• Israel lobby - AIPAC chief: Obama should NOT be even-handed toward Israel and Palestinians
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[URL]http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/aipac-chief-obama-should-not-be-even-handed-toward-israel-and-palestinians-1.363579[/URL] [release] AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr said Monday that U.S. President Barack Obama should not take an even-handed approach to the Middle East conflict, as it puts Israel at a disadvantage. “Part of being an honest broker is being honest," Kohr said in an address to AIPAC, a day after Obama spoke to the pro-Israel lobby and clarified his remarks regarding his vision for a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, adding "that honesty "should not be confused with even-handedness". [IMG]http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.363458.1306111709!/image/1217990449.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_295/1217990449.jpg[/IMG] [I]U.S. President Barack Obama arriving at the AIPAC Conference dais for his keynote address on May 22, 2011.[/I] "In a world which is demonstrably on the side of the Palestinians and Arabs - where Israel stands virtually alone - the United States has a special role to play," said the AIPAC director. "When the United States is even-handed, Israel is automatically at a disadvantage, tilting the diplomatic playing field overwhelmingly toward the Palestinians and Arabs." The AIPAC leader also said that no settlement imposed on the Palestinians or on Israel could succeed. “When neither party owns the plan or has responsibility to accept it, that plan is doomed to fail," he added. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bluntly rejected Obama's declared support Thursday for the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, in what appeared to open a deep divide between the United States and Israel. On Monday, Kohr urged Jerusalem and Washington to work out their differences privately, warning that any public display of a diplomatic crisis would serve as fodder for Israel's enemies. “If Israel's foes come to believe that there is diplomatic daylight between the United States and Israel, they will have every incentive to try to exploit those differences and shun peace with the Jewish state," warned the AIPAC director. He also said that Netanyahu was "ready and willing" to negotiate for peace with the Palestinians, but that it was up to the other side to make a positive step forward. “There is still time for a Palestinian leader to be bold and creative: to turn back from the current dead end; to reject Hamas; to reject the international path; to reject the road to unilateral recognition at the United Nations and instead to embrace the chance to sit down with Israel to negotiate a real peace," said Kohr. "To say to those who profess to stand for peace: There can be no end to strife for the Palestinian people unless their leaders pursue a partnership in peace with Israel," he added.[/release]"[B]Justice will put Israel at a disadvantage[/B]" Normally I wouldn’t care and disregard the ‘request’ as frivolous, however, AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in Washington -- the mightiest senators and congressmen live in terror of their disapproval. Their decision on who to support will be a key factor in the coming presidential elections. To put it blunt, if AIPAC is against you, you’ll likely to never become president. This is the reason for Obama pandering and backpedalling at AIPAC a few days ago when he got controversy for “betraying Israel!” when he suggested Israel to revert to the 1967 borders. This isn’t even unreasonable; the Six Day war was started by Israel and conquered more Arab land as a result. Don’t confuse this with the 1948 and the 1973 war which was started by the Arabs. However, as much as understandable it is for Obama to backpedal (he wants to save his ass and secure his re-election) it was unnecessary. [B]The call for pre-1967 borders is a long-standing policy for the Democrats and the Republicans[/B]. Even Bush himself called for pre-1967 borders: [media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=6W73v4p6Yyg[/media] Which further exhibits Republican hypocrisy; anyone remember Republicans screaming “Bush betrayed Israel” or "threw Israel under the bus" or something similar? Nope.
It's good that Obama makes a proper statement, hell did Bush really said that? Perhaps he actually had a brain.
[QUOTE=Brage Nyman;30021430]It's good that Obama makes a proper statement, hell did Bush really said that? Perhaps he actually had a brain.[/QUOTE] He was a really shitty president, but he did know some things.
the more i think about it the more i disagree with the 1967 borders i mean israel has a valid complaint that having a strip of land thats about 12 miles wide puts them at a disadvantage we should find a new way to do it that pleases(or is at least agreeable) both sides i mean thats what being even-handed is right? why should we ignore israels complaints? we should be working on an actual compromise
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30021475]the more i think about it the more i disagree with the 1967 borders i mean israel has a valid complaint that having a strip of land thats about 12 miles wide puts them at a disadvantage we should find a new way to do it that pleases(or is at least agreeable) both sides i mean thats what being even-handed is right? why should we ignore israels complaints? we should be working on an actual compromise[/QUOTE] puts ISRAEL at a disadvantage? Have you looked at a map of Palestine? [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] Or what's left of it.
