Let's balance the weapons! What do you say? - Games

Yes, I'm sort of new here. Yes, I've been lurking for a while. Yes, you probably disagree with my opinions. Let's do this anyway. A list of all the weapons that need balancing, and what (in my opinion) could be done to balance them. Keep in mind (particularly on melee weapons) that I firmly believe in balancing them with the default weapon. I also think "no random crits" is an awful excuse for a con (except for crit-based weapons), and I do my best to reintroduce random crits and keep the weapon balanced. Force-A-Nature - This one is tough. It's not nearly as versatile as the Scattergun, but that's sort of the point. Give me a more reliable third jump (or a fourth jump) and we'll talk. Shortstop - Another tough one. Tighter shot spread? Even faster firing speed / reload? Remove the ammo pool shared with the Pistol? Definitely open to suggestions. Bonk! - Decrease the recharge timer. It's the least useful of the secondary Scout weapons. Mad Milk - Either decrease the health regenerated a little (60 to 65%) or decrease it even more but add the ability to overheal. Direct Hit - Another weapon that simply can't live up to the versatility of the default. Perhaps buff damage against buildings, or re-add the "mini-crit on any airborne enemy" deal. It certainly made it dangerous to jump around a DH soldier. Rocket Jumper - I'm very much of the opinion that the "training" weapons should hold up somewhat in combat. Remove the damage vulnerabilities. Buff Banner - Decrease required damage slightly (500 or 550). It usually just takes too long to use in combat. Gunboats - Decrease self-damage slightly (65%). I know it was taken down from 75% because of roaming Soldier divebombs in competitive play, but I don't see why it can't be a bit more relevant. Battalion's Backup - I think fall damage should count (if the damage is increased), but otherwise it's fine as is. Equalizer - Remove either the speed bonus or attack bonus. Or decrease the bonuses on both. It should either be an escape weapon or a sneaky last-ditch effort, not both. Pain Train - Either "fix" bullet vulnerabilities (as in, force it to only apply to actual bullet weapons) or decrease the vulnerability (and reword the description). Degreaser - Nerf the airblast. It's a midway between the other two flamethrowers (possibility for more damage with weapon swap, airblast capabilities), but the damage nerf isn't enough. The airblast should either take more ammo or shoot less often. Axtinguisher - Here's where I'm going to get burned. (yo ho ho) I KNOW it's supposed to be an upgrade, but I still want the melees balanced. So take the Pyro melee suggestions a bit lightly (unless you wanted to buff the Fire Axe somehow). Make the damage against burning enemies minicrits, but re-add random crits. Homewrecker - Provide a bullet resistance when wielded, so you have a better chance at dealing with lone Sentries. Powerjack - Remove damage buff, re-add random crits. Conceivably remove overheal possibility (as it's the only weapon currently that does this, unless you consider the Mad Milk suggestion above). Adjust the effects so you do indeed have to kill them with the Powerjack, not just carry it when they die. Back Scratcher - Remove damage buff. Easy. Scottish Resistance - Invulnerable stickies (no longer destroyed by bullets). Conceivably remove sticky-jumping (not too sure about this one, minefields would be easier but mobility is destroyed... though it's a defensive weapon regardless). Sticky Jumper - As Rocket Jumper (remove vulnerabilities), but take care to remove damage on primary-slot weapons as well. Loch-n-Load - Remove self-damage increase? Have grenades explode on contact regardless of target? Add exactly one bounce (with explosion capability)? This one's tough, too. Pain Train - as above. Claidheamh Mor - Remove the health penalty, re-add random crits. Or increase the charge time even further instead of the health nerf. Ullapool Caber - Allow random crits on the exploded stick (not the explosion itself). Might as well. Sandvich - Again, this won't be pretty. I still want the Shotgun to be a valid choice. Remove health pack recharging entirely, and increase the time required to eat (perhaps also decrease the health added to an ally). Dalokohs Bar - Add droppable bar (+50 base health on allies). Increase health on self (up to 100 from 60?). Carry more than one bar simultaneously. Something. Buffalo Steak Sandvich - Change the dropped version. Not sure how to handle this one. KGB - Decrease swing speed further. GRU - Increase self-damage, decrease speed increase, block/reduce Medic healing abilities. (Not all of these at the same time.) Warrior's Spirit - Decrease damage or remove more health. Fists of Steel - Reduce damage resistance slightly (50%). Also, I think that your move speed should be slower (you're carrying around giant fists of steel, neh?). Frontier Justice - Have four shots loaded instead of three. Maybe. This is a tough call. Wrangler - Shield blocks less damage (50%), but the cooldown is less (1-2 seconds). Gunslinger - Remove three-hit combo, re-add random crits. (Too damn complicated.) I would like to see the ability to heal your Mini-Sentry as well. Southern Hospitality - Lower base damage (it checks for Spies, that's enough of a buff) and enable random crits. Adjust fire vulnerability as needed depending on the base damage alterations. Jag - To be honest, I think the idea is bad. It doesn't help much in practice... instead, decrease building time and increase damage slightly (to compensate for the nerf of the SH I proposed). Blutsauger - Change the nerf to healing rate (only -1 per second? alter the ramp so it takes twice as long to heal?) Crossbow - Let's just make the arrows something other than Huntsman arrows and I'll call it good enough. Kritzkrieg - I know this weapon is older than dirt, but why not extend the time for an Ubercharge or buff the charge rate slightly? Ubersaw - Once again, much contested. Decrease the swing rate further. Add only 10, 15, or 20% ubercharge. Only add the ubercharge if it's an Ubersaw kill. Work with those. Amputator - Decrease health, decrease swing rate, do something. Sydney Sleeper - Enable random crits, enable piercing. (Both things it had before a patch.) Barring that, allow for any headshot to apply Jarate, regardless of current charge status (dealing normal, non-crit damage, of course). Jarate - Increase recharge time. It's just too damn useful. Razorback - So much could be done. Since a health bonus is taken, add a recharge, add some other kind of resistance, or even add an active mode that protects you from more damage. Danger Shield - Increase health buff to +30 (prevents instant headshots without a set bonus). Tribalman's Shiv - Increase damage somewhat, or increase bleed duration. Bushwacka - Decrease normal damage (so, make it a sort of Axtinguisher weapon). Fire vulnerability can be increased / removed as needed, on par with the damage nerf. L'etranger - I'd like to see it as a much quieter weapon, to improve its abilities. A small damage buff wouldn't hurt either. Your Eternal Reward - If they ever get the killicons disabled, that'd be the perfect thing for this weapon. Quick item set rundown (assuming hats remain included, unless otherwise noted) - Special Delivery - Add some sort of weakness (if the hat stays). Almost anything would do. Tank Buster - Increase sentry damage resistance. Gas Jockey's Gear - Fix the bullet vulnerability (as with the Pain Train). Expert's Ordnance - Fix the fire resistance (it's currently barely anything with the Targe equipped). Hibernating Bear - Change it to Minicrit resistance, and increase the percentage (as it's currently a non-issue). Add a downside. Medieval Medic - Add a downside. So, massive wall of text. But here's hoping that it'll spark discussion. Agree or argue with me about anything you like!

