Yes this an MMO topic. I also think it can be directed towards most games/RPG's in general.
This was made on SWTOR Forums and This guy is just overall smart. Wondered what your thoughts would be. (Your being FP)
[QUOTE=DarkJediShrike;3164360]Just because WoW polished what was essentially EQ's philosophy of game design doesn't mean that every game created from now until the world ends should ape that concept.
Look, I think Blizzard did a decent job of copying EQ's best features and employing their own, but it's hardly the be-all, end-all many people on these forums make it out to be.
One of the primary problems with WoW is that your actions affect [I]nothing,[/I] nor dies Blizzard even [I]attempt[/I] to give the false impression that they do. When you log into WoW, it's like visiting a theme park. You can stroll around, ride the rides, and even beat Mickey until loot falls out of his butt. But the next day, nothing you did the previous day changed anything. The rides are all the same, the scenery is unchanged, and there's a new guy in the mouse costume.
Many people have compared WoW to a hampster wheel, or a treadmill, or any similar repetitive invention, because that is [I]exactly[/I] what it is. You log in, you do your dailies, run whatever instances you're going to run, maybe hit a raid, and log out. And, barring the occasional strange happening (which are almost exclusively player-created; kiting a raid boss to a major city, attacking an enemy town, etc), you can count on every day being a virtual mirror image of the last. There are no GM-created events aside from the ridiculous, pre-programmed holidays. There are no surprises. Everyone just happily trots along while the marionette strings on their arms and legs keep things moving.
Honestly, I'm burned out on this style of gameplay. However, there just aren't that many options for people who are frustrated with the grind. For example, there's EVE Online, which is almost contrary in every way to what Blizzard has designed, but is hardly appealing to a large-scale population due to the severity of its penalties and its obnoxious training regimine. Having said that, just because EVE Online only appeals to a very, [I]very[/I] minor subset of the population doesn't mean that the overall, governing concept of the sandbox MMO isn't [I]infinitely superior in every way[/I] to what WoW does, because it almost certainly is. [U]Blizzard dictates player experiences... [/U]sandboxes encourage players to create their [U]own experiences,[/U] and there's no refuting that. There's also no chance in hell that sandboxes [I]aren't[/I] the future of MMOs, because they are 100%, definitely, set-in-stone where the genre is headed. WoW was remarkable because of how safe Blizzard played their hand... but that's not going to work forever. It was a backwards-looking product that essentially amounted to a polished, expanded, bug-free Everquest redux.
Why was WoW so successful? Well, one thing I have always felt was that its timing was simply impeccable. Blizzard released the game right as people were leaving EQ en masse. At the same time, an entire generation of younger gamers who had grown up on consoles in the 90s were ready to try something a little more adult on their PCs. Once the ball got rolling down hill, nothing could stop it. The game was solid and strong, and the more momentum it built, the more the masses flocked to it. Now, even though the population has arguably begun to slowly contract, people are so convinced that it's the [I]only[/I] way to create the games that they're unwilling to acknowledge that WoW's success had as much to do with excellent development timing than it did with the game itself.
And that's not to say that people don't enjoy other things, or can't in the future. Why do you think people loved the first 6 months of SWG so much when it was [I]so different[/I] from what WoW offers now? If anything, SWG felt a lot more like Ultima Online than it did EQ, and people were fine with that. Some of my fondest memories in MMOs came in that brief period before SOE ruined everything -- the Bestine/Anchorhead battles... the way the Devs would spawn AT-ATs and dropships to support player-run events... it was all very fluid and freeform, and it felt way, [I]way[/I] more "real" than WoW ever has to me. SWG only fell from grace because SOE decided, upon seeing WoW's ballooning numbers, that the only way they could match it was to make their product more like the competition's... and it doomed SWG.
