Poor pensioner fined €2,000 for picking up empty beer bottle in Munich station - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE]A 76-year-old woman, who was collecting used beer bottles to supplement her pension, has been heavily fined and now has a criminal record after picking up an empty bottle at Munich’s central station. Anna Leeb had been collecting returnable beer bottles in and around the Bavarian capital’s main station to add to her pension for several years, reported newspaper TZ (TZ) on Tuesday. Germany has a "Pfand" system, whereby people who return empty bottles get a small amount of cash in exchange. Recently while walking through the station and wanting to take a shortcut due to her hip problems, she grabbed a bottle and took it with her. But immediately afterwards she was caught by two Deutsche Bahn employees. The court has fined the disabled woman €2,000 and she now has a criminal record, report TZ. According to the rail company, cleanliness is an important factor for their customers. If people “rummage in the waste bins, then a lot of waste falls next to it,” a spokesperson from Deutsche Bahn said. But Leeb argues that before the ban, some Deutsche Bahn employees had been encouraging with regard to the collection of empty bottles. “Often conductors have stopped me and asked me if I could pick up empty bottles from the trains," said Leeb.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.thelocal.de/20170921/pensioner-fined-2000-for-collecting-empty-beer-bottle-in-munich-station[/url]

excuse me [editline]22nd September 2017[/editline] exactly where is the problem

This makes no sense. There was reasoning behind making bottles depositable. Why on earth would you fine those who seeks out bottles, depostit them and there by making this exact system there is in place reasonable.

Most Pfandsammlers are ok people, but some of them are real cunts.

[QUOTE=portalcrazy;52705527]excuse me [editline]22nd September 2017[/editline] exactly where is the problem[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The rail officials were the same people who had banned Leeb from earning some extra income at the station two years previously. At the time, she had been warned about collecting bottles as it was against the station rules. [/QUOTE] In the article. She knew she was banned from the station.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52705628]The fact that she was warned before, it is against the stations regulations and she apparently has to rummage through the garbage bins to get the bottles, which is kind of important, because I dont think she was doing it carefully - otherwise there'd be no problem and definitely no fine. I thought they just grabbed her out of the blue and hit her with a court summon but reading the article it really makes it seem like this was a recurrent problem and that she was most likely leaving garbage all over the place trying to get the bottles out of the bins. What a silly event to make a news article about.[/QUOTE] I see a lot of people picking out bottles from waste bins, and I've honestly never seen anyone carelessly throwing around trash. Maybe she did, but in my experience bottle collectors tend to be pretty careful with this stuff.

glad to see government resources spent all of the REAL criminals here /s

[QUOTE=portalcrazy;52705527]excuse me [editline]22nd September 2017[/editline] exactly where is the problem[/QUOTE] because fining the old and poor is completely morally bankrupt and doesn't solve the issue of people collecting returnables from the station. If you want to stop people from scavenging through the trash make sure there is nothing to scavenge, fining the impoverished doesn't stop them from scavenging it just makes criminals.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;52705628]The fact that she was warned before, it is against the stations regulations and she apparently has to rummage through the garbage bins to get the bottles, which is kind of important, because I dont think she was doing it carefully - otherwise there'd be no problem and definitely no fine. I thought they just grabbed her out of the blue and hit her with a court summon but reading the article it really makes it seem like this was a recurrent problem and that she was most likely leaving garbage all over the place trying to get the bottles out of the bins. [/QUOTE] So clearly, the best solution was to humiliate the impoverished person in public and slap them with a 2000E fine instead of asking them to be careful and clean up after themselves. Seems like there was inconsistency with how employees treated the issue as well. That's also worth pointing out. The human thing to do woud've been to give her a job as a custodian or something. Would anyone have had issues with that? [QUOTE=Marbalo;52705628]What a silly event to make a news article about.[/QUOTE] What a pointless comment.

