12-year-old boy who transitioned to female has now changed their mind. - Sensationalist Headlines

60 Minute interview trailer [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcxOOWbrC6k[/media] [quote]An Australian schoolboy who decided to transition into a female has changed his mind two years later. At just 12-years-old, Patrick Mitchell, begged with his mother to begin taking oestrogen hormones after doctors diagnosed him with gender dysphoria – a condition where a person experiences distress because there is a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. “You wish you could just change everything about you, you just see any girl and you say I'd kill to be like that”, Mitchell told 60 Minutes. After heeding advice from professionals who suggested that it was right choice, his mother was fully supportive and Mitchell began to transition. He grew out his hair and started to take the hormones, which caused his body to grow breasts. But two years on, Mitchell had a change of heart. In the beginning of 2017, teachers at school began to refer to him as a girl which triggered Mitchell to question if he had made the right decision. “I began to realise I was actually comfortable in my body. Every day I just felt better,” he told Now To Love. As a result, Mitchell confided in his mother and explained that he wanted to transition back into a boy. “He looked me in the eye and said ‘I'm just not sure that I am a girl’”, his mother explained. Now, in a bid to revert back to his original body, he has stopped taking his medication and is about to have an operation to remove excess breast tissue in what will be the final stage of his transition.[/quote] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/12-year-old-boy-trans-female-change-mind-years-later-patrick-mitchell-australia-oestrogen-hormones-a7933741.html[/url] [url]http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/patricks-pain-i-didnt-know-who-the-person-staring-back-at-me-was/news-story/65ff86c8bfe269109f1b28cbeb93ab7a[/url] I think this will be an interesting situation to follow considering the debate on when parents should help transition their kids or not, and what risks/consequences there are at starting at such a young age.

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think transitioning as a whole would be safer it was only allowed after the age of consent or adulthood, whatever that is in your country. Usually that means "old enough to make adult decisions".

Sounds like the doctors were a bit hasty with their diagnosis

Isn't it possible to take "puberty blockers" [I]without [/I]taking estrogen/testosterone exactly to avoid this sort of situation? Going off limited second hand knowledge here.

I've never agreed that hormone therapy of any sort should be started at such a young age because of situations like this, I feel that this is a very rare scenario. I'm interested to see the full report and draw more reasoning from that but it seems rather odd that the mere fact that he was referred to as a girl by teachers brought on the shock realization that he doesn't really wanna be a girl anymore? Like did he just never present publically as female up until a certain point? Was he never referred to as female ever by anyone else? Why specifically the teachers?

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;52661358]Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think transitioning as a whole would be safer it was only allowed after the age of consent or adulthood, whatever that is in your country. Usually that means "old enough to make adult decisions".[/QUOTE] 16 seems a bit more reasonable, at that point you can drive and hold down a job in the US legally. Or at the very least they'd be able to enter psychological consideration at that point, with it being possible to prepare treatment for their 18th birthday.

I don't really see any problems here -- assume both cases. One, they commit to transitioning at a young age, before puberty sets in and makes it extremely difficult to fully transition -- that's a win. Two, and what happened here, they have a change of heart and because they started transitioning early, it's still reversible without much difficulty. Again, that's a positive. Also worth noting that this is rare, even in younger trans people. To my knowledge, the rate of "transitioning regret" is the same across all age groups at a little less than 5%.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52661380]16 seems a bit more reasonable, at that point you can drive and hold down a job in the US legally. Or at the very least they'd be able to enter psychological consideration at that point, with it being possible to prepare treatment for their 18th birthday.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's completely fair.

The problem with setting an age restraint of, say, 16, is that it makes it [I]much more[/I] emotionally taxing on someone to transition -- particularly for people not out yet. Everyone you know knows you as one gender, and it's hard to break that perception in the general populace. Transitioning at 16 has a lot of social problems that can be avoided entirely by transitioning earlier. e: in addition to what i was saying above, about ease of transition and flexibility.

