Church of Sweden to stop referring to God as 'he' or 'Lord' in favor of gender neutrality - Sensationalist Headlines

[quote]The Church of Sweden is urging its clergy to use gender-neutral language when referring to the supreme deity, refraining from using terms such as “Lord” and “he” in favour of the less specific “God.” The move is one of several taken by the national Evangelical Lutheran church in updating a 31-year-old handbook setting out how services should be conducted in terms of language, liturgy, hymns and other aspects. “Theologically, for instance, we know that God is beyond our gender determinations, God is not human,” Jackelén said. The change was met with criticism, however. Christer Pahlmblad, an associate theology professor at Sweden’s Lund University, told the Kristeligt Dagblad newspaper in Denmark that the move was “undermining the doctrine of the Trinity and the community with the other Christian churches”.[/quote] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/24/church-of-sweden-to-stop-referring-to-god-as-he-or-lord[/url]

Why would god even have a gender/sex to begin with? Isn't it just supposed to be some kind of alien entity that humanity can't even begin to comprehend in our current form? alas the burning bush and all

[QUOTE=Rixxz2;52920647]Why would god even have a gender/sex to begin with? Isn't it just supposed to be some kind of alien entity that humanity can't even begin to comprehend in our current form? alas the burning bush and all[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ is God and he was male. I think it's pretty much where it stems from, at least in Christianity. I don't know what the reasoning is in Islam or Judaism.

[QUOTE=Rixxz2;52920647]Why would god even have a gender/sex to begin with? Isn't it just supposed to be some kind of alien entity that humanity can't even begin to comprehend in our current form. alas the burning bush and all[/QUOTE] It could be many reasons to be honest. God has been depicted as a human man for what I can assume is many many years, his voice being described as a booming (I assume) male voice, God creating us in his own image. etc.

[QUOTE=Ax3l;52920656] God creating us in his own image.[/QUOTE] Even though he made Adam first, I'm pretty sure that line always meant in regards to mentality and thought, not physical form.

God created MAN in "His" own image, then derived woman from the rib of man, so I'd pretty safely assume that God would be male if anything.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52920659]Even though he made Adam first, I'm pretty sure that line always meant in regards to mentality and thought, not physical form.[/QUOTE] My fault. So many things have been lost in translation over the years.

[QUOTE=CunningHam;52920655] Even as a doubtful agnostic, it's really cool to see religion adapt to modern times by adopting more inclusive/deistic ideas.[/QUOTE] Personally I just roll my eyes every time they have to further water down thier religion or abstract it into meaninglessness just to survive for a couple more generations. That it has to "adapt" just makes a mockery of any claim of higher truth.

[QUOTE=Rixxz2;52920647]Why would god even have a gender/sex to begin with? Isn't it just supposed to be some kind of alien entity that humanity can't even begin to comprehend in our current form? alas the burning bush and all[/QUOTE] In the Old Testament, yes. Then the New Testament came along and retconned him to be the "Father in Heaven" of Jesus. He was still genderless in the literal sense, but he had a relationship with Jesus that resembled the father-son dynamic of old. This change of thinking was specifically so the early Christians could emphasize having a personal relationship with God the Father through Jesus. Ancient Jews were more about standing as far back as possible, cause, well, the Old Testament doesn't exactly paint yahweh as a very nice guy. The funniest part about the article in the OP is the guy complaining about the damage this decision will inflict on the Trinity. Trinitarian Theology may be the standard now, but it's an even later retcon - nearly 300 years after the historical Jesus was executed. They had arguments for centuries about whether God and Jesus existed at the same time, and whether the Holy Spirit was a third part of God or not. Then they all went to the Council of Nicea, majority ruled, and that was that.

This might seem crazy to people from other countries, but from what I've been told about the Church of Sweden, it's not really as religious as you'd think. If I remember correctly, a large majority of the country are members despite not being religious due to the benefits it provides. I really liked [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-kANR1vJkM]this documentary[/url] about the difference between American and Nordic churches.

