Study finds diesels three times more likely to break down than petrol vehicles, cost 20% more to fix
75 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Diesel cars are more than three times as likely to break down as their petrol counterparts and will typically cost 20% more to fix when they go wrong.
Based on analysis of 30,000 faults on three- to eight-year-old petrol and diesel cars over 12 months, car maintenance firm MotorEasy found the average engine repair bill for a diesel was £517, compared with £433 for a petrol model. Diesel cars were sold to many buyers on the basis that they offered better fuel economy, and lower CO2 emissions. However, the VW emissions scandal forced an about-turn and diesels are now very much out of favour.
The study found that Alfa Romeo, Land Rover, Kia and Mazda diesels have the highest average engine repair cost when compared to petrol counterparts.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jan/27/diesel-cars-cheap-reliable-petrol[/url]
That's because modern emission regulations etc. and diesel being a very horrible fuel (NOx and whatnot) needs to have DPF-s and EGR-s and whatever to have a good emission rating. That's also the case here, in the article [quote]Duncan McClure Fisher, founder of MotorEasy, says: “Diesels experience many more small problems than petrol cars."[/quote]
Diesels run well, but don't pass emissions, fixing that is expensive.
Old diesels barely break down, not saying that they are better, but they only need a few wires to run and last for a long time. The most fun thing of course is when you get a runaway diesel - the oil rings leak so much that it starts burning oil instead of diesel.
This shouldn't be news to anyone. Diesel engines are and always have been a horrible idea for non-utility passenger vehicles, both from an environmental standpoint and an engineering one.
Hell, it takes took mainstream adoption of turbochargers for diesel engines to even hold a candle to their petrol-powered kin, and now that petrol cars are using them too I can't see any reason why you'd want to pull up beside the black pump.
They're noisy and produce tons of vibration (which necessitates increased complexity), they chuck out soot like it's going out of fashion (which is then fed back into the engine via the EGR system, meaning they clog up over time and lose power) and they produce more (and stronger) greenhouse gases.
What? diesels are usually extremely reliable as they're built extremely tough since diesels run very high compression in a constant state of knock/detonation, which shreds petrol motors.
[QUOTE=Amplar;53086784]What? diesels are usually extremely reliable as they're built extremely tough since diesels run very high compression in a constant state of knock/detonation, which shreds petrol motors.[/QUOTE]
Internally, yes - but it's all the ancillary stuff attached to them that breaks or clogs up, namely the modern emissions equipment fitted to them to get them to run as cleanly as petrol cars. Or the extra engineering involved to make them civilised for passenger car use.
My parents have both had diesel DCi Renaults in the past - the EGR valve clogs up with soot regularly (every 30,000 miles or so) and has to be removed and cleaned or outright replaced. A petrol engine, properly maintained, won't do this because the burn of fuel is much cleaner. Keep on top of servicing (especially oil) and you'll see 200,000 miles without any repairs with almost any modern petrol engine.
I'm very interested to see how electric cars compare to both in the long-term, but we'll probably have to wait for a few more years to really get some good data.
[QUOTE=Strike 86;53086774]This shouldn't be news to anyone. Diesel engines are and always have been a horrible idea for non-utility passenger vehicles, both from an environmental standpoint and an engineering one.
Hell, it takes took mainstream adoption of turbochargers for diesel engines to even hold a candle to their petrol-powered kin, and now that petrol cars are using them too I can't see any reason why you'd want to pull up beside the black pump.
They're noisy and produce tons of vibration (which necessitates increased complexity), they chuck out soot like it's going out of fashion (which is then fed back into the engine via the EGR system, meaning they clog up over time and lose power) and they produce more (and stronger) greenhouse gases.[/QUOTE]
It's entirely subjective and on a per-user basis.
For example, I drive a 3.0L Diesel Izuzu Trooper because I own 4 Llamas + Alpacas, so have to drive along a dirt track, carry bags of feed [I][B]AND[/B][/I] tow a horse box with a Llama weighing about the same as a medium sized horse (he's a big boy. Ex show Llama to) if they need to go to the vets etc.