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;52661379]I've never agreed that hormone therapy of any sort should be started at such a young age because of situations like this, I feel that this is a very rare scenario. I'm interested to see the full report and draw more reasoning from that but it seems rather odd that the mere fact that he was referred to as a girl by teachers brought on the shock realization that he doesn't really wanna be a girl anymore? Like did he just never present publically as female up until a certain point? Was he never referred to as female ever by anyone else? Why specifically the teachers?[/QUOTE] It really depends on how reliable we find their predictions to be. If there's a guaranteed way to know if someone's trans, there really aint a reason not to give HRT/Puberty blockers. [URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/[/URL] However it seems to not be the case that kids can be trusted on this.

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;52661379]I've never agreed that hormone therapy of any sort should be started at such a young age because of situations like this, I feel that this is a very rare scenario. I'm interested to see the full report and draw more reasoning from that but it seems rather odd that the mere fact that he was referred to as a girl by teachers brought on the shock realization that he doesn't really wanna be a girl anymore? Like did he just never present publically as female up until a certain point? Was he never referred to as female ever by anyone else? Why specifically the teachers?[/QUOTE] Problem is that there are studies showing that the trend is the opposite. Where most kids who experience gender dysphoria typically don't continue with it. [quote]Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism. The current state of research on this subject does not allow any valid diagnostic parameters to be identified with which one could reliably predict whether the manifestations of GID will persist, i.e., whether transsexualism will develop with certainty or, at least, a high degree of probability. Conclusions The types of modulating influences that are known from the fields of developmental psychology and family dynamics have therapeutic implications for GID. As children with GID only rarely go on to have permanent transsexualism, irreversible physical interventions are clearly not indicated until after the individual’s psychosexual development ist complete. The identity-creating experiences of this phase of development should not be restricted by the use of LHRH analogues that prevent puberty.[/quote] [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/[/url] [editline]8th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=thelurker1234;52661398] [URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/[/URL] However it seems to not be the case that kids can be trusted on this.[/QUOTE] Ah someone ninjaed me.

[QUOTE=Bertie;52661376]Isn't it possible to take "puberty blockers" [I]without [/I]taking estrogen/testosterone exactly to avoid this sort of situation? Going off limited second hand knowledge here.[/QUOTE] Yes, technically. The effects of putting kids on them to avoid puberty for transition reasons isn't fully understood though, as it hasn't really been used in such a capacity before. Just a risk to keep in mind.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;52661386]I don't really see any problems here -- assume both cases. One, they commit to transitioning at a young age, before puberty sets in and makes it extremely difficult to fully transition -- that's a win. Two, and what happened here, they have a change of heart and because they started transitioning early, it's still reversible without much difficulty. Again, that's a positive. Also worth noting that this is rare, even in younger trans people. [b]To my knowledge, the rate of "transitioning regret" is the same across all age groups at a little less than 5%.[/b][/QUOTE] apparently it's much higher though: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth[/url] [quote]Research from the US and Holland suggests that [b]up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex.[/b] A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.[/quote] 20% unacceptably high figure, especially if it makes the quality of life for those who regret it much worse

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52661398]It really depends on how reliable we find their predictions to be. [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/[/url] However it seems to not be the case that kids can be trusted on this.[/QUOTE] From the results section of that abstract: [quote]As there have been no large studies to date on the course of GID, and, in particular, no studies focusing on causal factors for GID, the evidence level for the various etiological models that have been proposed is generally low. Most models of these disorders assume that they result from a complex biopsychosocial interaction. Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism. The current state of research on this subject does not allow any valid diagnostic parameters to be identified with which one could reliably predict whether the manifestations of GID will persist, i.e., whether transsexualism will develop with certainty or, at least, a high degree of probability.[/quote] While it's not worth dismissing the study, it is important to take it in context. It's from 2008 -- we know a lot more now about GID and it's becoming more socially accepted, although still prohibitively dangerous, to be out as trans. It's not uncommon for children to show signs of being gender-deviant, but have that be ironed out by parents -- they'll still deal with gender dysphoria, and may be more comfortable presenting as the other gender, but because of social barriers they are forced to remain cis.

Kids really shouldn't be worried about Gender issues at that age. Its good if they acknowledge that LGBT people exist and are normal people, but really you should let them make up their mind about their identity once they hit like late teens or early 20s.