[QUOTE=Rixxz2;52920647]Why would god even have a gender/sex to begin with? Isn't it just supposed to be some kind of alien entity that humanity can't even begin to comprehend in our current form? alas the burning bush and all[/QUOTE] the logic is that god is metaphorically "the father", not literally a male

[QUOTE=Mingebox;52920666]Personally I just roll my eyes every time they have to further water down thier religion or abstract it into meaninglessness just to survive for a couple more generations. That it has to "adapt" just makes a mockery of any claim of higher truth.[/QUOTE] That's how religions/cultures work, though. most christians 1000 years ago would've had different beliefs and morals than christians 100 years ago [editline]25th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Paramud;52920692]This might seem crazy to people from other countries, but from what I've been told about the Church of Sweden, it's not really as religious as you'd think. If I remember correctly, a large majority of the country are members despite not being religious due to the benefits it provides. I really liked [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-kANR1vJkM]this documentary[/url] about the difference between American and Nordic churches.[/QUOTE] Yep, I'm part of it despite not being religious in the slightest

I like the thought of God as a genderless orb.

[QUOTE=CunningHam;52920714]God just being the world and stuff is cool too[/QUOTE] god being literally everything, and thus everyone is something both christians and muslims have told me. It's an interesting thought

I've always thought of God as a kind of universal energy rather than a bearded dude. The laws of the universe kind of thing.

[QUOTE=Rixxz2;52920696]That's how religions/cultures work, though. most christians 1000 years ago would've had different beliefs and morals than christians 100 years ago [/QUOTE] Culture, perhaps, but religions generally don't "evolve" like that. The basic tenets of Christianity is the same now as they were 1000 years ago. Whether people follow them rightly, wrongly, or at all may change but the written rules of it have not been changed.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52920653]Jesus Christ is God and he was male. I think it's pretty much where it stems from, at least in Christianity. I don't know what the reasoning is in Islam or Judaism.[/QUOTE] Not all versions of Christianity follow the Trinity doctrine. Some treat Jesus as a prophet, others as the son of God but not God himself.

[QUOTE=ViralHatred;52920860]Not all versions of Christianity follow the Trinity doctrine. Some treat Jesus as a prophet, others as the son of God but not God himself.[/QUOTE] Mainstream Christianity is trinitarian. The concept of Jesus = God is pretty central to the entire faith and unitarian sects are by far not the majority. I personally would go so far as to not even consider some as actual Christianity.

[QUOTE=Rixxz2;52920647]Why would god even have a gender/sex to begin with? Isn't it just supposed to be some kind of alien entity that humanity can't even begin to comprehend in our current form? alas the burning bush and all[/QUOTE] Because he is gendered in the Bible as a male. As is his son, Jesus Christ. The muslim God is similarly gendered, as is his prophet. Most religions were created back when there truly was a patriarchy, that men truly were considered superior by society, so it's a logical step that they'd gender deities as such. And at this point, there's no real point in trying to remove that for the sake of modern PC culture. God is a dude. Has been for thousands of years, is referred to with masculine descriptors in every bible verse that he's mentioned in. Personally, I couldn't give less of a fuck. I may have been raised Baptist Christian but I lost my faith when I was in my early teens and never looked back. But I find it silly that they're trying to go 'God is genderless!' when he's gendered in nearly every single mention within the scripture.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52920659]Even though he made Adam first, I'm pretty sure that line always meant in regards to mentality and thought, not physical form.[/QUOTE] how dare you bring metaphysics into this! the bible is very explicit in that it took 6 days to make everything, 40 days and 40 nights to flood the earth, and adam was the litteral non-divine reflection of God! (just bringing up the fact that quite a lot of people who would be offended by this take the bible litterally)

Seems like this may have been a knee-jerk reaction. [url]https://www.thelocal.se/20171124/no-the-swedish-church-has-not-banned-the-male-pronoun-god[/url] [url=https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-local-norway/]MB/FC only has a page for the Norwegian edition of The Local[/url], so I'm not sure how reliable it is as a source.

