Lower Saxony set to ban Islamic face veils in schools - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE]The case of a Muslim pupil refusing to remove her niqab triggered debate in Lower Saxony. Now a new law may mean that full-face Islamic veils will no longer be allowed in state schools. The state of Lower Saxony is expected to announce a ban on face veils such as burqas and niqabs in schools in August, following a unanimous decision by the state parliament on Thursday to amend current education policies, reports the Branschweiger Zeitung. A niqab covers the whole body except for a slit for the eyes, whereas a burqa fully covers the body including the eyes. The state's school board also plans on publishing regulations for the practical handling of the ban. Some parent and and school group representatives at a state parliament meeting rejected the ban, including Birhat Kaçar, chair of Lower Saxony's pupils' council, who said the policy would not solve the problems that come with dealing with fully-veiled pupils. Kaçar argued that issues involving religious attire should be dealt with by the schools themselves.[/QUOTE] Source: [url]https://www.thelocal.de/20170804/lower-saxony-set-to-ban-islamic-face-veils-in-schools[/url] (I can't find the news icon for some reason so I just chose a random one)

That's good. Leaving this to the schools would be extremely messy as the article points out. I also think that banning face coverings is a reasonable limit to set in public facilities/in school, since at that point (religious) customs start interfering with identification. It's probably not as much of a direct issue in school, but it's very much required for effective participation in politics (face coverings are banned at protests) and general self-determined living (pretty sure you can't enter a lot of e.g. banks while covered up) in this place.

Hijab is just about tolerable, but the niqab and burqa? Come on, we expect to look each other in the eyes and see eachother's facial expressions otherwise you might as well be talking to a wall. It's weird enough talking to someone who won't take off their sunglasses, or helmet. Understandable then why it was banned.

Don't see anything wrong with this.

Honestly Muslim requirements for women to cover up are absurd, and this kind of pushback is well warranted. Nowhere in the Quran does it say women must wear burqas. The closest it gets is to say Women must dress modestly. The cultural requirements for Muslim women have gone beyond requiring modest dress straight into the realm of dehumanizing.