Will SW:TOR buck the design trend that WoW perpetuates? Almost certainly not... and every day that passes on these forums, where fanboys clap for every step that Bioware takes towards emulating Warcraft, is just more proof of that. But mark my words: the best way to beat Blizzard isn't to copy their game... because a WoW clone is hardly any better than WoW itself.
The straight shot to slaying the dragon lies in releasing a polished, wholly unique experience... and it seems unlikely that SW:TOR will be that at release. We should be mourning this fact, not applauding it.
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What are my proposals for alternatives? The list is as follows:[/U] (and yes, I am aware that this makes the OP exceedingly long, but I felt like I had been challenged about my own ideas so much later in the thread that it would be beneficial to present these changes at the outset).
[B]1) Dynamic player housing of the like not seen since SWG. [/B]
Even if said housing had to be cloistered away in instances, I would want those instances massive, and have them give players the ability to create towns within them based on the lay of the land. So far, our "housing" in TOR is single-instance player ships that nobody will ever see but us. That's pointless.
[B]2) Removal or revision of the trinity system. [/B]
Never in the history of Star Wars have we seen a Jedi "hang back" and heal. I don't care if the Jedi Consular in that video was just serving as a camera man... the fact remains that there was a clear tank in that group, and a clear healer, and if the healer suddenly decided to stop healing, or the tank decided to stop tanking, the group would wipe. Ergo, without those elements present, there could be no group. That is the trinity, and I would see it removed and replaced with something far more dynamic and innovative... and, to be honest, maybe something a little more realistic, too.
[B]3) Implementation of non-gear-based progression and accomplishment.[/B]
The problem with WoW is that your entire gaming experience can be summed up by what your character is wearing on his or her back. You don't own any part of the game world, you don't hail from any particular town or region... you are just a nameless, faceless grain in an entire sack of sand. I would come up with a system that doesn't pigeon hole a character into raiding or PvP to get gear, but -- beyond that -- I would remove gear as the single, driving factor in the game. That isn't to say that better gear wouldn't be immensly helpful, but it would also not be the singular determinant of progression as it exists in WoW and games like it.
[B]4) Ever-changing world environments, put into flux via character actions. [/B]
Let's say that Tatooine is in Sith hands when the game starts. A number of Republic players begin to quest and fight there, and they enjoy a degree of success that allows them to open up new quests and areas through group achievements (think Quel'Danas in WoW, but instead of being one island, it's a whole planet, and instead of only effecting one raid instance, it has repercussions that realign the entire globe). After a certain set time, a battle or some other major engagement is queued with sufficient warning being given to both sides. The outcome of the battle determines ownership of the planet, and whichever side wins gains certain bonuses (items, experience, credits, bragging rights, what have you), while the other side loses influence on the planet. After two weeks, the planet would become vulnerable to conquest again, and the other side could take another crack at it.
Victory over the whole galaxy could be determined by one faction's ownership of a grouping of strategic planets. Once that was completed, the winning faction would be awarded with a major bonus, and the system would reset after, say, a week. Repeated losses of the "game" by one faction or the other would result in certain buffs being awarded to that faction (experience bonuses, slight credit bonuses, etc.) to encourage an equalization of the two sides through the leveling of alts, etc.
[B]5) Iconic Star Wars space battles that go beyond the "planet ferry" system that's already planned. [/B]
Imagine that you run a guild with a large group of friends. Not only are you all excellent fighter pilots, but your collective success has earned you an abundant over supply of wealth. Seeking greater fortune, you pool your credits and purchase a capital ship. A small fraction of you train skills to take command of this ship... some learning egineering and repair... some learning turbolaser gunnery, etc... and some learning capital ship piloting. In combat, maybe 10 people or so in the guild are assigned to the capital ship itself, while the remainder scramble their fighters from the hangar bay. The claxons sound, and they rush from their bunks down to the flight deck, where they board their sleek space vehicles, fire up the engines, and plunge into the depths of the void to do battle with the opposition. If enough fighters are knocked out, one side could land on the opposing ship and sieze it via boarding.