I'm not religious and I think this is pretty stupid. You have your holy book and you're going to change it on a whim to make it more feel-good? There's lots of things that you can change to make it more inclusive. For instance Jesus could be a black transgender lesbian woman. I mean why not? And it's not like I don't want them to change it. Do what you want with it if it makes you feel better. It's probably a good thing. But then, what's the point of even having the holy book. [QUOTE=Orkel;52920750]I've always thought of God as a kind of universal energy rather than a bearded dude. The laws of the universe kind of thing.[/QUOTE] If God is identical to something that already exist say laws of the universe why put God in that thing? The concept of universe God is meaningless. There's no difference between the universe God and the universe without God, no?

Does that make god "hen" now? It does make sense imo. The concept of god is supposed to be of a benevolent ruler, one who transcends the concept of man and woman. To my understanding Sweden isn't a terribly religious country in the first place, and honestly it makes sense to refer to a deity as a gender neutral. If you think about it, what use does a god have for a gender?

who honestly believes in such nonsense in todays society anyway?

[QUOTE=Mingebox;52920666]Personally I just roll my eyes every time they have to further water down thier religion or abstract it into meaninglessness just to survive for a couple more generations. That it has to "adapt" just makes a mockery of any claim of higher truth.[/QUOTE] Don't really get what's wrong with religions changing. If they didn't then people would still be following those weird sins from way back when.

I like the idea of God being the universe itself as an incomprehensibly massive living organism. I mean, from what i remember reading about one time, the Bible had some kind of weird undertones of cosmic horror with how the angels are described. [editline]25th November 2017[/editline] Imagine if next to Jesus on the cross they had that one angel who's just a horrifying intersecting 4D chariot wheel with dozens of eyes on the rim thats perpetually on fire.

[QUOTE=freaka;52921050]who honestly believes in such nonsense in todays society anyway?[/QUOTE] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/zKczS3f.gif[/IMG] sorry 4 may-may gif i get that the church is separate from the state but i think sweden should worry more about like the increase in migrant sexual assaults rather than being more and i hate saying this word "politically correct" but if the shoe fits. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("not a very good 64th post LMAO" - Kiwi))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=freaka;52921050]who honestly believes in such nonsense in todays society anyway?[/QUOTE] The vast majority of the world's population. [QUOTE=Mingebox;52920666]Personally I just roll my eyes every time they have to further water down thier religion or abstract it into meaninglessness just to survive for a couple more generations. That it has to "adapt" just makes a mockery of any claim of higher truth.[/QUOTE] People have been saying "Religion only has a generation left" since the 19th century. This generation is no different. As for what God is referred to, coming from my knowledge as a Muslim and native a Arabic speaker, God is referred to in the Quran with the Hu or Huwa pronouns, which most of the time are male, but they can also be used neutrally. Same with the feminine pronouns.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;52921056]I like the idea of God being the universe itself as an incomprehensibly massive living organism. I mean, from what i remember reading about one time, the Bible had some kind of weird undertones of cosmic horror with how the angels are described. [editline]25th November 2017[/editline] Imagine if next to Jesus on the cross they had that one angel who's just a horrifying intersecting 4D chariot wheel with dozens of eyes on the rim thats perpetually on fire.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, angel descriptions are fascinating. Seraphs for instance in popular culture are benevolent feathery messengers of light, sometimes even cute. Their original descriptions were less cute. Skyscraper size, 3-4 faces, only one of which was even recognizable as human-like. Able to assume a form of pure fire not like normal flame in that if it touches you you simply cease to exist, and to have ever existed, as in you are unremembered by time. Their radiance was also one of the only things explicitly stated to be able to [i]kill other angels[/i] which isn't something normally talked about with supposedly perfect beings. There's a reason there's a passage saying that the angels descended and people were "terrified" and that the first greeting of an angel meeting a human was always supposed to be "fear not."

[QUOTE=DarklytheGreat;52920663]God created MAN in "His" own image, then derived woman from the rib of man, so I'd pretty safely assume that God would be male if anything.[/QUOTE] I always liked that part of Abrahamic creation myth. God basically didn't think this through: made every creature have a pair, while his ultimate creation was running around with blue balls for a while.