Reworking the Achievement System - Games

[I]"We have five hundred achievements to run though. For most men, far too many to do. We are not most men. We are Facepunchers. We have the brainpower. The will. To make these posts count! Let's begin."[/I] Achievements have been milestones of videogaming for quite some time now. Goals to strive for, secrets to find and what have you. Some games do achievements better than others, and let's face it, Team Fortress 2 does a pretty bad job at it. We now have over 500 achievements, and a lot of these are not good achievements. For example, "Slammy Slayvis Woundya". It requires you to be a demoman wielding a sword to kill a soldier who has the equalizer out with your sword. Now this was different back when there were two soldier melees: stock and equalizer. But now, not only is the equalizer one of the worst unlocks, there are about four or five other(superior) weapons to choose from, and the chance of running into an equalizer soldier as demoman is low, let alone being able to get into melee range and kill him. Or "Krazy Ivan", kill 50 people with your minigun while underwater. Very few maps in the game have water, so unless you plan to farm it, then good luck. Or what about First Blood, which requires you to be the first person to get a kill as scout and then kill somebody else with the critboost in [I]arena[/I], a gamemode that Valve stopped official support for years ago. I could go on and on about some of these(Process of Elimination, the Great Deflate, Banner of Brothers...) So, I propose that [I]we[/I] create a new achievement system from scratch, including what they are, what milestones they grant and the rewards obtained from them. With this thread I hope we can create a new set of achievements that work far better in the current TF2 and adequately reward players for their effort. [B]The problems:[/B] -Some achievements are extremely hard to get, due to the fact that they rely on outdated gamemodes, maps or loadout choices -Achievements lack any significant form of reward -Many achievements require players to go out of their way and do extrememly specific tasks which may or may not be counter-productive -Map specific achievements require the player to spend a substantial ammount of time on that map -Achievement farming is incredibly easy [B]The goals:[/B] -Make sure that most achievements can be obtained through the natural flow of gameplay with enough skill -Create a brand new set of achievements for each class -Remove or modify outdated achievements -Improve achievement prorgession and rewards -Clean up useless or excessive achievements [B]Please keep in mind...[/B] ...that this is not a post-your-achievements thread. Yes, you can suggest new achievements, but make sure they fit in with the rest of achivements and that we need to fix and remove old ones first. ...that there are over five hundred achievements and if we plan on rebuilding the system then we'll have to take it one set at a time. I'll begint he discussion with a couple of suggestions myself: 1) Divide the class-specific achievements into "General Class" and "Weapon Specific". Each weapon would have 2-3 achievements and the class would have between 5 and 10. Obtaining a certain ammount of class-specific achievements will unlock two weapons for that class. Obtaining the majority of achievements for that weapon will unlock another weapon(or two?) for the same class, which would allow a smooth transition through the achievements. Whether the weapon should be random or not, I don't know, and if not, then in what order?. 2) Remove map-specific achievements and replace them with gamemode specific achievements. This means that there is no reason to stay on one map just for the sake of getting its (excessively long) achievements, but rather, you can simply do it over a variety of maps which share the same gamemode.

I'm pretty sure you can get Slammy Sayvis Woundya by killing someone with the Escape Plan. and the Equalizer isn't garbage, it's still a straight upgrade to stock.

Reserving a post here for later use. When I said Later I didn't think I'd have it ready in a couple of hours. [B][I][U]The Achievements[/U][/I][/B] [B]Scout Achievements:[/B] -A Year to Remember -Closer -If You Build It -Batting the Doctor -Gun Down -I'm Bat Man -Pop Fly(Reworked) -Race for the Pennant -Doctoring the Ball [B]Scout Achievements(Open for Debate):[/B] -Batter Up -Side Retired -Stealing Home [B]CTF Specific Achievements[/B] -Round Tripper -Triple Steal -Bellited Beleaguer -No Hitter [B]CP Specific Achievements(5CP or A/D)[/B] -Triple Play -Block the Plate

[QUOTE=Jhonnykiller;45238189]I'm pretty sure you can get Slammy Sayvis Woundya by killing someone with the Escape Plan. and the Equalizer isn't garbage, it's still a straight upgrade to stock.[/QUOTE] You have to be near someone and be under low health to deal damage. Note the soldier being the slowest class in the game, most fast - normal speed classes can backpedal and take you down. And for the 'slow' classes, you can't catch them off guard since they deal lots of damage and have a large health pool.