The niqab and burqa are definitely not seen in the Qu'ran. Even Prophet Muhammad states, [QUOTE]"O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except for this and this; the hands and the face."[/QUOTE] within Hadith. The hijab, however, has sort of become more of a fashion statement in regards to the West. A lot more families are more open to becoming more... open, I guess? It's usually up to the women themselves to choose after they leave the home.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;52546242]Honestly Muslim requirements for women to cover up are absurd, and this kind of pushback is well warranted.[B] Nowhere in the Quran does it say women must wear burqas.[/B] The closest it gets is to say Women must dress modestly. The cultural requirements for Muslim women have gone beyond requiring modest dress straight into the realm of dehumanizing.[/QUOTE] Are you sure about that bolded statement? A quick search on IslamQA.info yielded [Quote=IslamQA](i) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful” [al-Noor 24:31] [B][B] The evidence from this verse that hijab is obligatory for women is as follows: [/B][/B] (a) Allaah commands the believing women to guard their chastity, and the command to guard their chastity also a command to follow all the means of doing that. No rational person would doubt that one of the means of doing so is covering the face, because uncovering it causes people to look at it and enjoy its beauty, and thence to initiate contact. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The eyes commit zina and their zina is by looking…” then he said, “… and the private part confirms that or denies it.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6612; Muslim, 2657. If covering the face is one of the means of guarding one’s chastity, then it is enjoined, because the means come under the same ruling as the ends. (b) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “…and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) …”. The jayb (pl. juyoob) is the neck opening of a garment and the khimaar (veil) is that with which a woman covers her head. If a woman is commanded to draw her veil over the neck opening of her garment then she is commanded to cover her face, either because that is implied or by analogy. If it is obligatory to cover the throat and chest, then it is more appropriate to cover the face because it is the site of beauty and attraction. (c) Allaah has forbidden showing all adornment except that which is apparent, which is that which one cannot help showing, such as the outside of one's garment. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “…except only that which is apparent …” and He did not say, except that which they show of it. Some of the salaf, such as Ibn Mas’ood, al-Hasan, Ibn Sireen and others interpreted the phrase “except only that which is apparent” as meaning the outer garment and clothes, and what shows from beneath the outer garment (i.e., the hem of one’s dress etc.). Then He again forbids showing one’s adornment except to those for whom He makes an exception. This indicates that the second adornment mentioned is something other than the first adornment. The first adornment is the external adornment which appears to everyone and cannot be hidden. The second adornment is the inward adornment (including the face). If it were permissible for this adornment to be seen by everyone, there would be no point to the general wording in the first instance and this exception made in the second. (d) Allaah grants a concession allowing a woman to show her inward adornments to “old male servants who lack vigour”, i.e. servants who are men who have no desire, and to small children who have not reached the age of desire and have not seen the ‘awrahs of women. This indicates two things: 1 – That showing inward adornments to non-mahrams is not permissible except to these two types of people. 2 – That the reason for this ruling is the fear that men may be tempted by the woman and fall in love with her. Undoubtedly the face is the site of beauty and attraction, so concealing it is obligatory lest men who do feel desire be attracted and tempted by her. (e) The words (interpretation of the meaning): “And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment” mean that a woman should not stamp her feet so as to make known hidden adornments such as anklets and the like. If a woman is forbidden to stamp her feet lest men be tempted by what they hear of the sound of her anklets etc., then what about uncovering the face? Which is the greater source of temptation – a man hearing the anklets of a woman whom he does not know who she is or whether she is beautiful, or whether she is young or old, or ugly or pretty? Or his looking at a beautiful youthful face that attracts him and invites him to look at it? Every man who has any desire for women will know which of the two temptations is greater and which deserves to be hidden and concealed. [/Quote] ([URL="https://islamqa.info/en/11774"]Source[/URL]) While the words "Niqab" or "Burqa" may not explicitly be used, it is evident that they are the means of fulfilling what is written in al-Noor 24:31. This is only one of 10 points made by the person answering the question. It is clear that the 'Dehumanizing" part of the Islamic discussion is Islam itself as the religious text teaches such strict adherence to laws that oppressively restrict women.

Y'all don't think there might be a problem with governments banning religious garb, particularly in the current climate of rampant Islamophobia? Even if it is just in schools, this sets a pretty concerning precedent, especially with governments and parties elsewhere pushing to ban Islamic garb completely.

[QUOTE=Cyanlime;52550277]Y'all don't think there might be a problem with governments banning religious garb, particularly in the current climate of rampant Islamophobia? Even if it is just in schools, this sets a pretty concerning precedent, especially with governments and parties elsewhere pushing to ban Islamic garb completely.[/QUOTE] Hijab is still allowed, and hijab is fine. Niqab and Burqa is utter shit, you wouldn't let students walk around in ski masks would you?

[QUOTE=Cyanlime;52550277]Y'all don't think there might be a problem with governments banning religious garb, particularly in the current climate of rampant Islamophobia? Even if it is just in schools, this sets a pretty concerning precedent, especially with governments and parties elsewhere pushing to ban Islamic garb completely.[/QUOTE] I understand your concern for islamophobia, but you're letting it get in the way of practicality.

[QUOTE]The Federation of Turkish Parent Groups in Lower Saxony also supported the ban, with chair Seyhan Öztürk saying that full-body veils hinder students' ability to fully participate during lessons.[/QUOTE] this is pretty much the biggest reason I agree on this ban but I wish it was worded more neutrally, towards [I]any[/I] face-covering article.

[QUOTE=Cyanlime;52550277]Y'all don't think there might be a problem with governments banning religious garb, particularly in the current climate of rampant Islamophobia? Even if it is just in schools, this sets a pretty concerning precedent, especially with governments and parties elsewhere pushing to ban Islamic garb completely.[/QUOTE] Y'all don't think there might be a problem in letting a person enter a school disguised and masked? I'm all for modesty but a ski mask hides your face less than a Niqab.

