being that you have a bit more health and regular firepower but can't disguise, go invisible or quite instakill high-health targets.[/QUOTE]

The problem with puff-n-sting is that you can walk around a corner where you suddenly meet a Pyro. You're dead. Fact.
Also, should the Pyro miss the swing, he'll just airblast you into a corner/wall. That's the bad gameplay the Degreaser features. At least I call it bad gameplay.

[OzzyCockroach]

The 'Degreaser + Axtinguisher combo Fixing Megathread' - We fix that and forget the rest.

[Magic Scrumpy]

[QUOTE=DatWut?;40605138]The problem with puff-n-sting is that you can walk around a corner where you suddenly meet a Pyro. You're dead. Fact.
Also, should the Pyro miss the swing, he'll just airblast you into a corner/wall. That's the bad gameplay the Degreaser features. At least I call it bad gameplay.[/QUOTE]

And then people (degreastinguisher pyro mains) wonder why everyone calls their loadout crutchy.
They then say that it's some ridiculously easy thing to counter and you're bad for being killed by it.

[AbeX300]

[QUOTE=DatWut?;40604826]Hello everyone,
I thought we would "need" a thread to collect ideas for how to fix some weapons' stats, as many of the weapons are either broken by being far too useful or near useless.
So I want you to post ideas how to fix a weapon, and maybe also add a reason [I]why [/I]you want to change said weapon or what the change would achieve.

Let's start with the Medics melee weapons: Everything is a straight upgrade to the Bonesaw, so how about this:
Make the Solemn Vow's "see enemy health" a base stat, but disable it on the Übersaw and the Amputator.
Give the Solemn Vow a new mechanic: transfer your Übercharge to another Medic and make it deal less damage (it has "Do no harm" written on it after all).

With these 2 changes, you'd balance the melee weapons and none of them would be a straight upgrade anymore.

Also, I intend to post the results of this thread (the ideas/suggestions people gave their approval to) on SPUF or e-mail them to the TF2 team, so please, try to be as constructive as possible.[/QUOTE]

Oh this is going to be [b]FUN[/b]~!

But I'm going to start slowly, starting with the Solemn Vow.

I think either making all enemies be able to see your health (maybe even your Syringe Gun ammo or your UberCharge (might be a lil' bit too extreme)), or like you suggested, reduce the damage for the Do No Harm motto, would be enough to make it balanced.

[DatWut?]

[QUOTE=OzzyCockroach;40605171]The 'Degreaser + Axtinguisher combo Fixing Megathread' - We fix that and forget the rest.[/QUOTE]
There probably is a reason that combo gets mentioned so soon into the thread.

[B]The Splendid Screen[/B]
Can deal charge impact damage at any range
+70% increase in charge impact damage
+20% fire damage resistance on wearer
+15% explosive damage resistance on wearer
[U]-heads taken with the Eyelander do not increase the impact damage
-guarantees only mini-crits after a charge[/U]

As of now, you can one-hit a Scout with the shieldbash alone, given that you have 5 heads. You can even quickly kill an overhealed Soldier (or full-health Heavy) if you have 5 heads; the shieldbash would deal 130 damage, plus 195 damage from the Eyelander's Crit, making it a total of 325 damage
In case you're using the Skullcutter, you could also combo-kill a Soldier, or even a Heavy:
80 damage (shield) + 234 damage (Skullcutter) = 314 damage

[editline]11th May 2013[/editline]

Talking about charging and melee weapons:
[B]The Claidheamh Mòr[/B]
0.5 sec increase in charge duration
No random critical hits
-15 max health on wearer
[U]+On kill: 66% of your charge meter is restored[/U]

[Manibogi]

[QUOTE=DatWut?;40605250]There probably is a reason that combo gets mentioned so soon into the thread.

[B]The Splendid Screen[/B]
Can deal charge impact damage at any range
+70% increase in charge impact damage
+20% fire damage resistance on wearer
+15% explosive damage resistance on wearer
-heads taken with the Eyelander do not increase the impact damage
-guarantees only mini-crits after a charge

As of now, you can one-hit a Scout with the shieldbash alone, given that you have 5 heads. You can even quickly kill an overhealed Soldier (or full-health Heavy) if you have 5 heads; the shieldbash would deal 130 damage, plus 195 damage from the Eyelander's Crit, making it a total of 325 damage
In case you're using the Skullcutter, you could also combo-kill a Soldier, or even a Heavy:
80 damage (shield) + 234 damage (Skullcutter) = 314 damage
[/QUOTE]

Honestly getting 5 heads isn't a cakewalk.