Wasn't part of the scientific support for gender dysphoria something to do with brain scans showing patterns that more closely match that of the opposite of their biological sex? If that's legitimate, could that not be used to verify the condition?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52661411]apparently it's much higher though: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth[/url] 20% unacceptably high figure, especially if it makes the quality of life for those who regret it much worse[/QUOTE] Here's the study I'm referencing, which points to figures around the 5% range. [url]http://www.transstudent.org/Affirming_Gender.pdf[/url] (e: This is not a rigorous study, as pointed out by Sobotnik below) e: [QUOTE=Uber22;52661414]Kids really shouldn't be worried about Gender issues at that age. Its good if they acknowledge that LGBT people exist and are normal people, but usually you would expect them to really make up their mind about their identity once they hit like late teens or early 20s.[/QUOTE] It's not really a matter of "worrying about gender issues", it's gender dysphoria. You wouldn't tell a kid with ADHD to "not worry about being hyperactive", or a kid with OCD to "not worry about being obsessive" -- they're real, diagnosable conditions.

I always find it weird when people say that if you start blockers early it will make the transition easier. Jazz Jennings started at a young age and now she doesn't have enough penile tissue to have turned into a vagina. They're going to have to use her colon if they want to make an artificial vagina. If anything it seems to have complicated the issue. Edit: Not to do a ratings callout, but for the people who rated disagree I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a real documented case were the blockers made someone's life more difficult. What about it do you disagree with?

[QUOTE=Beetle179;52661416]Here's the study I'm referencing, which points to figures around the 5% range. [url]http://www.transstudent.org/Affirming_Gender.pdf[/url] e: It's not really a matter of "worrying about gender issues", it's gender dysphoria. You wouldn't tell a kid with ADHD to "not worry about being hyperactive", or a kid with OCD to "not worry about being obsessive" -- they're real, diagnosable conditions.[/QUOTE] [quote]This project was designed as a community study, not as a formal research project.[/quote] [quote]The survey sample was not randomly selected, and it is not appropriate to generalize the findings to all transgender people.[/quote] the one you quoted is extremely limited and suffers from loads of methodological problems. it's basically useless if you're wanting to say that 5% of people regret transitioning

I'm confused with the video relating to the article. At 0:30 the guy saying the mom gave estrogen pills prescribed to the mom and not the kid, meanwhile the only things the doctors have did was just give a diagnoses.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52661429]the one you quoted is extremely limited and suffers from loads of methodological problems. it's basically useless if you're wanting to say that 5% of people regret transitioning[/QUOTE] Good catch -- I wasn't aware it wasn't a rigorous study. I do stand by the notion, though, that social stigma is an extremely important factor that plays into these numbers, and isn't addressed appropriately. From The Guardian article -- [quote]A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.[/quote] Ignoring the age of the study for now, the article doesn't speak to the extreme ostracism that a lot of trans people face, which I believe is what contributes to higher rates of suicide, depression, etc.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;52661439]Good catch -- I wasn't aware it wasn't a rigorous study. I do stand by the notion, though, that social stigma is an extremely important factor that plays into these numbers, and isn't addressed appropriately.[/quote] you weren't aware that it wasn't a rigorous study, when it explicitly mentions in it that it isn't a rigorous study? did you actually read it? [quote]Ignoring the age of the study for now, the article doesn't speak to the extreme ostracism that a lot of trans people face, which I believe is what contributes to higher rates of suicide, depression, etc.[/QUOTE] can this explain the entire disparity though? the article is talking about how the evidence for SRS not being robust enough to support the conclusion that SRS is necessarily going to reduce depression, suicide, etc

Well no shit. Most medical things you cannot make until your a consenting adult so why this shit was allowed in the first place I dont understand.

[QUOTE=dunkace;52661493]Well no shit. Most medical things you cannot make until your a consenting adult so why this shit was allowed in the first place I dont understand.[/QUOTE] In all fairness it's not like the kid just walked into the doctors office on their own and made the decision independently.