Half those weapons are already perfect as they are.

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26990923]Half those weapons are already perfect as they are.[/QUOTE] Like? I am not doubting your opinions, merely asking for clarification.

Kritzkrieg and FJ for a start. And Jarate. There are more, but there are just too many that are in an ideal position right now. I mean really, there are only a few big problems, such as the no downside poly sets. Weak weapons are OK, since they can be sorted later- overpowered stuff is annoying, but there's not much about right now tbh.

Jarate is perfectly balanced.

Gunslinger - Remove three-hit combo, re-add random crits. (Too damn complicated.) I would like to see the ability to heal your Mini-Sentry as well. The three hit combo is better. Random crits would make it too freaking OP with the Frontier justice Healing minisentires is uesless. Most would ignore it and just replace the damn thing anyways seeing as they can be built twice without need to refill. That and they are just too damn powerful in a good spot. Honestly, most of this, if not all, is completed unneeded. You either have no concept of how the weapons are used or how they effect the game.

Too much random crits enabled again. IMO i have to disagree on training weapons being used in combat. They're meant for TRAINING. TRAINING. And i have to suggest a small buff to the Loch-n-Load: +25% damage instead of 10% Explodes on contact to anything. +20% projectile speed -30% splash damage +10% splash damage range basically you can splash people with it and maybe finish them off, but it's just way more useful when using direct hits.