A Petrol wouldn't be able to produce the amount of torque I need to pull a horse box for example, without going into stupidly high literage (and then fuel cost). My Trooper is actually pretty quiet considering the 3.0L engine and size of the car and there's been a few times I've actually overtaken a V8 powered Range because they couldn't accelerate fast enough (probably gearbox lag in their case since mine is manual). I've also yet to see an engine (non-diesel) which is able to reproduce the frequent 45 - 57mpg I get (which surprised me at first but it turns out the weight of the car allows it to "drift" along at speed without actually having to accelerate so I can keep the speed going for longer without using as much fuel in the process).
Granted I'm a "special case" and the general user won't need a diesel to the extent I do, but if you're out in the sticks away from Petrol stations - the better fuel mileage will help tremendously as you won't have to fill up as often.
Also on the note of less garages wanting to repair Diesels, when my Trooper needed its glowplugs drilled out (useless owner never replaced them in the life of the car (it was made in '03 so doesn't have any of the emission control stuff (doesn't need it according to the MOT reports) meaning less to go wrong) so they were seized) - almost all of the garages reluctantly admitted they'd prefer a petrol because "it's faster to work on" i.e more cars out the door in a day Vs a Diesel which would take longer. It's not 100% related to the complexity, more how much money they'd earn shooting Petrol cars out the door Vs a diesel.
Having worked for a contractor who bought a used F350 Powerstroke(6.0L Iirc) at 300k miles, last I saw him he put a little over 18k miles on it in a year and it kept going strong.
Probably a special case but I don’t doubt the longevity of most Diesel engines.
[QUOTE=Strike 86;53086774]This shouldn't be news to anyone. Diesel engines are and always have been a horrible idea for non-utility passenger vehicles, both from an environmental standpoint and an engineering one.
Hell, it takes took mainstream adoption of turbochargers for diesel engines to even hold a candle to their petrol-powered kin, and now that petrol cars are using them too I can't see any reason why you'd want to pull up beside the black pump.
They're noisy and produce tons of vibration (which necessitates increased complexity), they chuck out soot like it's going out of fashion (which is then fed back into the engine via the EGR system, meaning they clog up over time and lose power) and they produce more (and stronger) greenhouse gases.[/QUOTE]
Tbf diesels produce less greenhouse gas emissions than petrol cars, but they do produce more a lot more local air pollution with NOx, and particulates.
The MOT test is being revamped over here in May as well, which will hit diesels hard. The DPF, and EGR valves are now part of the test and blocking, modifying, or not having them working will fail you. They are also automatically failing any diesel cars that throw out ANY soot, and reducing the emissions test limits for any diesel cars from 2014 by half.
Maybe your teeny weenie economy diesel engines made out of lego pieces arent very reliable, but my 87 F250 diesel has well over 500,000 miles on it and is still running strong. Diesel doesnt make a car unreliable, shitty engineering does.
[QUOTE=Strike 86;53086774] (which is then fed back into the engine via the EGR system, meaning they clog up over time and lose power) [/QUOTE]
Not when you drive a Detroit 6.2 with no emissions systems at all :v:
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;53086900]
Probably a special case [/QUOTE]
Not at all, i've seen plenty of diesels with 300k+ miles on them without any major service
[QUOTE=Morgen;53086971]Tbf diesels produce less greenhouse gas emissions than petrol cars, but they do produce more a lot more local air pollution with NOx, and particulates.
The MOT test is being revamped over here in May as well, which will hit diesels hard. The DPF, and EGR valves are now part of the test and blocking, modifying, or not having them working will fail you. They are also automatically failing any diesel cars that throw out ANY soot, and reducing the emissions test limits for any diesel cars from 2014 by half.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like what was done a long time ago is now going to happen again on your MOT.