[QUOTE=Furioso;52708894]So clearly, the best solution was to humiliate the impoverished person in public and slap them with a 2000E fine [B]instead of asking them to be careful and clean up after themselves.[/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The rail officials were the same people who had banned Leeb from earning some extra income at the station two years previously. At the time, she had been warned about collecting bottles as it was against the station rules.[/QUOTE] She was warned, she came back and did it, she was banned, she came back and did it. How many chances do you need to give someone who doesn't want to listen?

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52708735]I see a lot of people picking out bottles from waste bins, and I've honestly never seen anyone carelessly throwing around trash. Maybe she did, but in my experience bottle collectors tend to be pretty careful with this stuff.[/QUOTE] Maybe it's a regional thing, but we've had lots of problems with homeless (as well as the "homeless") going up and down streets on trash days and dumping shit out all over the place. It really sucks for people using the local trash company* because they severely clamped down on what they will overlook. People used to be able to leave damn near anything out and they'd take it provided that it was already broken down into small enough chunks. After being tasked with chasing trash all over people's yards they now refuse to touch anything not in one of their bins. The nearby city has had to crack down on it too because they were completely shitting up many of the local parks. That isn't to say that everyone is like this, but it really truly only takes a handful to ruin everything for everyone else. *full disclaimer: I personally don't use the trash company because I move enough large objects and e-waste that I have to make routine runs to the local transfer station anyways, so I just bring my trash and recycling along too.

[QUOTE=plunger435;52708989]She was warned, she came back and did it, she was banned, she came back and did it. How many chances do you need to give someone who doesn't want to listen?[/QUOTE] I read the article. Did you read the rest of my post?

[QUOTE=Furioso;52709043]I read the article. Did you read the rest of my post?[/QUOTE] You seem to be making several pretty substantial allegations about her ability and willingness to be employed. Maybe it could have worked, but it's far from the catch all solution you seem to be implying.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;52709076]You seem to be making several pretty substantial allegations about her ability and willingness to be employed. Maybe it could have worked, but it's far from the catch all solution you seem to be implying.[/QUOTE] She seems willing to dig in trash cans to make pennies, so... ? Poverty and homelessness (and by extension, petty crime) are not solved by being utterly heavy handed in interpretation of the law. Would she have been a model employee? Maybe not. Could she have made a contribution to the station by helping to keep it clear? Maybe, maybe not. Was she given a chance? No, they told her to fuck off and not come back. Sounds like a real helpful society that cares about its people. Reminds me of home.

So lets say you're in HR. You see someone doing something on company property that your company doesn't want. They are told not to do that thing again. They continue doing it anyways... And your suggestion is to hire this person... who has already directly defied a reasonable and lawful request made by your company????? I'm sorry, but what the fuck?

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;52709359]So lets say you're in HR. You see someone doing something on company property that your company doesn't want. They are told not to do that thing again. They continue doing it anyways... And your suggestion is to hire this person... who has already directly defied a reasonable and lawful request made by your company????? I'm sorry, but what the fuck?[/QUOTE] Too much bureaucratic red tape and not enough humanity, tbh. People are capable of learning. People will become willing to change their behaviors if you show them a little compassion.

You seriously don't see the tremendous liability issue with picking up an employee like that? At the end of the day that's all that matters. An employee like that is a [i]huge[/i] risk. Let's not forget that you're talking about a potential janitor. It's not some niche job that nobody else can do. There is no reason for any company to ever take that risk over such a minor position in the hopes that something may possibly work out. [QUOTE=Furioso;52709416]People are capable of learning. People will become willing to change their behaviors if you show them a little compassion.[/QUOTE] By this logic we could reform every violent criminal and fraudster in the world. Do you really want to make that claim? Sure, she's unlikely to be Charles Manson 2.0, but there is [i]nothing[/i] to indicate that she's going to be a model employee. She's already been told not to do something, and then went and did it anyways.