Maybe a buff to damage done, but the loch and load is pretty useful. you just have to get used to the faster projectiles.

BECAUSE DISABLING RANDOM CRITS= BALANCED FOR VALVE thats why most weapons' downgrades are no random crits. :downs:

Ullapool Caber- If you successfully take someone down with you in the explosion recieve 72 virgins Now its balanced

Increase bleed on shiv? Are you serious? It was decreased because everyone was complaining about how deadly it was. I doubt your opinions.

I'm glad I don't see Flaregun in the OP. One of the most balanced items, compared what it replaces, in the entire game.

Kritzkrieg doesn't need anything, it's perfectly fine. the thing about the gunslinger 3 hit crit being "too complicated". BAHAHAHAHAA. All you have to do is hold mouse1 and land 3 consecutive hits, the third one is a crit.

Kritzkrieg is balanced, maybe... but it's not as useful in most situations. I just want to bring it slightly up to par so it can be a bit more relevant in the slightly-above-average pub game. Frontier Justice is awful if you ever leave your base, surely I'm not the only one that sees this? For turtle engineers, it's fine, but it could use another shot. Bear in mind that the Jarate nerf is minor. It's a massive advantage if you connect with a large group. It's iffy in close-range (even with the Bushwacka). The SMG is generally only useful in one-on-ones (or finishing off an enemy close to death at range). I'm just trying to even out the versatility a bit. Not sure how the addition of random crits to the Gunslinger overpowers the FJ. Mini-sentries aren't nearly as powerful as you think they are, and healing them doesn't take up 100 metal - a matter of convenience. I like training weapons! They're not even super useful as training weapons anyway. And when was the last time a Shotgun soldier or melee-only Demoman was overpowered in a game? Unfortunately the Loch-n-Load is another Direct Hit - great if you hit, but you're boned if you miss. Your suggestion, Sabrina, isn't bad. EDIT: Only saw the first few posts. Just a second. [editline]26th December 2010[/editline] Pretender, the Shiv dealt nearly normal damage and then stacked on bleed so quickly that it equaled the damage of the Kukri within about 2 seconds (and then you bled for four more seconds). The Shiv as-is is damn near useless... if the bleed is increased, then it won't be overpowered as it was before, as you have a better chance of finding health. Thanks, Keychain. Ian, my point is that it comes up in play so rarely that it may as well not be a feature. I'm always in favor of random crits, particularly in this case where it's an oddball addition to a weapon.

FJ/ pistol/ Gunslinger works so beautifully it would make a strong man weep. Shotty is better for base dwellers.

Shortstop - Another tough one. Tighter shot spread? Even faster firing speed / reload? Remove the ammo pool shared with the Pistol? Definitely open to suggestions. implying the shorstop is underpowered [editline]26th December 2010[/editline] Medieval Medic - Add a downside. you people need to stop thinking of the entire bonus and think of the actual weapons' downsides holy fuck

You just suck The pyro melee weapons are supposed to be strong because his class is close quarters-you'll take a load of damage anyway because the flamethrower and the melee weapons work best at close range; it's a matter of accuracy Ubersaw is fine-attack for a quick Uber boost and find a partner to charge; it supports the supporting/pushing role of the medic Amputator needs a con-but already you're a fucking easy target taunting and you're dead if your teammates die Bonk is situational really-use it to get behind the front lines then fuck with the team-supports flanking Mad Milk can be used like jarate-throw and run; it's initial usefulness is based on primary weapon accuracy Direct Hit-It was MADE to reward airshooting enemies, essentially accurate firing, the damage boost is great for attacking sentries and it doesn't need a buff; If anything it shouldn't one hit kill classes (at full health) at close range, annoying as fuck when your a spy or scout-Rewards spamming imo Caber and the sword-Supports hit and run and same problem as Direct Hit; doesn't at all support demolition of buildings Bushwacka is fucking op as hell and it doesn't support sniping OR the set-give it a speed decrease when carried like the original Razorback Frontier Justice-Decrease reload rates

I have never found FJ to be relevant with the Gunslinger. That's just me. The Shortstop IS underpowered. You can no longer pump out 100-damage shots, and in exchange for a bit more range. It's not useless, but it's no Scattergun. Okay, actual downsides of the Medieval Medic: Lose the Syringe Gun, your best close-range defense. Gain long-range power and healing capabilities. Gain a healing taunt. Lose nothing. It definitely needs some sort of downside; the lack of a Syringe Gun isn't enough.