People are going to pay extra for getting their MOT illegally through an inside person at MOT or at their mechanic. Older cars - turn the fuel pressure down so much that it barely makes any power and also barely makes any emissions, newer cars - new fuel map with lower power and lower emissions.
[QUOTE=Birdman101;53087026]Maybe your teeny weenie economy diesel engines made out of lego pieces arent very reliable, but my 87 F250 diesel has well over 500,000 miles on it and is still running strong. Diesel doesnt make a car unreliable, shitty engineering does.[/QUOTE]
Should probably just stop using said shitty economy diesel engines, and go back to petrol, or electric.
Diesel engines break down faster because of shit maintainence. The fuel pumps and injectors require much less particulates in the fuel system than petrol systems, which means you really have to adhere to fuel filter servicing and what have you. This and the much higher pressures contained in the fuel system, especially on common rail systems contribute to the higher service prices too. However diesel has a higher energy density and it consumes more of the fuel per combustion which equates to lower CO and HC emissions. DPFs take care of most every thing else.
dunno man, old German diesels like the Merc 300D are pretty invulnerable with proper maintenance
Newer ones are more shit I guess
[QUOTE=Morgen;53087126]Should probably just stop using said shitty economy diesel engines, and go back to petrol, or electric.[/QUOTE]
Come off it. You can get equally shit petrol engines and even electric if they're made cheaply (that's not even beginning to mention the cost of a new motor vs an engine as electric cars aren't as serviceable as normal combustion engines).
The engine is fine as long as the owner isn't a retard who doesn't understand proper maintenance. Look after it properly, and it'll be the same across the board.
[QUOTE=Zenamez;53087280]Come off it. You can get equally shit petrol engines and even electric if they're made cheaply.
The engine is fine as long as the owner isn't a retard who doesn't understand proper maintenance. Look after it properly, and it'll be the same across the board.[/QUOTE]
Apparently not based on the OP? If it's a maintenance issue causing diesel cars to breakdown 3x as much as the petrol variant then clearly the average person is missing something.
[QUOTE=Morgen;53086971]Tbf diesels produce less greenhouse gas emissions than petrol cars, but they do produce more a lot more local air pollution with NOx, and particulates.
The MOT test is being revamped over here in May as well, which will hit diesels hard. The DPF, and EGR valves are now part of the test and blocking, modifying, or not having them working will fail you. They are also automatically failing any diesel cars that throw out ANY soot, and reducing the emissions test limits for any diesel cars from 2014 by half.[/QUOTE]
It won't hit as hard as you think, seeing as many are going for [URL="http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/100490/demand-for-second-hand-diesel-cars-grows-despite-dip-in-overall-used"]second hand diesel cars[/URL] instead of new ones - many of which will be made [B][I]BEFORE [/I][/B]any of the DPF and EGR items were fitted. If it doesn't exist - can't check for it, making the test easier to pass.
Then comes the emissions. As with the existing test, the older the car - the "lower" the barrier for passing the emissions.
In reality, it's only going to hit cars made from 2014 (when the DPF was made mandatory on new vehicles) onwards which is quite a small slice of vehicles on the road as many will want the "hassle free" approach and will just buy a pre-2014 vehicle instead (which is also cheaper in comparison).
[QUOTE=Zenamez;53087305]It won't hit as hard as you think, seeing as many are going for [URL="http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/100490/demand-for-second-hand-diesel-cars-grows-despite-dip-in-overall-used"]second hand diesel cars[/URL] instead of new ones - many of which will be made [B][I]BEFORE [/I][/B]any of the DPF and EGR items were fitted. If it doesn't exist - can't check for it, making the test easier to pass.
Then comes the emissions. As with the existing test, the older the car - the "lower" the barrier for passing the emissions.
In reality, it's only going to hit cars made from 2014 (when the DPF was made mandatory on new vehicles) onwards which is quite a small slice of vehicles on the road as many will want the "hassle free" approach and will just buy a pre-2014 vehicle instead (which is also cheaper in comparison).[/QUOTE]
Haven't DPF's effectively been mandatory since the Euro 5 standard came in, in about 2009?
