Oskar Gröning 'Bookkeeper of Auschwitz' asks for pardon - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE]Lower Saxony's justice ministry confirmed the pardon request had been received from Gröning. It is the last stage in the appeal process for a pardon for his crimes perpetrated at Auschwitz in 1944. The 96-year-old Gröning was sentenced in 2015 as an accessory to the murders of at least 300,000 Hungarian Jews between May and July 1944. Three years before, in 1941, he had volunteered for the SS when he was a 20-year-old bank clerk. Gröning collected the valuables found in the luggage and clothes of prisoners when they arrived at the Nazi-German Auschwitz-Birkenau camp located in what is now southern Poland. His record keeping earned him the name "Bookkeeper of Auschwitz." "It is without question that I am morally complicit in the murder of millions of Jews through my activities at Auschwitz," Gröning said at his trial. "Before the victims, I also admit to this moral guilt here, with regret and humility." His appeal to Lower Saxony's justice minister, Barbara Havliza, a member of the conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) is the final legal step available to him in obtaining a pardon. In mid-January, the prosecutor's office in Lüneburg rejected Gröning's petition for a pardon. His lawyer had argued in favor of an amnesty because of Gröning's age and frail health.[/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://www.dw.com/en/oskar-gr%C3%B6ning-bookkeeper-of-auschwitz-asks-for-pardon/a-42792940[/url]

"It is without question that I am morally complicit in the murder of millions of Jews through my activities at Auschwitz,"? I don't think it is without question, at all. In fact, I think there is a lot to be questioned and talked about.

i bet we all did Nazi that coming. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("alt of perma'd user" - Orkel))[/highlight]

They really should. He's most likely going to die in the next nein months anyways. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Hilarious" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

Holding a 96 year old in prison seems like a waste of resources.

[QUOTE=redBadger;53174818]Holding a 96 year old in prison seems like a waste of resources.[/QUOTE] I mean, the idea is obviously to prove a point/set a precedence. Whether or not it's a good point or precedence to set is the question - I, for the most part, think that it is not.

[QUOTE=redBadger;53174818]Holding a 96 year old in prison seems like a waste of resources.[/QUOTE] Murder should never have a statue of limitations. [editline]3rd March 2018[/editline] Especially mass genocidal murder.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53174896]Murder should never have a statue of limitations. [editline]3rd March 2018[/editline] Especially mass genocidal murder.[/QUOTE] Depends on what you think the goal of justice is. If your idea of justice is revenge, then sure.

[QUOTE=redBadger;53174818]Holding a 96 year old in prison seems like a waste of resources.[/QUOTE] He's not there for fear of re offense, but because it can't be shown that you can just out live responsibility

[QUOTE=geel9;53174903]Depends on what you think the goal of justice is. If your idea of justice is revenge, then sure.[/QUOTE] I'm curious to what you think should be done about the school shooter in Florida, a very much more reason crime. If he gives a very honest apology and promises to never hurt a fly ever again, should he just be let go? Alternatively, if he had escaped like he tried to after the shooting, how long until "ah well it was a too long ago to punish him now"? A week? A year? A decade?

It's really stupid to prosecute this guy, if he didn't do it someone would have taken his place. It's not like he was some SS obsessed lunatic that tortured and personally shot a bunch of prisoners, he was just a bookkeeper. He has some responsibility but to say hes personally responsible for over 300000 cases of accessory to murder is just a feelgood prosecution thats just meaningless.

What would jailing this old man achieve? That society will keep haunting you for mistakes you've tried to atone for?

[QUOTE=Duskin;53174969]It's really stupid to prosecute this guy, if he didn't do it someone would have taken his place. It's not like he was some SS obsessed lunatic that tortured and personally shot a bunch of prisoners, he was just a bookkeeper. He has some responsibility but to say hes personally responsible for over 300000 cases of accessory to murder is just a feelgood prosecution thats just meaningless.[/QUOTE] He wasn't a bookkeeper, that's just a nickname. In the article: "Gröning collected the valuables found in the luggage and clothes of prisoners when they arrived at the Nazi-German Auschwitz-Birkenau camp located in what is now southern Poland. His record keeping earned him the name "Bookkeeper of Auschwitz." "

[QUOTE=Duskin;53174969]It's really stupid to prosecute this guy, if he didn't do it someone would have taken his place. It's not like he was some SS obsessed lunatic that tortured and personally shot a bunch of prisoners, he was just a bookkeeper. He has some responsibility but to say hes personally responsible for over 300000 cases of accessory to murder is just a feelgood prosecution thats just meaningless.[/QUOTE] But he DID do it. If someone else did it they'd be facing the same sentence