Capital ships could be heavily damaged, but not completely destroyed (thus, they could be knocked out of combat along with their attendant fighters, but the threat of their loss would not hover like a storm over the heads of their owners, resulting in them never being used). However, repairs would be both expensive, and take weeks, so there would be a risk of deploying them in combat. The loss of too many of these ships would cripple a faction, and allow the opposing side to gain an -- albeit temporary -- decisive upper hand, making the decision on whether to deploy them or not require coordination across multiple guilds.
Perhaps in linking these space battles to the situation on the planets, we could see another dynamic added to point 4), where control of a planet's space would prevent the capture of the surface, or allow the planet's defenders or attackers to call in pinpoint bombardments that would cripple key enemy installations, and make conquest all the more difficult/easy.
The point in all this is, you don't need to make a WoW to make a fun game. The game I've just described is really just one option of an infinite number of possibilities... but I imagine it would be fun, particularly since the end game would revolve, not around an endless repitition of instance grinding, but the battle for the galaxy itself.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a movie nerd complaining that a game isn't like the movies.
tl;dr, sorry.
but really the only problem i have with most mmo's is the monthly fee
He makes good points though.
The biggest problem for me is they make one gameplay element (fighting) and then copy paste the levels. Crafting is not a gameplay element either, it is a menu. There is only one thing to do and they don't even try to hide it. Actually this goes for basically all new games.
[QUOTE=MagicBurrito;23486250]tl;dr, sorry.
but really the only problem i have with most mmo's is the monthly fee[/QUOTE]
This and the grinding.
OH GOD THE GRINDING
I think what he said about EVE was right, but I think the sheer harshness of the game is what makes it fun. Killing people is much funner when you know its really doing something and their not just gonna respawn.
Well versed.
So he wants every MMO to be swg? No thanks I'll have eve thank you.
It sounds like he's trying to take out the whole idea of the MMORPG
I really like the trinity system, it makes teamwork essential. He's also complaining about how it's not realistic, and I say "fuck you" to that.
I'm sick of realism, and MMO's are were you can get away from that.
I think what this guy is proposing would be really genre-shaking and revolutionary... In fact it might be a little too big of a project for developers to handle now. It'd take years to make a game of the quality he's talking about.
Honestly I'd be more inclined to play MMOs if they could make the combat more fun and if there was some way to make progress without grinding for weeks just for a minor stat increase. My main gripe is that they all turn into routine. They're only fun until you hit about level 20. That's when they all really start to drag.
I want a flying car that runs on air and emits funky fresh beats as waste, but I ain't get that any time soon, either.
Tibia does housing right: There are a very limited amounts of houses per server, and you bid on them when the old owner stops paying the rent. They are part of the game world, not instanced.
Owning one means you own an actual part of the game world. It was pretty cool, going out to hunt monsters to pay your rent on time. :v:
Too bad Cipsoft completely ruined the game since 2006. There is always OpenTibia, which is open source and has support for the old versions, but the majority of the community is retarded.
I feel like he makes some good points. To me, one of the main draws of the MMO as a genre is to be part of a living, breathing world, with hundreds of other "citizens". But instead of embracing this idea, most developers fight it, instead dropping players in a concrete space where the only really fluid element to the gameplay is the players' characters slowly leveling.
[QUOTE=sirbinks;23487239]I feel like he makes some good points. To me, one of the main draws of the MMO as a genre is to be part of a living, breathing world, with hundreds of other "citizens". But instead of embracing this idea, most developers fight it, instead dropping players in a concrete space where the only really fluid element to the gameplay is the players' characters slowly leveling.[/QUOTE]
That is why I love eve, only npc's are the ones you fight in pve and the ones that give you missions :v:
[QUOTE=Xera;23487096]Tibia does housing right: There are a very limited amounts of houses per server, and you bid on them when the old owner stops paying the rent. They are part of the game world, not instanced.
