[url]http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-17-lionhead-pre-owned-worse-than-pc-piracy[/url]
[quote]Fable III developer Lionhead has told Eurogamer that second-hand (pre-owned) sales on Xbox 360 are today a bigger problem than piracy on PC.
Fortunately, Lionhead has already managed to cover development costs with first-hand Xbox 360 sales, which are "in their millions".
Nevertheless, piracy will still affect Fable III on PC, and there's "not much you can do about it".
"Piracy these days on PC is probably less problematic than second-hand sales on the Xbox," declared lead Fable III combat designer Mike West. "I've been working on PC games for many years and piracy is always a problem. There are a lot of honest people out there as well, and if they like your game they'll buy it.
"The pirates, whatever you do on whatever system, they will crack it. It might take no time... I think the longest it's taken to happen is two days. Someone will crack it somewhere and there's not much you can do about it.
"It's just a depressing situation we're in that people don't think it's worth spending money on computer games," said West. "What they're doing is making sure there are fewer games coming out in the future and more people out of work, which is a terrible thing.
"Unless you sit down and meet a pirate face to face and have a conversation about what it does, I don't think anything will stop them."
West said that any sales Lionhead make of Fable III on PC this Friday and beyond will be "a bonus".
"For us it's probably a no-lose even with piracy as it is," shrugged West. "But, as I say, second-hand sales cost us more in the long-run than piracy these days."
Most of today's key video game outlets - Game, HMV, Amazon - and even some supermarkets (Tesco) buy and then resell used games from customers. Game publishers have developed a number of initiatives to counter-attack this, the most popular being EA's Online Pass, which bundles a free code with new games that can be redeemed to enable multiplayer or receive downloadable content. Whoever buys the game second hand won't get a free code, which means they'll have to buy a replica online for around $10.
Why do game publishers and developers not like second-hand game sales? Because they don't get any money for the transaction - the shop reaps all the rewards.
On PC, Fable III gains higher resolutions, a harder difficulty level, 3D support and a mode-based control system. The latter alters the mouse and keyboard inputs depending on whether you're using ranged attacks, magic or melee. Heroes can even strafe while aiming their gun, rifle or crossbow. West offers a much fuller description of the Fable III PC additions, as well as a postmortem of Fable III on Xbox 360, in his Fable III PC interview with Eurogamer published this morning.
Fable III scored 8/10 on Eurogamer on Xbox 360. "Many more RPGs will follow between now and whatever Lionhead does next with the series, but few if any will possess half as much heart, and most importantly, whatever else they have to offer, none will have Albion," concluded Eurogamer reviewer Tom Bramwell.[/quote]
Before anyone brings up "BUT USED SALES WORK IN OTHER INDUSTRIES LIKE CARS":
a) Games do not deteriorate. There's no inherent reason to buy a new game over a used one, whereas a new car will run better for longer than a used car. The only way this rings true for games is if you are super terrible at not taking care of them.
b) Other industries do not have their sales cannibalized like the video game industry does. If you've ever gone into a GameStop and try to buy a game new, it's very very common for them to ask you if you'd like to save 5-10$ buying a pre-owned copy, a lot of people do not know that by saying yes to this question they just gave the makers of the game 0$. On the other hand, this doesn't really happen in the music/movie/car industries. In fact, none of those industries make second hand sales a BUSINESS. Sure, there are places where you can rent movies and cars, but they are not overly successful (because of A and other reasons). GameStop almost made a majority of its money last year from used game sales, taking in 4.366 billion dollars from used game sales alone in 2010. No other industry compares to this.
c) Costs are rising substantially, yet the price of the video game remains the same. In other industries, the price of the product increases to match this. Games have been 50-60 (although 60 only becoming more common recently, it was around before then)$ for years and years now, while the cost to make an average video game has increased by tens of millions of dollars. In fact, game prices have only gone down over time while the cost has increased, because the industry made a media switch from expensive cartridges to CDs, way back when a new game could cost well over 80$ even though they were far cheaper to make in comparison. Even though the cost to make a game is rising, more and more people are buying used, so companies are losing more and more money. [b]Most games barely break even in profit.[/b]
d) Keep in mind the video game industry is also very infantile, very very new, and is experiencing crazy growth in prices considering that. Keep in mind it already crashed once, and it happening again is not a possibility that should be ignored.
Finally, keep in mind that nobody is trying to take the second hand market away, developers are just trying to find ways to make it less of an issue and trying different methods like Project Ten Dollar. If you like a game, please [b]buy it new[/b], or buy the guest pass if you get it used and get some DLC, whatever.