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53174896]Murder should never have a statue of limitations. [editline]3rd March 2018[/editline] Especially mass genocidal murder.[/QUOTE] For one thing he never actually killed anyone or participated in executing any prisoners at the camp his main role was counting and sorting money of the prisoners that were brought into the camp and stealing their personal belongings. Which is obviously fucked up but he didn't actually participate in any of the executions. At the end of the war he left the prison camp and joined a combat unit of the SS and was captured by the British and sent to a prisoner of war camp. When the war was over he was sent back to Germany and said nothing about what happened during the holocaust for forty years and only began to speak out about the holocaust when he began to notice that holocaust denial was on the rise in the 80's. He spoke out against the holocaust deniers and made the events that he took part in the holocaust known. So instead of denying that the holocaust didn't happen and rather then being an unrepentant Nazi bigot he decided to do a good thing and help raise the awareness of the holocaust and the events that took place seventy something years ago. He also apologized for what happened as well. So he has atoned for what he did. He wasn't a murderer he was an asshole that stole from people that were about to be sent to their death. While that is despicable it certainly doesn't make him as evil as the one's doing the killings and taking part in them. He also requested a transfer numerous times and wasn't allowed to until late in the war, he was a dumb kid that got involved in something he shouldn't have At least he tried to get out of what was going on, proving once he seen what was happening he realized what he got himself into. Instead of locking him up they should've used him as an example of forgiveness and reconciliation to show that Jews are kind and forgiving people. By putting an old 96 year old man in prison people are just creating more antisemitism, playing into the bigots hands. I think making him an activist would've been a much better solution then sending him to prison.

[QUOTE=GentlemanLexi;53175025]What would jailing this old man achieve? That society will keep haunting you for mistakes you've tried to atone for?[/QUOTE] I would imagine participating in the Holocaust as a bit more than "a mistake".

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53175135]I would imagine participating in the Holocaust as a bit more than "a mistake".[/QUOTE] Of course he was young and was brainwashed by the Nazi propaganda of the era and volunteered to join the SS and once he arrived at the concentration camps and seen what was going on he realized what he got himself into.

Imagine yourselves in the shoes of any ordinary German man of that time. Of course they were not born to be intrinsicly horrible beings. They were regular people just like you and I, but extraordinary circumstances made them do horrible things. We would all had done the same if we had been in his shoes. Get creative and out of your own head. [editline]4th March 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53175135]I would imagine participating in the Holocaust as a bit more than "a mistake".[/QUOTE] And you can imagine that because you know this now. Things were different back then, otherwise things would obviously look different.

[QUOTE=geel9;53174903]Depends on what you think the goal of justice is. If your idea of justice is revenge, then sure.[/QUOTE] If somebody actually commits murder then yes there should be no statue of limitations ever Oscar groening is not a murderer though he did some evil things but murder wasn't one of them.

I think this is very important background information: [QUOTE]Gröning worked as a bookkeeper for a year until 1942, when the SS ordered that desk jobs would be reserved for injured veterans, and that fit members in administrative roles were to be subjected to more challenging duties.[3]:141 Gröning and about 22 of his colleagues travelled to Berlin where they reported to one of the SS economic offices.[3]:141 They were then given a lecture by several high-ranking officers who reminded them of the oath of loyalty they took, which they could prove by doing a difficult task.[3]:141 The task was top secret – Gröning and his comrades had to sign a declaration that they would not disclose it to family or friends, or people not in their unit.[3]:141 Once this had concluded, they were split into smaller groups and taken to various Berlin stations where they boarded a train in the direction of Katowice with orders to report to the commandant of Auschwitz, a place Gröning had not heard of before.[3]:141 Upon arrival at the main camp, they were given provisional bunks in the SS barracks, warmly greeted by fellow SS men and provided with food.[3]:142 Gröning was surprised at the myriad food items available in addition to basic SS rations. The new arrivals were curious about what function Auschwitz served.[3]:142 They were told that they should find out for themselves because Auschwitz was a special kind of concentration camp. Immediately someone opened the door and shouted "Transport!", causing three or four people to leave the room.[3]:142 His bureaucratic job did not shield him completely from physical acts of the extermination process: as early as his first day, Gröning saw children hidden on the train and people unable to walk that had remained among the rubbish and debris after the selection process had been completed, being shot. After witnessing this, Gröning claims he went to his boss and told him that he could not work at Auschwitz anymore, stating that if the extermination of the Jews is necessary, "then at least it should be done within a certain framework".[3]:138 Gröning claims that his superior officer denied this request citing a document he had signed before being posted, forcing him to continue his work.[3]:138 They watched as an SS man put on a gas mask and emptied a tin of Zyklon B into a hatch in the cottage wall. Gröning said the humming noise from inside "turned to screaming" for a minute, then to silence.[3]:167 A comrade later showed him the bodies being burnt in a pit. A Kapo there told him details of the burning, such as how gases developed in the body and made the burning corpses move.[3]:167 Gröning claims that this disrupted the relative tranquility his job gave him and he claims he yet again complained to his superior.[3]:167–168 His boss, an SS-Untersturmführer, listened but reminded him of the pledge that he and his comrades made. Gröning thus returned to work. He has declared that he manipulated his life at Auschwitz so as to avoid witnessing the camp's most unpalatable aspects.[3]:168[/QUOTE] Source: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning[/url]