Owning one means you own an actual part of the game world. It was pretty cool, going out to hunt monsters to pay your rent on time. :v:
Too bad Cipsoft completely ruined the game since 2006. There is always OpenTibia, which is open source and has support for the old versions, but the majority of the community is retarded.[/QUOTE]
Working extra hours just to make sure you're not kicked out of your house? I've heard people call MMOs a "second job", but that's ridiculous.
[editline]05:02AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=sirbinks;23487239]I feel like he makes some good points. To me, one of the main draws of the MMO as a genre is to be part of a living, breathing world, with hundreds of other "citizens". But instead of embracing this idea, most developers fight it, instead dropping players in a concrete space where the only really fluid element to the gameplay is the players' characters slowly leveling.[/QUOTE]
He has nice ideas and all, but if your solution to world hunger is a replicator that turns trash into food, you'd better have the schematics and a working prototype.
I definitely see where he's coming from - SWG in the pre-cu era was amazing (hence why there are several emulation projects still trying to resurrect it today). Although he seems to have lost faith in SWTOR, I still think it will turn out to be great. Bioware has a very good track record--they will make the right decisions in the end, even if the game isn't impressive starting out.
Cataclysm in WoW is going to try the whole: you're not doing jack shit in the world thing
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpdLsNQJnvc&playnext_from=TL&videos=Lu9XwBrftOo[/media]
Phasing and all
And i think if you're in a guild you can buy like a base or something at a certain point
All I want is MMOs to have more classes and to have those classes get exp by DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. Like Artisans and Medics in SWG.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;23487529]Working extra hours just to make sure you're not kicked out of your house? I've heard people call MMOs a "second job", but that's ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Uh, doing quests and hunting shit are basically the core parts of the game.
The rent was like 400GP when I played, which you could get in about 30m-1h of play time when nobody else was hunting. And it was monthly, so you could play 5 minutes a day and make it.
[QUOTE=Xera;23487855]Uh, doing quests and hunting shit are basically the core parts of the game.
The rent was like 400GP when I played, which you could get in about 30m-1h of play time when nobody else was hunting. And it was monthly, so you could play 5 minutes a day and make it.[/QUOTE]
I'd still rather have instanced housing than limited housing.
My perfect mmo would be one based more on skill as opposed to the amount of time you have played. I want to be able to start the game and at level 1 kill someone who is a level 20 simply because they suck and I'm good.
[QUOTE=sgman91;23488396]My perfect mmo would be one based more on skill as opposed to the amount of time you have played. I want to be able to start the game and at level 1 kill someone who is a level 20 simply because they suck and I'm good.[/QUOTE]You mean like MW2? :v:
more like planetside
[quote]One of the primary problems with WoW is that your actions affect [I]nothing,[/I] nor dies Blizzard even [I]attempt[/I] to give the false impression that they do. When you log into WoW, it's like visiting a theme park. You can stroll around, ride the rides, and even beat Mickey until loot falls out of his butt. But the next day, nothing you did the previous day changed anything. The rides are all the same, the scenery is unchanged, and there's a new guy in the mouse costume.
Many people have compared WoW to a hampster wheel, or a treadmill, or any similar repetitive invention, because that is [I]exactly[/I] what it is. You log in, you do your dailies, run whatever instances you're going to run, maybe hit a raid, and log out. And, barring the occasional strange happening (which are almost exclusively player-created; kiting a raid boss to a major city, attacking an enemy town, etc), you can count on every day being a virtual mirror image of the last. There are no GM-created events aside from the ridiculous, pre-programmed holidays. There are no surprises. Everyone just happily trots along while the marionette strings on their arms and legs keep things moving.[/quote]Every MMO out there is like this. You do some grinding for gear and skills, then you do a raid, a boss party, or guild vs guild or other thing that the game has and that is it.
This is the main problem with MMOs. They are being repetetive. I played ragnarok online for a good 4 years on a local private server. We did not get the updates as fast, but the community was smaller and better, not to talk that we had event gm's.
the point is, what sgman said. The more time you spend and doing actions should give a little more "weight" than how much XP and gear you grinded together.