Going to end this with a developer post:
[quote]first-purchase incentive DLC (EA's Project Tendollar, Beta bundles, 'Online Passes' etc) is an attempt to make the used game market follow much of the rest of the used market. Games, as software, do not suffer from wear and tear the same way books, cars, etc do. first-purchase incentive DLC is a way to reward people who buy games new (ie the only people who pay developers) and help recoup second hand sales. Collectors Editions are basically prototypical first-purchase DLC.
Ultimately we're at a place where the market is changing, and games as we know them are going through growing pains. The costs are ludicrous to make a CoD/Halo/Gears/inFamous/Saints Row/etc and until new revenue channels are discovered and proved out there are going to be tensions.
Remember Horse Armor? Yet now, Bethesda's DLC is critically acclaimed and well-loved and tons of people look forward to each release. The games industry is going to put forward a lot more horse armors before new models come into maturation.
Hopefully new consoles will help change that, too - the 360 introduced a whole new method of selling and marketing games with XBLA and then later Games on Demand (PS3 does this too but 360 was first to market, this isn't a console wars statement). With Project Cafe hopefully we'll see a new game delivery system emerge that can be further refined with the next Xbox/Playstation as well.
All I can say as a developer is, please buy games, DLC, and whatever else that you like, through the channels you like, and that you want to see more of - vote with your dollars and the market will evolve in your favor more quickly. If you buy BoringGame new because they spent $100m on marketing it, and meanwhile you only rent AwesomeGame from Netflix, you're going to see more BoringGames. [/quote]
I almost never buy used games. Only if the deal is really good, or if it's an impulse buy. And when I buy new games, I don't spend more than 40€.
I think Lionhead is right on this one.
I have actually never though about it this way before. Thanks for the heads up. Will remember this if I'm going to buy a game at gamestop any time soon
The key thing here is that the best ways to curb used game sales (kinda hinted in my post) is make games that take longer to complete (whether that be deeper replayable SP or deeper longer MP), have additional content provided to them regularly, etc. Basically "games as a service" as Valve has been touting with Team Fortress 2, by updating the game regularly with new (both free + pay) stuff or making the game more replayable, you inherently reduce the amount of people who will return the game, thus reducing used game sales, really the same way to curb piracy. This is pretty much a win-win for gamers in general when it takes off, since essentially the best way to beat piracy and second hale sales is to make a better first hand product.
e:
And to switch to digital distribution obviously but we're getting there, at least on PC.
sorry but if I find a used game that I want that is in almost the same condition as a new one and doesn't have the online pass and that sort of stuff on it and is like $10-20 cheaper I'm getting the used one.
I don't understand it, they already have a solution to this and it's account/console bound cd keys.
[QUOTE=nige111;29912530]I don't understand it, they already have a solution to this and it's account/console bound cd keys.[/QUOTE]
That's for PC. This guy is talking about the console pre-owned market.
[QUOTE=nige111;29912530]I don't understand it, they already have a solution to this and it's account/console bound cd keys.[/QUOTE]
Yeah this works really well on PC, the problem with it on consoles is that there's actually a surprising margin of consoles that will never or almost never go online, which would make authenticating the CD-Key difficult and this method would really only work for multiplayer, basically like old PC games like Diablo. You could play Diablo off of a friends CD-Key ez, you just couldn't multiplayer with him for duplicate CD-Key. On PC it's a lot easier/better, especially with Steam now, because gaming PCs are almost always hooked up to the Internet and so authenticating and using a CD-Key so no one else can is really easy for the PC market now.
I hardly ever bought games new until I started using steam, And even then it's only during sales where the price is less then $30.
[QUOTE=Zackin5;29912751]I hardly ever bought games new until I started using steam, And even then it's only during sales where the price is less then $30.[/QUOTE]
Yep, this is the great thing about digital distribution though, it doesn't cost the developers much of anything and sales are much much easier to have as you can see from Steam, and when they happen the developers see 70% of the profit (Steam takes ~30% cut, which is still better than the essentially ~50% cut that the retail process takes). I do the same thing mostly, barring a few titles, and it's great. You can get a ridiculous amount of games for so cheap on Steam if you can just be smart and a bit patient, I picked up like 15 games last Christmas for only 60$.
[QUOTE=Ranik;29912417]The key thing here is that the best ways to curb used game sales (kinda hinted in my post) is make games that take longer to complete (whether that be deeper replayable SP or deeper longer MP), have additional content provided to them regularly, etc. Basically "games as a service" as Valve has been touting with Team Fortress 2, by updating the game regularly with new (both free + pay) stuff or making the game more replayable, you inherently reduce the amount of people who will return the game, thus reducing used game sales, really the same way to curb piracy. This is pretty much a win-win for gamers in general when it takes off, since essentially the best way to beat piracy and second hale sales is to make a better first hand product.
e:
And to switch to digital distribution obviously but we're getting there, at least on PC.[/QUOTE]
tf2 is a game that even when i get bored with it i would never sell or get rid of it, because i know that in a few months if i come back it will be radically different
DLC is probably going to be the best way to make up for used game sales. Having a lot of good, reasonably priced DLC is the way to go, in my opinion.