now she'll have to collect 20 000 bottles to pay the fine. if she's smart she'll get a shopping cart and park it outside the station after office hours. lots of Germans tend to drink a few beers on the go when commuting in public transport, in Berlin this tactic is used a lot by pfandsammlers.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;52709507]You seriously don't see the tremendous liability issue with picking up an employee like that? At the end of the day that's all that matters. An employee like that is a [i]huge[/i] risk. Let's not forget that you're talking about a potential janitor. It's not some niche job that nobody else can do. There is no reason for any company to ever take that risk over such a minor position in the hopes that something may possibly work out. By this logic we could reform every violent criminal and fraudster in the world. Do you really want to make that claim? Sure, she's unlikely to be Charles Manson 2.0, but there is [i]nothing[/i] to indicate that she's going to be a model employee. She's already been told not to do something, and then went and did it anyways.[/QUOTE] Yeah, [I]reeeal[/I] liability issue with a janitorial position, of all positions. What a chance they'd be taking! If she were to fuck that up, then fire her. What is the problem? Why are you making the logical leap to compare her to violent criminals? It's not like she was told to not harass people or something serious like that, she was collecting bottles, [i]for fuck's sake[/i].

[QUOTE=Furioso;52709842]Yeah, [I]reeeal[/I] liability issue with a janitorial position, of all positions. What a chance they'd be taking! If she were to fuck that up, then fire her. What is the problem? Why are you making the logical leap to compare her to violent criminals? It's not like she was told to not harass people or something serious like that, she was collecting bottles, [i]for fuck's sake[/i].[/QUOTE] Youre showing an absolute lack of experience and understanding of being in the shoes of the potential employer here. I cant even begin to explain how stupid the prospect of hiring a disabled elderly woman who clearly refuses to listen to the most reasonable of requests is.

Pfand was a mistake, should have used that money to help elder disabled people so they dont have to search through trash. I was in Switzerland and they don't have any problems with empty bottles trashing up streets while not having that Pfand system.

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52710449]Pfand was a mistake, should have used that money to help elder disabled people so they dont have to search through trash. I was in Switzerland and they don't have any problems with empty bottles trashing up streets while not having that Pfand system.[/QUOTE] The solutions FAR FROM that easy regarding ensuring funds for pensioners, when the pensioners greatly outnumbers young people having a job. If anything then the "container value" needs to be increased so people wouldn't just throw in in the trash where it isn't sorted properly.

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;52710269]Youre showing an absolute lack of experience and understanding of being in the shoes of the potential employer here. I cant even begin to explain how stupid the prospect of hiring a disabled elderly woman who clearly refuses to listen to the most reasonable of requests is.[/QUOTE] Yeah, she's old and has hip problems, and that is a risk to the station. Fair enough. I suggested the potential of hiring her because employers have taken risks hiring questionable people when it was clear that they needed help. People arguably riskier than this lady have been hired for more sensitive positions - hiring felons, homeless people, etc. isn't unheard of. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but I think the attempts are in the right place at least. Maybe giving her a job wouldn't be the best solution for all involved, but I think it would have been better than this! Even a 200E fine would have been more reasonable than the 2000E they fined her. Now she'll just go on to potentially make a mess of other places so she can pay it off, and nothing will have changed for the better. Anyway, to be fair to everyone, after a second read the article seems so intentionally vague that she could either be a totally benevolent person that got strongarmed for no good reason or she could be a persistent cunt who didn't listen to people telling her to not leave trash everywhere before getting banned from the place and then getting arrested later. in conclusion, i may have gone too far in a few places, rip. In particular I was kind of a dick to Zephyrs. I'm sorry for that, Zephyrs.

That is absolutely ridiculous, but considering they told her off in the first place. Don't bite more than you can chew.

Nah, the Pfand system is a good thing ( and I wish they did the same with glasses and metal, then the streets and the parks would be really clean ). Is just that apparently here unless you had a really good job in the past your pension will be small, so many are "forced" to take minijobs or harvest all the bottles. Who gets elected today will have to deal with it ( or if Merkel stays, it will probably make it worse ).

Or... They could not fine as much