-snip-

All the 'win *insert map here* *insert ridiculously large number here* times' achievements need to go. Also this one: [B]Mass Hysteria[/B] Have 6 teammates using Pyrovision at the same time. Why? It's like having a "Have a teammate kill somebody else while you watch" achievement.

Check for the [I]Open for Debate[/I] section at the bottom of this post for the achievements to discuss. 1-3 achievements per weapon are also needed. [QUOTE=165your4;45239247]All the 'win *insert map here* *insert ridiculously large number here* times' achievements need to go.[/QUOTE] Like I said, gamemode-specific achievements would be so much better. Anyway, somebody said he would go through the scout achieves but he snipped his post so i guess I'll do it. So I'll list all the achievements and their reasonings for my decision(Yes, No, Open for Debate, Rework or Moved). Yes and No are obvious, Open for Debate means that I'm leaving it uncertain and you guys can decide. Rework means yes but modified and Moved means it will be switched to Weapon or Gamemode specific. If you can convince me to change a yes or no, then I'll accept that too. And yes, sorry for ruining the baseball puns by making every single CTF achievement gamemode specific [B]First Blood - No[/B], arena specific achievement [B]Quick Hook - No[/B], map specific(Well) [B]A Year to Remember - Yes[/B](get 2004 total kills), class milestone achievements are good and show dedication to the class [B]The Cycle - No[/B](Kill an enemy on the ground, in the air and in the water), water=bad [B]Closer - Yes[/B](Destroy 3 teleporter entrances), rewards a scouts sneaking abilities [B]If you Build it - Open for debate[/B](Destroy 3 enemy buildings while under construction) [B]Gun Down - Yes[/B](Destroy a sentry with your pistol), possibly change to destroy a sentry with any weapon [B]Batter Up -Open for debate[/B](Do 1000 double jumps), not sure if pointless or not [B]Dodgers 1, Giants 0 - Probably No[/B](Kill a heavy and take his sandvich), relies on the heavy having the sandvich equipped and eating it in a place vulnerable to you [B]Batting the Doctor - Open for debate[/B](Kill a medic with full uber) [B]I'm Bat Man - Yes[/B](survive 500 damage), rewards a scouts survival abilities [B]Pop Fly - Rework[/B](Kill 20 players while double jumping), change it to any jump, not just double [B]Round-Tripper - Move to Gamemode Specific[/B](Capture the intel 25 times) [B]Triple Steal - Move to Gamemode Specific[/B](Capture the intel 3 times in a round) [B]Artful Dodger - Move to Weapon Specific[/B](Dodge 1000 damage with Bonk) [B]Fail Classic - Move to Weapon Specific[/B](Kill someone with the FaN's knockback) [B]Strike Zone - No[/B](Kill or assist 50 stunned players), stun only works well at range, scout only works well close up [B]Foul Terrirory - Move to Weapon Specific[/B](Get an enviromental kill via stun) [B]The Big Hurt - No[/B](Stun a Medic ready to Uber), too similar to Batting the Doctor and the Sandman already has too many achievements [B]Brushback - Move to Weapon Specific, Rework[/B](Stun 50 enemies while capturing a point or pushing the cart), change to 20-25 and while capturing any objective [B]Moon Shot - Move to Weapon Specific[/B](Get a max duration sadman stun) [B]Beanball - No[/B](Stun a scout with their own ball), Sandman already has a lot of achievements, relies on an enemy using the sandman [B]Retire the Runner - No[/B], relies on another scout using the CritACola [B]Caught Napping - No[/B](Kill 50 enemies from behind with the FaN), it's called Back Scatter [B]Side Retired - Open for debate[/B](Capture the last CP on a CP map) [B]Triple Play - Move to Gamemode Specific[/B](Capture 3 capture points in a row in one life) [B]Stealing Home - Open for debate[/B](Capture a point within a second of it becoming available) [B]Set the Table - No[/B](Initiate 10 point captures that succeed), doesn't require any skill or dedication and relies on the team [B]Block the Plate - Move to Gamemode Specific[/B](Block 50 captures) [B]Belitted Beleaguer - Move to Gamemode Specific[/B](Kill an enemy with the intel while you have theirs) [B]No-Hitter - Move to Gamemode Specific, Rework[/B](Take and capture the intel without shooting), change to take and capture the intel without dealing damage [B]Race for ther Pennant - Yes[/B](Run 25 km), milestones are good [B]Out of the Park - No or Move to Weapon Specific[/B](Get a taunt kill and send the opponent 25 meters), Sandman has too many achievements so give it to the atomizer [B]First Blood Part 2 - No Doctoring the Ball - Open for debate[/B](Kill 3 enemies while ubered) [B]Back In Business/Back 2 Back/Severed Ties - Change to Weapon Specific, Rework[/B] Scout Achievements: -A Year to Remember -Closer -If You Build It -Batting the Doctor -Gun Down -I'm Bat Man -Pop Fly(Reworked) -Race for the Pennant -Doctoring the Ball [B]Scout Achievements(Open for Debate):[/B] -Batter Up -Side Retired -Stealing Home Force-A-Nature Achievements -Fail Classic Bonk Achievements: -Artful Dodger Sandman Achievements: -Foul Territory -Brushback -Moonshot Atomizer Achievements: -Out of the Park Back Scatter Achievements: -Back In Business -Back 2 Back -Severed Ties CTF Specific Achievements -Round Tripper -Triple Steal -Bellited Beleaguer -No Hitter CP Specific Achievements(5CP or A/D) -Triple Play -Block the Plate [editline]Edited[/editline] Guys, you do realize that rating this disagree without saying anything isn't going to help anybody because I have no idea what part of the wordwall you disagree with and why.