[QUOTE=amute;30021687]puts ISRAEL at a disadvantage? Have you looked at a map of Palestine? [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] Or what's left of it.[/QUOTE] i never said anything about palestine because its generally agreed that they are in a shit position but instead of just getting mad and working in spite of israel, we should be pushing for an actual compromise that can get the ball rolling i mean israel is bad but it isnt that helpful to the jewish people to punish them, and it really isnt helpful to the palestinians if it incites more violence and bullshit towards them [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] im sorry the israeli people
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30021475]the more i think about it the more i disagree with the 1967 borders i mean israel has a valid complaint that having a strip of land thats about 12 miles wide puts them at a disadvantage we should find a new way to do it that pleases(or is at least agreeable) both sides i mean thats what being even-handed is right? why should we ignore israels complaints? we should be working on an actual compromise[/QUOTE] Frankly something just needs to be done about the fact that Palestine holds multiple spots of land that aren't connected in any way.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;30021719]Frankly something just needs to be done about the fact that Palestine holds multiple spots of land that aren't connected in any way.[/QUOTE] we should solve that first, then start negotiations for a more permanent solution that both sides will agree to then enforce the borders as much as we can when israel and palestine start fighting again(which is prolly whats gonna happen)
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30021743]we should solve that first, then start negotiations for a more permanent solution that both sides will agree to then enforce the borders as much as we can when israel and palestine start fighting again(which is prolly whats gonna happen)[/QUOTE] I think that sounds fair, maybe have the UN put together some international peacekeeping force to make sure nothing goes wrong, to be fair maybe put a certain percentage of varied nationality soldiers, I don't know.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;30021888]I think that sounds fair, maybe have the UN put together some international peacekeeping force to make sure nothing goes wrong, to be fair maybe put a certain percentage of varied nationality soldiers, I don't know.[/QUOTE] we just need to make sure these guys stop persecuting each other i mean the hebrew people are already settled there, they deserve their land as much as the palestinians and the palestinians have a right to govern themselves as well, without persecution from israel its fucking heartbreaking whats going on in that region because its a cycle of hate that both sides perpetuate to keep conflict going it was a huge mistake to give that land to israel in the first place
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30021912]it was a huge mistake to give that land to israel in the first place[/QUOTE] then the situation would've just been the otherway around. what was a viable alternative?
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30021949]then the situation would've just been the otherway around. what was a viable alternative?[/QUOTE] not creating the nation of israel in the first place or at least not placing it there one of the ideas was placing it in (iirc) utah or somewhere else in the southwest usa i think a lot less blood would have been shed if we did something like that
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30021949]then the situation would've just been the otherway around. what was a viable alternative?[/QUOTE] Not give them the land?
in fact i think the whole reason we placed israel in palestine was because of some stupid comment made by the british foreign minister everyone took to seriously and began pushing for if he hadnt said that israel would be created ther we might not be having all these problems today
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30021962]not creating the nation of israel in the first place[/QUOTE] but the land would've become who's after the british left?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;30021386]"[B]Justice will put Israel at a disadvantage[/B]"[/quote]It's a stupid thing to say really. I think the point is more from numbers though than from justice, if the US abstains then there's only really Arab countries and Israel in it. Stupid thing to argue, but it's not about justice. [quote]Normally I wouldn’t care and disregard the ‘request’ as frivolous, however, AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in Washington -- the mightiest senators and congressmen live in terror of their disapproval. Their decision on who to support will be a key factor in the coming presidential elections. To put it blunt, if AIPAC is against you, you’ll likely to never become president.[/quote] What, you think they're the only lobby in town? They don't need to buy everyone in congress when most people don't give a fuck. They use cash to swing things their way but there's only like a few people who are outspoken critics and no-one else cares. Congress doesn't even deal with these issues and the only reason it comes up is political shitflinging. [quote]This is the reason for Obama pandering and backpedalling at AIPAC a few days ago when he got controversy for “betraying Israel!” when he suggested Israel to revert to the 1967 borders. This isn’t even unreasonable; the Six Day war was started by Israel and conquered more Arab land as a result. Don’t confuse this with the 1948 and the 1973 war which was started by the Arabs.[/quote] You seem so sure in your conclusions that it wasn't a pre-emptive strike. I'm sure you'll just read the bits that adhere to your view but it's still worth noting that not everyone is in agreement. We could argue that just as easily if you wanted. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_relating_to_the_Six-Day_War[/url] [quote]However, as much as understandable it is for Obama to backpedal (he wants to save his ass and secure his re-election) it was unnecessary. [B]The call for pre-1967 borders is a long-standing policy for the Democrats and the Republicans[/B]. Even Bush himself called for pre-1967 borders: [media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=6W73v4p6Yyg[/media] Which further exhibits Republican hypocrisy; anyone remember Republicans screaming “Bush betrayed Israel” or "threw Israel under the bus" or something similar? Nope.[/QUOTE] Two words, :foxnews:. Yeah, they don't give a fuck. It's all a game and another reason why AIPAC having congressmen in their pocket means nothing because their partisan bullshit games drown out any noise they may make.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30021997]but the land would've become who's after the british left?[/QUOTE] the palestinians the people who originally lived in the land before they were forced out