[QUOTE=Timof2009;52547730]Are you sure about that bolded statement? A quick search on IslamQA.info yielded ([URL="https://islamqa.info/en/11774"]Source[/URL]) While the words "Niqab" or "Burqa" may not explicitly be used, it is evident that they are the means of fulfilling what is written in al-Noor 24:31. This is only one of 10 points made by the person answering the question. It is clear that the 'Dehumanizing" part of the Islamic discussion is Islam itself as the religious text teaches such strict adherence to laws that oppressively restrict women.[/QUOTE] Ehhhhhhh it's good and all that you can google shifty islamic websites that muslims don't actually visit because they're too busy being on instagram/facebook like the rest of us, but over here niqabs aren't considered a -religious- obligation but more of a tradition that's been adopted from the saudis. A lot of my muslim relatives think that wearing a niqab is ridiculous since it's not actually -required- by the religion. A hijab is actually enough to fulfill that "covering up" aspect of islam.

[QUOTE=Rainboo;52550752]Ehhhhhhh it's good and all that you can google shifty islamic websites that muslims don't actually visit because they're too busy being on instagram/facebook like the rest of us, but over here niqabs aren't considered a -religious- obligation but more of a tradition that's been adopted from the saudis. A lot of my muslim relatives think that wearing a niqab is ridiculous since it's not actually -required- by the religion. A hijab is actually enough to fulfill that "covering up" aspect of islam.[/QUOTE] According to Pew Research Center (Conducted 2010) ([URL="http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/31/worlds-muslim-population-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/"]Source[/URL]) [IMG]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/01/31122225/FT_17.01.31whereMuslimsLive.png[/IMG] and according to U.S Dept. in 2013 ( [URL="https://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2013/eap/222161.htm"]Source[/URL] ) the Philippines (Your Country) has about 10 million Muslims. Now if these sources aren't too shifty for you, Id say that based on Pew's info there is a total of 1,599,700,000 or about 1.6 Billion muslim people in the world. Basic math tells me that your country represents only .6% of the entire Muslim population. Anecdotal evidence is nice for a high school language class but please back up your claims with scripture or facts. That being said if you aren't gonna engage your brain long enough to give an actual contribution to the conversation, please don't even reply.

You don't live in a free country if the government forces you to have your face uncovered. Honestly just wear what you want, why should anyone give a shit if you wear a dress from head to toe.

[QUOTE=ultra_bright;52552702]You don't live in a free country if the government forces you to have your face uncovered. Honestly just wear what you want, why should anyone give a shit if you wear a dress from head to toe.[/QUOTE] Not sure if serious You don't see a problem with people covering their faces? Why do criminals often cover their faces?

[QUOTE=Timof2009;52551634]According to Pew Research Center (Conducted 2010) ([URL="http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/31/worlds-muslim-population-more-widespread-than-you-might-think/"]Source[/URL]) [IMG]http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/01/31122225/FT_17.01.31whereMuslimsLive.png[/IMG] and according to U.S Dept. in 2013 ( [URL="https://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2013/eap/222161.htm"]Source[/URL] ) the Philippines (Your Country) has about 10 million Muslims. Now if these sources aren't too shifty for you, Id say that based on Pew's info there is a total of 1,599,700,000 or about 1.6 Billion muslim people in the world. Basic math tells me that your country represents only .6% of the entire Muslim population. Anecdotal evidence is nice for a high school language class but please back up your claims with scripture or facts. That being said if you aren't gonna engage your brain long enough to give an actual contribution to the conversation, please don't even reply.[/QUOTE] man you sound like a dick, you should learn to respond to sensible posts without sounding like a complete cunt. btw [quote]"O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except for this and this; the hands and the face"[/quote] -Muhammad There's different interpretations regarding religious dress and the extent of it in Islam. Even the most ultra religious shithole (Saudi Arabia) doesn't force women to cover their face by law, only their body and hair.