This is the main problem, the grind. Of course there are quests, but most of them are the same. go fetch 20 somethings for me. We need epic things, give it some detail. because what it all boils down, is to kill monsters, in every RPG not just MMO's. This is what the developers should realize.
tl;dr what the Op's post say. less grinding, more intresting quests, time you spent playing the game should make you better, not the gear and levels you grinded.
We are basically missing the sandbox-elements in MMOs. That's why I'm so hopeful towards the upcoming game called Xsyon [url]http://www.xsyon.com/[/url]
Its developers are one of some that have caught up with the recent demands of players for more creative gameplay.
[QUOTE=ZuXer;23488617]Every MMO out there is like this. You do some grinding for gear and skills, then you do a raid, a boss party, or guild vs guild or other thing that the game has and that is it.
This is the main problem with MMOs. They are being repetetive. I played ragnarok online for a good 4 years on a local private server. We did not get the updates as fast, but the community was smaller and better, not to talk that we had event gm's.
the point is, what sgman said. The more time you spend and doing actions should give a little more "weight" than how much XP and gear you grinded together.
This is the main problem, the grind. Of course there are quests, but most of them are the same. go fetch 20 somethings for me. We need epic things, give it some detail. because what it all boils down, is to kill monsters, in every RPG not just MMO's. This is what the developers should realize.
tl;dr what the Op's post say. less grinding, more intresting quests, time you spent playing the game should make you better, not the gear and levels you grinded.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with you. Completely.
*Edit: And the MMO I think the OP is mostly describing is this one. It has many of the great concepts he's making and most likely the MMO I will be going to.
Wont give the details out, you can read ;)
[url]http://www.mortalonline.com/age_verification?destination=node%2F92[/url]
[QUOTE=sgman91;23488396]My perfect mmo would be one based more on skill as opposed to the amount of time you have played. I want to be able to start the game and at level 1 kill someone who is a level 20 simply because they suck and I'm good.[/QUOTE]
Sherwood Dungeon does that. Leveling up only increases your skill against NPCs but pvp is completely even. Too bad most everything else about that game sucks.
i agree with many of this guy's points and there are various MMO's that have done his various points with varying degrees of sucess. from my own personal experiance it goes something like this
Warhammer online for instance has a progression system in that the more you quest/kill mobs/win pvp there the more control your faction has over that particular level range, this in my opinion was a good way of making the players feel like they contributed to the bigger picture.
player housing, while this sounds like a nice idea from my expriance guild wars has done it best with its guild halls, within it has the ability to purcahse skills and take sidekicks out with you, these also featured when the guild did guild battles, making them actually useful compared to every other time i usualy saw them gathering dust
if an MMO could combine what the more popular elements like WoW's expansive open world, warhammers making-the-little guy-important, and have some form of housing it would be a dream come true for me
[QUOTE=A Glitch;23505001]i agree with many of this guy's points and there are various MMO's that have done his various points with varying degrees of sucess. from my own personal experiance it goes something like this
Warhammer online for instance has a progression system in that the more you quest/kill mobs/win pvp there the more control your faction has over that particular level range, this in my opinion was a good way of making the players feel like they contributed to the bigger picture.
player housing, while this sounds like a nice idea from my expriance guild wars has done it best with its guild halls, within it has the ability to purcahse skills and take sidekicks out with you, these also featured when the guild did guild battles, making them actually useful compared to every other time i usualy saw them gathering dust
if an MMO could combine what the more popular elements like WoW's expansive open world, warhammers making-the-little guy-important, and have some form of housing it would be a dream come true for me[/QUOTE]
Well said.
Wow is old and part of it isn't that they didn't have the technology or resources to make the game dynamic and player run. Too late for that now. Like look at eve, ccp has the most advanced servers possible and they still have lag.
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