[QUOTE=Uber22;52661414]Kids really shouldn't be worried about Gender issues at that age. Its good if they acknowledge that LGBT people exist and are normal people, but really you should let them make up their mind about their identity once they hit like late teens or early 20s.[/QUOTE] the problem is that that's already after puberty hits - and having your body change in ways you don't want it to change (even if only subconsciously) is quite depressing and can even lead to suicide. if signs of gender dysphoria are detected at an young age, then the logical thing is to delay the puberty through hormone blockers (not actual hormones!) - if it turns out the person in question was not trans then they can simply get off them, and then puberty hits and all is fine in the world. if they're trans then they can start taking hormones, transition and all is fine in the world giving actual hormones when you're so young is tbh asking for trouble

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52661455]you weren't aware that it wasn't a rigorous study, when it explicitly mentions in it that it isn't a rigorous study? did you actually read it? can this explain the entire disparity though? the article is talking about how the evidence for SRS not being robust enough to support the conclusion that SRS is necessarily going to reduce depression, suicide, etc[/QUOTE] Not carefully, no. I was referred this study by a friend a while ago and had it saved. I would disagree that it suffers from "loads of methodological problems" -- it seems like a pretty typical opt-in survey study to me. Not to say that that type of study doesn't come with problems, but that certainly doesn't make its conclusions "basically useless" as you say. Can it explain the disparity? I don't know -- I'm not an expert. My problem with articles like the Guardian one is that they don't posit much reason for [I]why[/I] people may be unsatisfied with their transition, instead pulling numbers and using those alone to draw conclusions without context. Hopefully that makes sense, I'm not great at articulating myself.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;52661416]Here's the study I'm referencing, which points to figures around the 5% range. [url]http://www.transstudent.org/Affirming_Gender.pdf[/url] (e: This is not a rigorous study, as pointed out by Sobotnik below) e: It's not really a matter of "worrying about gender issues", it's gender dysphoria. You wouldn't tell a kid with ADHD to "not worry about being hyperactive", or a kid with OCD to "not worry about being obsessive" -- they're real, diagnosable conditions.[/QUOTE] Extremely anecdotal but I had some mild dysphoria and serious recurring nightmares as early as 8 years old. Like, consistent non-sexual nightmares about not being considered feminine by my peers as a child. Only after doing some research as I got older did I really really understand any of this. If you want my opinion, it's not the kids fault. It's that we haven't considered this science for long enough to make proper diagnoses yet. It's going to be a long time before the medical side of this catches up. This feels like a person being schizophrenic a few decades ago. We know people can turn out to be a certain way but we don't know how and why yet, not on a national or global level like we will after some time.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;52661416]It's not really a matter of "worrying about gender issues", it's gender dysphoria. You wouldn't tell a kid with ADHD to "not worry about being hyperactive", or a kid with OCD to "not worry about being obsessive" -- they're real, diagnosable conditions.[/QUOTE] And unlike gender dysphoria, a kid can't suddenly realize that he/she doesn't have it anymore.

[QUOTE=Omali;52661518]And unlike gender dysphoria, a kid can't suddenly realize that he/she doesn't have it anymore.[/QUOTE] *snip* read that wrong I thought there have also been kids that grew out of ADHD and the like as well.

[QUOTE=krosos8;52661512]the problem is that that's already after puberty hits - and having your body change in ways you don't want it to change (even if only subconsciously) is quite depressing and can even lead to suicide. if signs of gender dysphoria are detected at an young age, then the logical thing is to delay the puberty through hormone blockers (not actual hormones!) - if it turns out the person in question was not trans then they can simply get off them, and then puberty hits and all is fine in the world. if they're trans then they can start taking hormones, transition and all is fine in the world giving actual hormones when you're so young is tbh asking for trouble[/QUOTE] My guess is that the best solution is possibly developing better methods in detecting it earlier. If we're able to create a type of method or brain scan that is allowed to determine if a child has gender dysphoria of some type, it should be used on children if they exhibit the behavior of that. Its fine if that is required to use hormone blockers in order to help a teenager who exhibits gender dysphoria and is undergoing puberty and wants to avoid those type of hormones. So they're able to transition into the other gender more effectively. I think the issue here is allowing kids to be in charge of this decision making. I feel like the parents of these children should at least find a specialist or doctor in determining their child has gender dysphoria if they exhibit those behaviors. Mostly its just being careful because kids and tweens are fucking stupid and their brains are still developing. So a kid who doesn't actually have gender dysphoria for some reason wants to be the other gender. I feel like taking a more serious approach with this would solidify the existence of Trans-people among the general public. Because a common stereotype is people wanting to change because of choice, even though, time and time again thats been proven wrong since Trans people don't really have a choice in determining their gender. Because there is something actively in their brain telling them they're the other gender.