[QUOTE=Morgen;53087288]Apparently not based on the OP? If it's a maintenance issue causing diesel cars to breakdown 3x as much as the petrol variant then clearly the average person is missing something.[/QUOTE]
See what doesn't click with that article is - where's the linked source? They mention Motoreasy but never specifically mention it again ([URL="https://www.motoreasy.com/magazine/202/Diesel-Cars-Are-3-Times-More-Likely-To-Break-Down-Than-Petrol"]I had to find it myself[/URL]). Then there's the lack of petrol figures to compare against. For all we know, the average petrol rate for some companies may be 1 or 2 percent below Diesels but there's no figures to back it up. In fact, for some companies - Petrols break down [B][I]MORE[/I][/B] than Diesels but that point is squirrelled away (also lacking figures which would have been nice to compare against).
There's also no mention on what the fault specifically was. It just says "break down". So was it a fuel pump (as fuel pressure has to be higher in a Diesel) or was it something else like a radiator leak? No mention. It would help the figures if it reported on "major repairs" being the issue for the breakdown but for all we know - it could just be something very simple.
It's a very shoddy "study" when there's no figures to compare against. We're just having to take their word - and what makes it worse is there's been more [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/aug/05/diesel-car-sales-overtake-petrol"]Diesel cars on the road Vs Petrol since 2010[/URL] which will influence the figures since there's more of them on the road.
It's also quite shocking how little the average driver knows about their engine/car in general (regardless of engine type). [URL="https://youtu.be/lk1LA7i0O0c?t=3m10s"]Take this Firth Gear episode [/URL]where they went around a supermarket carpark and almost none of the people they spoke to knew their engine needed oil and where to put it. Someone even drove about with the bare minimum which leads me to believe -[B][I] the average person really is missing something.
[/I][/B]
[editline]28th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Morgen;53087320]Haven't DPF's effectively been mandatory since the Euro 5 standard came in, in about 2009?[/QUOTE]
From what I've found on the Government's MOT booklet - it was only mandatory to have one in 2014 (same year they started to make sure one was fitted where applicable otherwise you'd fail the MOT).
[QUOTE=Zenamez;53087333]See what doesn't click with that article is - where's the linked source? They mention Motoreasy but never specifically mentioned it again ([URL="https://www.motoreasy.com/magazine/202/Diesel-Cars-Are-3-Times-More-Likely-To-Break-Down-Than-Petrol"]I had to find it myself[/URL]). Then there's the lack of petrol figures to compare against. For all we know, the average petrol rate for some companies may be 1 or 2 percent below Diesels but there's no figures to back it up. In fact, for some companies - Petrols break down [B][I]MORE[/I][/B] than Diesels but that point is squirrelled away (also lacking figures which would have been nice to compare against).
There's also no mention on what the fault specifically was. It just says "break down". So was it a fuel pump (as fuel pressure has to be higher in a Diesel) or was it something else like a water pump failure? No mention. It would help the figures if it reported on "major repairs" being the issue for the breakdown but for all we know - it could just be something very simple.
It's a very shoddy "study" when there's no figures to compare against. We're just having to take their word - and what makes it worse is there's been more [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/aug/05/diesel-car-sales-overtake-petrol"]Diesel cars on the road Vs Petrol since 2010[/URL] which will influence the figures since there's more of them on the road.
[editline]28th January 2018[/editline]
From what I've found on the Government's MOT booklet - it was only mandatory to have one in 2014 (same year they started to make sure one was fitted where applicable otherwise you'd fail the MOT).[/QUOTE]
It would be useful to see how petrols compare. Only seven manufacturers out of 25 apparently did better with diesel variants though. In regards to the DPF, it wasn't stated as a required thing until 2014, but with PM restrictions coming into force with Euro 5 it was effectively required, even if not tested on the MOT. The new MOT rules for DPF testing will test all cars that came with one is my understanding.