Can we make this thread literal interpretations of achievement icons [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/18/Tf_play_game_everyclass.png?t=20120903062912[/t] Take and score an A+ on the team fortress 2 personality quiz [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/3/38/Tf_play_game_friendsonly.png?t=20120903063510[/t] grab the hand of a teammate during a lunar eclipse [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/1a/Tf_multiple_bff.png?t=20120903064401[/t] watch 2 professional boxers rumble in front of a target while screaming BFF! in their direction [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/7a/Tf_win_well_minimumtime.png?t=20120903063051[/t] make merasmus turn you into a clock

[QUOTE=Punchy;45239932]Can we make this thread literal interpretations of achievement icons[/QUOTE] no

[QUOTE=Kierany9;45239844] [B]First Blood - No[/B], arena specific achievement [highlight]I'd disagree if arena wasn't close to being abandoned. They should somehow repopulate it instead.[/highlight] [B]The Cycle - No[/B](Kill an enemy on the ground, in the air and in the water), water=bad [highlight]most of popular maps have water, and there's always 2fort.[/highlight] [B]If you Build it - Open for debate[/B](Destroy 3 enemy buildings while under construction) [highlight]Why would this even be up for debate?[/highlight] [B]Dodgers 1, Giants 0 - Probably No[/B](Kill a heavy and take his sandvich), relies on the heavy having the sandvich equipped and eating it in a place vulnerable to you [highlight]Eating it is not necessary, since it's dropped anyway. Besides, heavies with sandviches aren't going anywhere.[/highlight] [B]Batting the Doctor - Open for debate[/B](Kill a medic with full uber) [highlight]Why? It's perfectly fine[/highlight] [B]Pop Fly - Rework[/B](Kill 20 players while double jumping), change it to any jump, not just double [highlight]Why? Pointless change in my eyes[/highlight] [B]Strike Zone - No[/B](Kill or assist 50 stunned players), stun only works well at range, scout only works well close up[highlight]Not an argument against the achievement, especially with the cleaver existing.[/highlight] [B]Caught Napping - No[/B](Kill 50 enemies from behind with the FaN), it's called Back Scatter [highlight]Not an argument against the achievement considering FaN is a good ambush weapon.[/highlight] [B]Set the Table - No[/B](Initiate 10 point captures that succeed), doesn't require any skill or dedication and relies on the team [highlight]Why? This isn't really worse than the rest of the gamemode achievements, and doesn't actually rely on team.[/highlight] [B]No-Hitter - Move to Gamemode Specific, Rework[/B](Take and capture the intel without shooting), change to take and capture the intel without dealing damage [highlight]Why would this be a warranted change?[/highlight] [B]Out of the Park - No or Move to Weapon Specific[/B](Get a taunt kill and send the opponent 25 meters), Sandman has too many achievements so give it to the atomizer [highlight]Home Run taunt kill can be done with both weapons[/highlight] Doctoring the Ball - Open for debate[/B](Kill 3 enemies while ubered) [highlight]It's fine the way it is.[/highlight][/QUOTE] My comments highlighted.