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30022033]the people who originally lived in the land before they were forced out[/QUOTE] hmmm, really? [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] not worth an argument.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30022033]the palestinians the people who originally lived in the land before they were forced out[/QUOTE] Plenty of Jews lived there too. Ones that were previously living there and refugees. It wasn't exclusive to the Palestinians and when it became apparent that neither side wanted a joint government, a two nation solution was the only option. Either that or intentionally put one side in power over the other instead of it happening accidentally, they'd probably try for secession anyway ala Sudan.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;30022046]hmmm, really? [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] not worth an argument.[/QUOTE] dont pull that bullshit on me doggunn i thought we were bros i even made us matching shirts that said bros 4 lyfe with our names on it :frown:
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30022033]the palestinians the people who originally lived in the land before they were forced out[/QUOTE] :tinfoil: I mean come on it's comments like this that breaks me down, Israel is not crazy baby bombing demons that spawned from hell. There even a lot of realistic causes and logic even behind today's criticized borders. But the massive bangwagon hate Israel is just stupid. Should Israel be criticized? Sure.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;30022062]Plenty of Jews lived there too. Ones that were previously living there and refugees. It wasn't exclusive to the Palestinians and when it became apparent that neither side wanted a joint government, a two nation solution was the only option. Either that or intentionally put one side in power over the other instead of it happening accidentally, they'd probably try for secession anyway ala Sudan.[/QUOTE] about 20% of the population was jewish iirc not a whole lot compared to the world jewish population and the terms for creating the country caused a huge migration of jewish people that ended up pushing the natives out of their land why not create it somewhere else where they wouldnt have these problems did no one foresee moving a group of people into a part of the world where the other people already dont like them that much causing any troubles down the line [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Brage Nyman;30022082]:tinfoil: I mean common it's comments like this that breaks me down, Israel is not crazy baby bombing demons that spawned from hell. There even a lot of realistic causes and logic even behind today's criticized borders. But the massive bangwagon hate Israel is just stupid. Should Israel be criticized? Sure.[/QUOTE] im not really criticizing israel for that its sorta britain and the uns fault for that one i dont hate israel, but they are being major dicks right now and doing nothing that will help end the violence in the region
[QUOTE=yawmwen;30022087]about 20% of the population was jewish iirc not a whole lot compared to the world jewish population and the terms for creating the country caused a huge migration of jewish people that ended up pushing the natives out of their land why not create it somewhere else where they wouldnt have these problems did no one foresee moving a group of people into a part of the world where the other people already dont like them that much causing any troubles down the line[/QUOTE] Does the 20% include Arabs living in Jordan? Might change the figure a bit if so. Anyway, it wasn't intentional. No-one who was organising it said to move them all there. There were a lot of Jewish refugees floating around, no-one was taking them, few guys who could organise stuff said to move them to the historic land of the Jews and they couldn't do much about it. There's not much else where they could've put it but they didn't have a choice really. The idea behind the separation was to avoid kicking natives out of their land, it was separated into the major areas and people [I]could[/I] have lived in another land in peace. Unfortunately humans are savage and everything went wrong what with Arabs being kicked out of Israel, Jews being kicked out of everywhere else, a war almost immediately and everything possible that could ruin it.
do you know how they even decided to put the israelis in palestine it was that foreign minister i mentioned earlier, balfour, who stoked the flames there were a lot of other ideas floating around to create a state for the jews but the balfour declaration basically got people to expect that the state would be situated in palestine, instead of one of the other numerous(many of them far more feasible) options
Balfour Declaration was just in response to people already wanting a state there. They didn't decide it all on their own. [quote=wiki]In 1896, Theodor Herzl, a Jewish journalist living in Austria-Hungary, published Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State"), in which he asserted that the only solution to the "Jewish Question" in Europe, including growing antisemitism, was through the establishment of a Jewish State. Political Zionism had just been born.[6] A year later, Herzl founded the Zionist Organization (ZO), which at its first congress, "called for the establishment of a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law".[/quote] Also I'm always keen to hear people's plans on where they could have placed it that would have solved all the worlds problems. Tell me, where could they have put it? [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] Does seem like that was the only spot anyone was thinking about putting it.
like i said an area in the southwest usa was an idea that was toyed around with a lot and could have been a lot better for everyone involved [editline]24th May 2011[/editline] i think they were also thinking about in asia somewhere and in other parts of the americas as well
So exactly how many Jews were already in this area? Would the current administrators of the area accept the numerous Refugees? [I]Could[/I] the current administrators of the area give them land? Is there any place where the same thing would not have happened?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;30022062]Plenty of Jews lived there too. Ones that were previously living there and refugees. It wasn't exclusive to the Palestinians and when it became apparent that neither side wanted a joint government, a two nation solution was the only option. Either that or intentionally put one side in power over the other instead of it happening accidentally, they'd probably try for secession anyway ala Sudan.[/QUOTE] If you live in Palestine and you're Jewish, you're still Palestinian.
[QUOTE=amute;30022284]If you live in Palestine and you're Jewish, you're still Palestinian.[/QUOTE] Fine, [B]Arab[/B] Palestinians then. Sorry you felt the need to point out such a small thing which everyone gathered the meaning of anyway.
Starpluck, you sure do like ignoring the fact of why Israel started the 1967 war in the first place? If Israel didn't, the Arabs would of pretty soon after. The 1967 borders started the war so why would Israel go back to using them anyway?
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