The random crits were indeed a part of the game for a reason. First of all, the game wouldn't be completely skill, you might get lucky and get revenge on some pro dominating you. This was what Valve planned when they made the game. I say make the shiv more of like the flamethrower: it makes the enemies more likely to retreat and find health. The bleed damage should be slightly decreased, but the bleed time should be increased. This way it would encourage the enemies to retreat and give the SNiper a breather. As they run away, the Sniper has a better chance of finishing him off with the sniper. The Bushwacka is like the Sniper's puff&sting. And the airblast must be seriously nerfed. I say let the airblast deflect projectiles, but not players! A god damn carbon dioxide blast could maybe push players back a little or slow them down but not throw them into the air!

[QUOTE=xpod1;26991526] Medieval Medic - Add a downside. you people need to stop thinking of the entire bonus and think of the actual weapons' downsides holy fuck[/QUOTE] This is only appropriate for the original poly sets, where a hat can offer a no downside advantage. And I can't play without the needler. It's far, far too useful and outstrips the crossbow.

[QUOTE=Sabrina;26991635]The random crits were indeed a part of the game for a reason. First of all, the game wouldn't be completely skill, you might get lucky and get revenge on some pro dominating you. This was what Valve planned when they made the game. I say make the shiv more of like the flamethrower: it makes the enemies more likely to retreat and find health. The bleed damage should be slightly decreased, but the bleed time should be increased. This way it would encourage the enemies to retreat and give the SNiper a breather. As they run away, the Sniper has a better chance of finishing him off with the sniper. The Bushwacka is like the Sniper's puff&sting. And the airblast must be seriously nerfed. I say let the airblast deflect projectiles, but not players! A god damn carbon dioxide blast could maybe push players back a little or slow them down but not throw them into the air![/QUOTE] I definitely agree with the Shiv comments, but I think the airblast has become such an integral part of playing (forced environmental deaths, Uber breakups, general disorientation) that it can't be nerfed that extremely.

[QUOTE=mutated;26991681]I definitely agree with the Shiv comments, but I think the airblast has become such an integral part of playing (forced environmental deaths, Uber breakups, general disorientation) that it can't be nerfed that extremely.[/QUOTE] Then i say nerf the Degreaser or the Axtinguisher. For example, -40% fire damage or ont he Axtinguisher only minicrits. That way the Pyro can't finish every class within 2 seconds for fucks sake.

loch-n-load isnt great even if u good on aim, it still need 2 hits to kill most of things like grenade, u wont kill a heavy without reload, if soldier/demo/heavy has a medic healing, u prob will die unless ur enemy is blind, since u will do 2 hits and reload, while u reloading u will take damage and ur enemy will get healed. loch-n-load is underpowered u cant deny that

[QUOTE=C4rnage;26991781]loch-n-load isnt great even if u good on aim, it still need 2 hits to kill most of things, u wont kill a heavy without reload, if soldier/demo/heavy has a medic healing, u prob will die unless ur enemy is blind, since u will do 2 hits and reload, while u reloading u will take damage and ur enemy he get healed. loch-n-load is underpowered u cant deny that[/QUOTE] qft bro increase damage or add some splash range and damage ffs, the pipe launcher could kill anything with a single clip now couldn't it?