It's a bad idea to change the achievements. I mean they're just a "bonus", and it feel nice to have a new achievement after 2k of hours playing TF2. (Like a random improbable achievement)

[QUOTE=Talishmar;45240187]My comments highlighted.[/QUOTE] Everything in bold I agree with, everything underlined I sort of agree with. [U]First Blood:[/U] Arena was abandoned for a reason, people didn't like it. If they make arena likeable then sure, keep it. The cycle: Define "Most of popular maps". I can only think of 2fort, that one tiny bit in Doublecross and Thunder Mountain Stage 2 with water in them off the top of my head. [B]If you Build It:[/B] Agreed after looking over it. I say Open to Debate because I personally don't mind if it's an achievement or not, but I wasn't sure on everybody elses opinion. [U]Dodgers 1, Giants 0:[/U] Does the Heavy always drop the sandvich on death or is it only when it is out? If the former, then I agree. [B]Batting the Doctor:[/B] Same as If you Build It. Pop Fly: Because killing someone during the second jump shouldn't be mandatory [U]Strike Zone:[/U] Cleaver Specific then? It just seems like an odd achievement. Caught Napping: There is no point in having it FaN exclusive then. Scout is a good ambushing class even without the FaN or Back Scatter. No Hitter: FaN jumps require shooting [U]Set the Table:[/U] I sort of agree but the achievement in itself seems kind of pointless. Changed to Open for Debate. [U]Out of the Park: [/U]Four Sandman exclusive achievements is a bit much but whatever [B]Doctoring the Ball:[/B] Same as If you Build it and Batting the Doctor.

so basically you want to water all the achievements down, right?

[QUOTE=Punchy;45239932]Can we make this thread literal interpretations of achievement icons [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/18/Tf_play_game_everyclass.png?t=20120903062912[/t] Take and score an A+ on the team fortress 2 personality quiz [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/3/38/Tf_play_game_friendsonly.png?t=20120903063510[/t] grab the hand of a teammate during a lunar eclipse [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/1a/Tf_multiple_bff.png?t=20120903064401[/t] watch 2 professional boxers rumble in front of a target while screaming BFF! in their direction [t]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/7a/Tf_win_well_minimumtime.png?t=20120903063051[/t] make merasmus turn you into a clock[/QUOTE] Did people actually take this post seriously It's a joke, guys

[QUOTE=Sparkwire;45240683]so basically you want to water all the achievements down, right?[/QUOTE] Yes I do...sort of. We have over 500 of them and a lot of them aren't even things you'd consider "achievements". And then there are the ones that are just massive chores that require an absurd ammount of time on one map. As a new player, achievements were the only way to get new weapons for the class you played the most without hoping for a lucky drop or getting premium and trading for/buying them, which is why achievements were added in the first place. If you didn't read the full OP... [B]-Make sure that [U]most[/U] achievements can be obtained through the natural flow of gameplay with enough skill[/B] -Create a [U]brand new set of achievements[/U] for each class -Remove or modify outdated achievements [B]-Improve achievement prorgession and rewards[/B] -Clean up useless or excessive achievements

My only issue with the newer achievements is that there's no form of reward for doing them, I only really achievement grinded for the milestones back in the day, but all these newer achievements I've not really cared for, besides the replay achievement taunt and the hat from the foundry update.

The achievements that require you to do something like "BUFF 5 FRIENDS WITH THE BUFF BANNER" are just silly. Getting 5 friends in one server, let alone on the same team would be a pain.

[QUOTE=Suttles;45242069]The achievements that require you to do something like "BUFF 5 FRIENDS WITH THE BUFF BANNER" are just silly. Getting 5 friends in one server, let alone on the same team would be a pain.[/QUOTE] I guess I'm lucky to have 8 friends who play then

[QUOTE=Suttles;45242069]The achievements that require you to do something like "BUFF 5 FRIENDS WITH THE BUFF BANNER" are just silly. Getting 5 friends in one server, let alone on the same team would be a pain.[/QUOTE] Or that one achievement that forces you to play with seven friends in the same server. That's as dumb as an achievement for Hydro... [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Tf_win_hydro_noenemycaps.png?t=20120903063339[/IMG] [B]Relentless Offense[/B] [I]Win Hydro without giving up a capture[/I] :suicide:

[QUOTE=Kierany9;45244879][IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Tf_win_hydro_noenemycaps.png?t=20120903063339[/IMG] [B]Unachievable[/B] [I]It is impossible to get this achievement.[/I] [/QUOTE]

i believe they're called avhievements for a reason. some are easy and come off naturally, some are harder and are rather cool to achieve and some are simply put there to encourage gameplay aspects of each class. in any case, you should not mind them.