[editline]28th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE]It's also quite shocking how little the average driver knows about their engine/car in general (regardless of engine type). [URL="https://youtu.be/lk1LA7i0O0c?t=3m10s"]Take this Firth Gear episode [/URL]where they went around a supermarket carpark and almost none of the people they spoke to knew their engine needed oil and where to put it. Someone even drove about with the bare minimum which leads me to believe -[B][I] the average person really is missing something.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe dealers shouldn't of pushed cars that require more maintenance on these type of people then? EVs can't come soon enough for these people.
[QUOTE=Morgen;53087369]Maybe dealers shouldn't of pushed cars that require more maintenance on these type of people then? EVs can't come soon enough for these people.[/QUOTE]
They won't buy EVs unless they're as cheap as combustion engine cars. They just want something to go from A to B so will most likely swap checking oil levels to forgetting to charge it in the first place (or ruining the battery through incompetence) or at worst - jury rig the connector because it won't "fit" properly, which makes it a fire hazard instead.
[QUOTE=Zenamez;53087456]They won't buy EVs unless they're as cheap as combustion engine cars. They just want something to go from A to B so will most likely swap checking oil levels to forgetting to charge it in the first place ([B]or ruining the battery through incompetence[/B]).[/QUOTE]
It's pretty hard to do that. You can treat it less than optimally but it will probably have minimal impact on the battery health. Early 2020s you will start seeing the new Leaf come in mass to the used market (PCP contracts finishing), and there will be a bunch of other more affordable EVs on the new car market. I think forgetting to charge it is taking it a whole level further than forgetting to check the oil or whatever, the vast majority can remember to put fuel in their car.
The rumor I've been told is that the diesel engine were original supposed to run on peanut oil and that Rudolf Diesel was pushed off a boat so they could sell his engine like a petrol engine. Don't don't know how truth it is.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp;53087772]The rumor I've been told is that the diesel engine were original supposed to run on peanut oil and that Rudolf Diesel was pushed off a boat so they could sell his engine like a petrol engine. Don't don't know how truth it is.[/QUOTE]
how dare you besmirch rudolf diesel. He died to bring this alien technology to mankind!
ya there was some weird stuff surrounding his death.
[editline]27th January 2018[/editline]
ive been on the fence about buying a diesel car myself, though the chevy cruze does come with urea injection so the nox problem is sort of solved as far as i know, otherwise the 1.6l engine they put in there is the same in the diesel Colorado
They're too complex. There is an elegance in simplicity, with that elegance, comes dependability. Your chances of breaking down drop like a rock as you simplify the device.
[QUOTE=TestECull;53087931]They're too complex. There is an elegance in simplicity, with that elegance, comes dependability. Your chances of breaking down drop like a rock as you simplify the device.[/QUOTE]
Your chances of belching out obscene amounts of air pollutants also skyrocket at the same time.
I'm in the US so I don't know much about european diesels, but here in the US our diesel motors often last twice as much as low displacement diesels. As it's been stated before, diesels found in pickups can last almost a million miles, and larger engines in semis last even longer.
[editline]28th January 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;53087957]Your chances of belching out obscene amounts of air pollutants also skyrocket at the same time.[/QUOTE]
But honestly, to use a petrol motor with the same amount of output of a diesel you would need to up the displacement quite a lot and use a lot more fuel, will end up being just as polluting.
[QUOTE=Amplar;53087999]I'm in the US so I don't know much about european diesels, but here in the US our diesel motors often last twice as much as low displacement diesels. As it's been stated before, diesels found in pickups can last almost a million miles, and larger engines in semis last even longer.
[editline]28th January 2018[/editline]
But honestly, to use a petrol motor with the same amount of output of a diesel you would need to up the displacement quite a lot and use a lot more fuel, will end up being just as polluting.[/QUOTE]
Thing is most people don't [I]need[/I] that kind of power or torque. So they're either burning petrol needlessly, or filling the air with smog.
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