I don't play League, mind you, so I don't really have any thoughtful insights as to Zyra herself, but it's kinda nice to see a designer talking about a character in a down to earth sort of way. You don't often see designers actually going into any detail with their characters, the most you often see is what you can glean from patch notes like:
"Oh they nerfed her damage, they must have thought she was too burst heavy." or "Oh they buffed the cooldown of this spell, they must want me to use it more." It's kinda nice to see someone just sit down and say look, these are the problems, I've figured them out, and what I view as a designer is this.
But this quote in particular is awesome to me: "It's easy to feel like a champion is a generalist when they are just an overtuned specialist. Zyra is a good example of this."
This is so true to me, when a character seems to excel to an absurd degree in a certain role, it's easy to try and branch out (plant pun arhar) and think you should be dominating doing something else. I've just never heard it put quite that way and I really like it.
I had that problem with Witch Doctor in DoTA 2, I was always getting too cocky with my damage dealing capabilities, and making stupid mistakes, feeling like that dive should have worked, what am I doing wrong? Until I caught myself and realized well duh, he isn't supposed to be played this way, I just got so comfortable with my abilities as being behind my team, trying to help their sustain, and supplementing their damage that I was like "Yeah I could totally roam and assassinate dudes now." No you can't you dummy, you were doing well because you were working in your role. I dunno why, I guess the quote just really struck a note for me because of that.
I just like behind the scenes style commentary on what the designers are ACTUALLY THINKING with their designs a lot, rather than trying to extrapolate the intended character behind your favorites to play I suppose, no matter the game.
I think Zyra is good, but hard to play as mid laner she was designed for.
Most people and pro players use her as support because of the utility she brings.
Several characters need revision. If I were them, I was going to be doing those once a week or they're never going to get done with it.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43519942]Several characters need revision. If I were them, I was going to be doing those once a week or they're never going to get done with it.[/QUOTE]
indeed, The meta allways ends up being the newest releases.
Like jayce, he has everything a character needs, gap closer, knockbacks, massive burst range, melee dot, speed gate for friendlies
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43519942]Several characters need revision. If I were them, I was going to be doing those once a week or they're never going to get done with it.[/QUOTE]
And they're getting through them at a decent pace.
I feel the whole "you're dead, but you get one last shot" aspect of this character needs work. I'm not saying it should be like a one hit kill or anything, but it seems kind of crappy that you get killed and get to fire off a piddle shot that really only makes a difference on someone else who has like no health left. This is based on watching my brother play this as as I have said I don't play League. Maybe turn it into like an AOE pollen explosion that slows or something. Not something that people suicide to pull off because its so powerful, anything other than the apparent pea shot this character gets.
[QUOTE=Zeb Brown;43520001]And they're getting through them at a decent pace.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, yeah very decent. That's why there's characters stuck on season 1.
[QUOTE=Lazore;43519975]indeed, The meta allways ends up being the newest releases.
Like jayce, he has everything a character needs, gap closer, knockbacks, massive burst range, melee dot, speed gate for friendlies[/QUOTE]
Not sure if I'd call Jayce "new" any more and he's not at all a popular champion in the current meta anyway.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43520068]Oh wow, yeah very decent. That's why there's characters stuck on season 1.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you realize how much time it takes to tune a champion with a pool of over 100, especially with an ever changing meta.
[QUOTE=Novangel;43520174]I don't think you realize how much time it takes to tune a champion with a pool of over 100, especially with an ever changing meta.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't take much time at all. Most skill types already have standard values and there's a PTR for the players to provide feedback. Besides I'm talking 1 champion a week to deploy them all in a big patch when the newest champion get released.
I mean they took their sweet time to "tune" Karma and they manage to screw up. Even with player feedback and internal testing.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43519942]Several characters need revision. If I were them, I was going to be doing those once a week or they're never going to get done with it.[/QUOTE]
The problem is the last time I played League, and mind you this is well over three years ago now, "revision" of a hero meant that they were just going to change their numbers heavily. They never fully changed someones abilities to actually try to make them more effective at the role they were suppose to play.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43520250]It doesn't take much time at all. Most skill types already have standard values and there's a PTR for the players to provide feedback. Besides I'm talking 1 champion a week to deploy them all in a big patch when the newest champion get released.