[QUOTE=Kierany9;45244879]Or that one achievement that forces you to play with seven friends in the same server. That's as dumb as an achievement for Hydro... [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Tf_win_hydro_noenemycaps.png?t=20120903063339[/IMG] [B]Relentless Offense[/B] [I]Win Hydro without giving up a capture[/I] :suicide:[/QUOTE] you just create a tc_hydro listen server

[QUOTE=Torterra;45244997]you just create a tc_hydro listen server[/QUOTE] But that's more enduring the achievement instead of earning it.

[QUOTE=Kierany9;45244879]Or that one achievement that forces you to play with seven friends in the same server. That's as dumb as an achievement for Hydro... [IMG]http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Tf_win_hydro_noenemycaps.png?t=20120903063339[/IMG] [B]Relentless Offense[/B] [I]Win Hydro without giving up a capture[/I] :suicide:[/QUOTE] I actually used to play on 24/7 hour hydro and I have this.

[QUOTE=Kierany9;45244879]Or that one achievement that forces you to play with seven friends in the same server. That's as dumb as an achievement for Hydro... [/QUOTE] Yeah. Who tha hell would need to have friends to play a Team work based game with/against ? [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fZfSJU8.jpg?1?6374[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ScarfaceCrow;45247647]Yeah. Who tha hell would need to have friends to play a Team work based game with/against ? [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/fZfSJU8.jpg?1?6374[/IMG][/QUOTE] yeah because i knowevery single person on my friendslist is actually real friends with me and willing to cooperate with 6 other people they don't know at the drop of a hat i have 3 goto friends for anything i need and a bunch of chatfriends/facepunch friends i could probably call to help now and then, but that doesnt change the majority of players not having lots of steam friends to crowd around with.

[QUOTE=Punchy;45247948]yeah because i knowevery single person on my friendslist is actually real friends with me and willing to cooperate with 6 other people they don't know at the drop of a hat i have 3 goto friends for anything i need and a bunch of chatfriends/facepunch friends i could probably call to help now and then, but that doesnt change the majority of players not having lots of steam friends to crowd around with.[/QUOTE] The achievement of having friends to play is not required to earn anything, just to show that you have a social life in game. You can go to for example, a trade server and ask people politely to help you with this, even if you don't plan to have any friend and an achievment with any meaning is so important to you. You can actually be nice to people, and instead of rate people dumb, go out to know people, only your mouth and mic or fingers and a keyboard required. You can even seduce your "buddies" to do something really dumb, and make a team of Huntsmen Snipers with a Pyro to light arrows and a Medic to keep everyone alive and having fun. (the Spy is just a random guy). [QUOTE][IMG]http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/576761144178906480/B03816FA43B05718BF36B55005C256087056EB2B/1024x576.resizedimage[/IMG][/QUOTE] People should be making hats for having friends, not fake friends for having hats, but this is my utopian point of view and totally unrelated to the topic.

[QUOTE=ScarfaceCrow;45248088]The achievement of having friends to play is not required to earn anything, just to show that you have a social life in game. You can go to for example, a trade server and ask people politely to help you with this, even if you don't plan to have any friend and an achievment with any meaning is so important to you. You can actually be nice to people, and instead of rate people dumb, go out to know people, only your mouth and mic or fingers and a keyboard required. You can even seduce your "buddies" to do something really dumb, and make a team of Huntsmen Snipers with a Pyro to light arrows and a Medic to keep everyone alive and having fun. (the Spy is just a random guy). People should be making hats for having friends, not fake friends for having hats, but this is my utopian point of view and totally unrelated to the topic.[/QUOTE] I see your point but you've dodged the point that i'm speaking on behalf of people collecting achievements and can't just call upon friends, i know because i have friends from when i was in school on steam ask me for help, and since they were just getting into steam i was the only friend he had that played tf2 too. As you say he could go find some players to add him and help him out but that's a matter of easier said than done.