[QUOTE=Overseer No. 2;26991034]I mean really, there are only a few big problems, [b]such as the no downside poly sets.[/b] Weak weapons are OK, since they can be sorted later- overpowered stuff is annoying, but there's not much about right now tbh.[/QUOTE] Actually, the only not balanced polycount set is the scout's I've played with all of them and here's what I think of them Scout: - Shortstop: The most annoying weapon ever implemented in the game, the force-a-nature is ok behind it, it has 2 less ammo than the scattergun, it reloads way faster, does a little bit less damage and makes a sightly unnoticeable slowdown. - The "Mad-Milk": A very good tool indeed, you give up your secondary slot for it, means you have no sidearm, it will leave you with just a bat and whatever you have in the primary slot - The fish: Perfectly balanced, just a reskin of the normal bat, I'm ok with it Set bonus: very unfair, if the person doesn't have the hat it doesn't get the +25 hp buff, which can result very frustrating for the person fighting against it. The soldier: -Black box: Nobody knows how it works, by giving up 1 of your total primary ammo you gain the ability to heal yourself by hitting enemies with your rockets, seems very fair, however, if the set bonus is complete, there's still no diference, you can "resist" a little, VERY little bit of the sentries' damage, and yet if you use your 3 rockets against the sentry you still can't kill it -The Battalion's Backup: Very balanced, take damage instead of doing damage to charge a buff that can protect yourself AND your team very well by giving up your secondary slot -The Set bonus: Read the black box The Sniper: -Sidney sleeper: not only you will gain the hate of the enemy team, but you'll also cover them on jarate by shooting at them, you can't do headshots -Darwin's Shield: +25 hp on wearer by giving up your secondary slot, which is most likely your unique protection at close range? seems very balanced -The Bushwacka: Very good weapon, maybe [b]too good[/b], at the cost of being more vulnerable to fire (20%) it lets you have crits whenever you had to mini-crit, and it also lets you use random crits The set bonus: "Wearer cannot be killed by headshots", that's a very cruel lie, I've tried the set and I've been killed by headshots at 1 hp, the set ONLY protects you from ONE headshot. The Pyro: The Degreaser: By doing less afterburn damage (25%) it lets you have a quick switch with all his weapons permanently. The Powerjack: very powerful weapon, it does +25 damage than the fireaxe and when someone kills someone with it, the wearer gains +75 hp, and it overheals the wearer if he has full health at the cost of [b]no random critical hits[/b] The set bonus: very unnoticeable, just sightly faster than the usual at the cost of taking more damage from the shots of the enemy. The Spy: "L'Etranger": by wearing it, every time you hit an enemy with a shot from it, you gain a little bit of cloak for some reason at the cost of doing less damage (-20%) The eternal reward: if you backstab someone with it you automatically disguise as the person, and the body of the person who you backstabbed with it disappears, at the cost of not being able to disguise and last but not least, the set bonus: "reduced decloak sound volume" and "0.5 sec longer Cloak blink time" which I still don't get what's it about, it makes very hard dealing with a dead ringer spy. Everything is balanced but scout, imo.

FaN: Right clicking uses knockback on enemy and self, but left is normal. So when you try to dive down you don't fly away from the first shot.

[QUOTE=mutated;26990789] Shortstop - Another tough one. Tighter shot spread? Even faster firing speed / reload? Remove the ammo pool shared with the Pistol? Definitely open to suggestions. [/QUOTE] This thing is overpowered enough.

The point I was making about the poly sets was that two identical loadouts can confer different advantages down to a hat. In 3 cases, the hat offers no downside to its use. At least for the pyro and spy sets equipping the hat presents a choice.

My opnions: Flare Gun : +10 base damage (40), mini-crits on long-range non-ignited enemies.(i always fell flaregun is too weak, isnt a matter of aim, a good aim pyro will do much more damage with shotgun) Degreaser : it is fine weapon, the problem isnt on degreaser, it is on pyro burn damage, its too weak makes the degreaser a upgrade Scout Milkman Bonus Set: its is retarded, needs a nerf, maybe increased vulnerability to something. Dalokohs Bar : dunno how to balance it, but its pretty underpowered Crit-a-cola : only mini crits on damage done, not taken Sidney Sleeper : faster charger shot Shortstop : Reload time slighty longer Homewrecker : -50% damage on players, +150% building damage, no knockback when equipped

Here's my take on it: The Scout: Sandman: Needs a revamp. Right now, it has no defined goal, what do I do with this? Toss a ball to kill this guy? It's debuff is too controversial. The stunball should do no slowdown, and whoever is stunned take 50% less damage. Granted, this made it useless, but now increase the duration by a bit, maybe 2-3 seconds. This effectively corrects it from a free kill to a useful tool. Scouts dominate in one on one combat, and this aids him, while still keeping the negative of lower max health. It encourages to take them out one by one, and not shoot the one that's stunned. The only way to kill someone stunned, is to chase them down, or get a teammate which = teamwork. Finally decrease the home-run total stun minimum range by a little so it's less of a gimmick achievement. Another thing is maybe remove a lost ball once another it's recharged to save fps. Tf2 needs that badly.