I mean they took their sweet time to "tune" Karma and they manage to screw up. Even with player feedback and internal testing.[/QUOTE]
It's gonna take a long time because even though they can come up with the spells and test them out quickly, they have to make new visuals to get rid of the old visuals and make new visuals to match the new spells, and then because some characters are old and horrible to look at...well, yeah. They have to make new models and animations and whatnot. And then they have to remake all those skins too.
They've released reworks at weird, slow pace. But they're quicker about it now than they were say...3 years ago. There's still a LOT on the visual and mechanics side they need to work on, though.
Some league heroes are like old and removed dota 1 heroes, imbalanced, poorly thought out and badly designed and implemented.
Good old Guinsoo, eh?
Although this one isn't made by him, it's something he'd make.
[QUOTE=darkzero226;43520312]It's gonna take a long time because even though they can come up with the spells and test them out quickly, they have to make new visuals to get rid of the old visuals and make new visuals to match the new spells, and then because some characters are old and horrible to look at...well, yeah. They have to make new models and animations and whatnot. And then they have to remake all those skins too.
They've released reworks at weird, slow pace. But they're quicker about it now than they were say...3 years ago. There's still a LOT on the visual and mechanics side they need to work on, though.[/QUOTE]
Visual updates are good and all, but they're done by different teams. They should have a team just to work the math, design skills and balance the game.
Besides, gameplay changes always win over aesthetics changes.
[QUOTE=Coffee;43520367]Some league heroes are like old and removed dota 1 heroes, imbalanced, poorly thought out and badly designed and implemented.
Good old Guinsoo, eh?
Although this one isn't made by him, it's something he'd make.[/QUOTE]
The champions he designed were just fucking OP in beta. TFs teleport wasn't even his ult. His ult was just revealing enemies.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43520401]Visual updates are good and all, but they're done by different teams. They should have a team just to work the math, design skills and balance the game.
Besides, gameplay changes always win over aesthetics changes.[/quote]
agreed. i actually found it strange that they didn't update heimerdinger's visuals to the extent they've done in the past with the other reworks.
[quote]The champions he designed were just fucking OP in beta. TFs teleport wasn't even his ult. His ult was just revealing enemies.[/QUOTE]
it seems as though guinsoo doesn't even work at riot anymore. the last thing he was doing was the karma rework, which got scrapped because he was taking way too long with it.
[QUOTE=darkzero226;43521257]agreed. i actually found it strange that they didn't update heimerdinger's visuals to the extent they've done in the past with the other reworks.
it seems as though guinsoo doesn't even work at riot anymore. the last thing he was doing was the karma rework, which got scrapped because he was taking way too long with it.[/QUOTE]
He only got involved in LoL because Pendragon didn't really liked IceFrog. It's amusing how he went to Riot to help them develop their own "dota-like", but denounced IceFrog for contating Devs with a proposal to make Dota a stand alone game.
Why aren't we arguing about whether Dota 2 is better than LoL or not? Shouldn't we be? I feel like this thread is lacking in the kind of pointless volatility that I usually expect from any mention of a MOBA.
[QUOTE=ToXiCsoldier;43519752]I think Zyra is good, but hard to play as mid laner she was designed for.
Most people and pro players use her as support because of the utility she brings.[/QUOTE]
I assume it's much like Dota 2 in that regard.
When a new hero is released, the very first thing people do is try him/her at mid, no matter what.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43522680]Why aren't we arguing about whether Dota 2 is better than LoL or not? Shouldn't we be? I feel like this thread is lacking in the kind of pointless volatility that I usually expect from any mention of a MOBA.[/QUOTE]
Second Life is better than any MOBA
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;43522738]I assume it's much like Dota 2 in that regard.
When a new hero is released, the very first thing people do is try him/her at mid, no matter what.[/QUOTE]
not really???
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;43522680]Why aren't we arguing about whether Dota 2 is better than LoL or not? Shouldn't we be? I feel like this thread is lacking in the kind of pointless volatility that I usually expect from any mention of a MOBA.[/QUOTE]
People like you are exactly the people who need to never touch MOBAs.
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