[DatWut?]

[QUOTE=Manibogi;40605276]Honestly getting 5 heads isn't a cakewalk.[/QUOTE]

While that might be true, 80 damage is enough. Especially that those 80 damage happen at ANY range.

[mphayes97]

[B]The Winger[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]+15% damage bonus
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]Crits whenever it would normally mini-crit
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-65% clip size
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]No random critical hits
([I]Use it with the Soda Popper for Hype-crits[/I])

[B]The Sun-on-a-Stick[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]On hit: target is engulfed in flames
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]100% critical hit vs burning players
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]100% slower swing speed
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-25% damage penalty
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]No random critical hits

[B]The Liberty Launcher[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]Increased vertical push force
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]+40% projectile speed
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-25% damage penalty
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-25% slip size

[B]The Cow Mangler 5000[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]Does not require ammo
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]Alt-fire: A charged shot that mini-crits players and disables buildings for 4 sec
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]+25% clip size
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-20% damage penalty
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-80% damage penalty to buildings ([I]This is what it is now, just worded differently[/I])
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]No random critical hits

[B]The Gunboats[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]-60% damage taken from rocket jumps
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]-75% reduction in push force taken from damage
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]Deals 3x falling damage to the player you land on
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fd/Pictogram_info.png/15px-Pictogram_info.png[/t]The Mantreads are a reskin of the Gunboats.

[B]The Equalizer[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/f/fd/Pictogram_info.png/15px-Pictogram_info.png[/t]The Escape Plan and the Equalizer are remerged
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]No random critical hits

[B]The Homewrecker[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]+100% damage vs buildings
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]-40% damage taken from sentries
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]-75% reduction in push force taken by damage from sentries
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]Damage removes sappers
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-50% damage vs players
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-25% slower move speed on wearer when active

[Big Bob]

[B]The Phlogistinator[/B]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/IMG] Does not exist

[4444]

[img]http://i44.tinypic.com/2aeni0.png[/img]

Fixed it.

[Dat Lobo]

I'm going to copy some of my suggestions from selbi's thread (seriously don't see why you guys aren't actually posting there, he actually tests out the suggestions...)

Natascha

Natascha A: 20% Slower spin up time.

Natascha B: 20% Reduced damage.

That's it. I feel either of those would make it actually useful again.

The Direct Hit

DH A: On contact, make it have the splash radius of the Loch N' Load landing a shot.

DH B: Increased hitbox, akin to that of the arrow from the Huntsman.

[Zadrave]

[B]The Axtinguisher[/B]
100% critical hit vs burning players
-50% damage vs non-burning players
No critical hits vs non-burning players
-20% slower weapon switch

Bye bye deagreaser + axtinguisher pyros, and it also encourages to use it more tactically.

[B]The Dalokohs Bar
[/B]For 30 seconds when eaten:
Adds +50 max health
Health lost comes back as ammo
-10% damage from ranged sources while active

[DatWut?]

[QUOTE=mphayes97;40605406]
[B]The Sun-on-a-Stick[/B]
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]On hit: target is engulfed in flames
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/2/29/Pictogram_plus.png/16px-Pictogram_plus.png[/t]100% critical hit vs burning players
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]100% slower swing speed
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]-25% damage penalty
[t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/t]No random critical hits[/QUOTE]

You couldn't attack at all with that thing.

[AbeX300]

-snip-

[NO LOAFING!]

[B]Mini-Sentries![/B]
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Bullets no longer inflict boosted knockback/push force
[IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/6/60/Pictogram_minus.png/16px-Pictogram_minus.png[/IMG] Does not regenerate health while constructing

There, now mini-sentries are a lot less obnoxious to fight against, but not nerfed into oblivion.

First is getting rid of the knockback boost - mini-sentries now deal the same knockback as any other bullet firing weapon in the game, instead of having the crazy high area denial knockback that other sentries have. No more shutting out jumping Soldiers and Demomen!

Second is the removal of health regen while building, which made the sentries unkillable as some classes (i.e. Scout), even if they were deployed [I]right in front of you[/I], until they became active and started shooting. Now Engineers can’t plop a Sentry down directly into an enemy Scout’s face and still win, but they haven't been nerfed too hard, since they still start out with full health.

[VintageCat]

[QUOTE=DatWut?;40606068]You couldn't attack at all with that thing.[/QUOTE]
Actually not, there's just a long delay between swings