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;53175001]He was a volunteering member of the SS. Whether or not he was personally a psychopath is irrelevant as well.[/QUOTE] If I was unfortunate enough to have been in his position, I might have volunteered for the SS too. As much as I hate it, the only other option would be being sent to the east front. And that's pretty much a death sentence. If there was a chance for me to get away from a war I don't want to fight, I'd take it. An administrative desk job is pretty much the best option, unless I had the chance to flee from the country.

[QUOTE=geel9;53174903]Depends on what you think the goal of justice is. If your idea of justice is revenge, then sure.[/QUOTE] if you're being tried in a human rights court then you've already been removed from power and are 100% incapable of committing further war crimes. normal conceptions of justice don't apply when recidivism is completely removed from the equation.

I really don't see a point in jailing him, just so they can stand on their pedestal with hands on hips saying "We did it, we finally defeated the Nazis"

BUT IF WE DON'T JAIL HIM, THE NAZIS WIN

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53174896]Murder should never have a statue of limitations. [editline]3rd March 2018[/editline] Especially mass genocidal murder.[/QUOTE] Devils avocado here, but it was not illegal when he was an accountant there, and no first world country should retroactively punish people for laws made after the fact. Also he was a fucking accountant. Also this is a civilian court not a military one, so you can't even get a gotcha on that one.

[QUOTE=Crimor;53175330]Devils avocado here, but it was not illegal when he was an accountant there, and no first world country should retroactively punish people for laws made after the fact. Also he was a fucking accountant. Also this is a civilian court not a military one, so you can't even get a gotcha on that one.[/QUOTE] This is the same argument my insane libertarian uncle uses to justify the Holocaust. Are you serious? I'm not in favor of jailing Groening nor am I even convinced he should have been convicted of anything in the past but that is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53175348]This is the same argument my insane libertarian uncle uses to justify the Holocaust. Are you serious? I'm not in favor of jailing Groening nor am I even convinced he should have been convicted of anything in the past but that is an absolutely ridiculous argument.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying it's not morally wrong, it is, but it is not legally wrong in a civilian court, they'd have a good chance in a military one.

[QUOTE=Crimor;53175361]I'm not saying it's not morally wrong, it is, but it is not legally wrong in a civilian court, they'd have a good chance in a military one.[/QUOTE] If you want to be pedantic, not only was the Nazi German government technically illegitimate (meaning as far as the civilian court is concerned, they could prosecute them under Imperial German law if they cared about ex post facto in this case), but the death camp proceedings actually [I]were[/I] illegal per German law at the time and prior to the death camps being activated, several concentration camp administrators had been prosecuted for murder/general negligence as a result of accidental or "accidental" deaths of Jews. While it remained illegal under German law after the death camp proceedings began, extremism had obviously reached a point where those prosecutions no longer occurred. So yeah, it fucking was illegal.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53175135]I would imagine participating in the Holocaust as a bit more than "a mistake".[/QUOTE] Oh right, because when you join the SS(so the administrative branch) 2 years before the Holocaust even begins, it's surely because you want to take part in it ?

[QUOTE=Hardpoint Nomad;53175259]"We did it, we finally defeated the Nazis"[/QUOTE] That doesn't really work anymore now that there is a new generation of Nazis. You can punish the people taking part, but the ideals will likely never die.