Gears of War 2 did a great job, lots of map packs, with the option to buy them all at once for a cheaper price.
I always buy my games new. I prefer to be the only owner of the copy I just bought. No idea why but I suppose it feels better. In case there are some problems with the game and whatnot. (Not that there is any..)
I was going to buy a game used once from GAME but the guy was trying to sell me a copy of the game that had a massive hole in the case. Sure, the case doesn't matter. But I don't even want to begin to think how the previous owner molested the game. :ohdear:
[QUOTE=CommanderPT;29912934]I always buy my games new. I prefer to be the only owner of the copy I just bought. No idea why but I suppose it feels better. In case there are some problems with the game and whatnot. (Not that there is any..)
I was going to buy a game used once from GAME but the guy was trying to sell me a copy of the game that had a massive hole in the case. Sure, the case doesn't matter. But I don't even want to begin to think how the previous owner molested the game. :ohdear:[/QUOTE]
my biggest deal with buying used games is that same paranoia
i know they test the games first but i always feel like i could be paying 50 bucks for a disc that is scratched and abused
Lionhead Studios are awesome, it sucks that Microsoft owns them.
I bought like 3 used games in my entire life.
Also, only games I've bought pre-owned, are occasional wii games and early console games that are hard to get.
Well, Lionhead, maybe if Game Retailers didn't get so fucking little per unit sold for games, they wouldn't have to make up for it by preowned schemes, which are what are mostly keeping game retailers in business.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;29913202]Well, Lionhead, maybe if Game Retailers didn't get so fucking little per unit sold for games, they wouldn't have to make up for it by preowned schemes, which are what are mostly keeping game retailers in business.[/QUOTE]
GameStop made 4.7 billion off of non-used sales in 2010.
I'm pretty sure they can operate just fine with that amount of money.
There really isn't any other video game only retailers in NA of note, everything else sells other stuff besides games so I don't think what you just said is relevant.
I almost always buy new. I'd say I've bought a total of 5 games used, 2 of them because there were no new copies of the game in stock. The other few were times where I was purchasing with my parents around, who couldn't grasp the concept of why I wouldn't want to save $5.
The last part is also key. For parents who probably make a majority of purchases for their children, they'll always want to save the money.
Since I'm a PC gamer I tend to buy the majority of games new. PC games are generally far cheaper than console games new anyway and if not I wait until they go down in price, or, in the case of COD games which are fun but not worth £40, I'll buy a Russian key for half the price.
I would never pay £40 for a game, I'd probably put my maximum at £30.
I prefer to buy games first hand because that way I'm giving money to the developers.
Except the outlets buy the games wholesale from the publishers and keep them in the back. Every new purchase of Mass Effect is not giving Bioware more money, it's getting rid of one more game from the box on the shelf in the back of the store.
C definitely isn't true here in BC. A few years ago games may have been $60 but they're easily pushing $80 now
[QUOTE=Coffee;29914743]I prefer to buy games first hand because that way I'm giving money to the developers.[/QUOTE]
i actually believe games are too expensive so i withold from buying them
valve and paradox are the only developers(that arent indie) i play/buy games from these days since they make high quality games for a more reasonable price
[editline]18th May 2011[/editline]
i mean i cant justify 60 bucks for a call of duty "game"(expansion pack)
games seem to be getting shorter and shorter with a bigger price tag on it
i remember when you could buy a good game for 40 bucks, those were the days
i buy used games
most older games you can't buy new anyways, and if you do it's leftover stock so developer already made money from the copy being sold to the store.
Make good games.
[editline]19th May 2011[/editline]
Get profit.
Regarding the cost of games being $50-60 when brand new - yeah in Australia it has been $90-110 for as long as I can remember. Probably even worse in New Zealand.
The other points I can agree with though. I've moved to digital distribution mostly though, hopefully more people will in the future
[QUOTE=gnoob;29916399]Regarding the cost of games being $50-60 when brand new - yeah in Australia it has been $90-110 for as long as I can remember. Probably even worse in New Zealand.
The other points I can agree with though. I've moved to digital distribution mostly though, hopefully more people will in the future[/QUOTE]
what? how can anyone buy a game when it costs so much?
Wait... A game dev company that doesn't think that piracy is the devil? :psyduck:
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