Germany's Foreign Minister calls Eurosceptics 'brainless'
38 replies, posted
[quote]Eurosceptics are "brainless" and pose a threat to the existence of the European Union, Germany's new foreign minister has said.
Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German foreign minster, has launched a vehement attack on the opponents of the EU and critics of the eurozone's economic policies.
"We must not avoid confrontation with populists, nationalists, with these brainless people who call themselves Eurosceptics," he told the Greek Ta Nea newspaper while on a visit to Athens.
"They all promote anything national without making proposals of their own."
His comments are an opening shot in what is expected to be a fierce political battle in European elections this May amid an growing popular backlash against the eurozone.[/quote]
Source: [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10561999/German-foreign-minister-attacks-brainless-Eurosceptics.html[/url]
41% of Europeans including 52% of Germans would vote against any new EU Treaty which gave the EU more powers. [url=http://www.openeurope.org.uk/Content/documents/Pdfs/mainfindings.pdf]Opinion Poll[/url]
yes that does sound like something germany would say
Turning people over by insults! Yay!
Ah yes, someone who disagrees with you is brainless. What is this politics or internet?
Most people are fucking stupid and easily swayed by baseless claims when they need something to blame their problems on. What is new?
Like it or not, many Euroskeptics have no idea what they are talking about. How convenient for them that lack of critical thinking skills and assigning blame to random groups/organisations/religions/nations goes hand in hand.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43477958]Most people are fucking stupid and easily swayed by baseless claims when they need something to blame their problems on. What is new?
Like it or not, many Euroskeptics have no idea what they are talking about. How convenient for them that lack of critical thinking skills and assigning blame to random groups/organisations/religions/nations goes hand in hand.[/QUOTE]
That kind of Holier-than-thou attitude won't get you anywhere closer to convincing any Eurosceptics that they're wrong, it will only entrench them further in their views.
[quote]"They all promote anything national without making proposals of their own."[/quote]
Sounds like he is bunching toghether nationalists and eurosceptics
I understand his frustration with the growing nationalist movement in Europe, but having certain concerns about the huge control apparatus that is the EU really doesn't make you belong to that movement. I for one agree with much of what the EU is doing and disagree with other things, but that's really just being an informed citizen.
[QUOTE=Scrappa;43477971]That kind of Holier-than-thou attitude won't get you anywhere closer to convincing any Eurosceptics that they're wrong, it will only entrench them further in their views.[/QUOTE]
The only way to convince populists of anything is by doing the exact same thing.
Shout opinions loudly and nastily until they are beaten into submission by a choir of equally retarded shit in the other direction. Most people literally don't have time in their daily lives to consider arguments from all points of view, and need by latch on to other populist ideas out of convenience. That's just the way it is, it isn't their fault. No one can be informed about everything, so you might as well fling dumb shit in the other direction.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43478049]The only way to convince populists of anything is by doing the exact same thing.
Shout opinions loudly and nastily until they are beaten into submission by a choir of equally retarded shit in the other direction. Most people literally don't have time in their daily lives to consider arguments from all points of view, and need by latch on to other populist ideas out of convenience. That's just the way it is.[/QUOTE]
that is tear inducingly naive
yes i'll launch an assault of insults on their mental defenses until they surrender and convert to my way of thinking, that's how it works
If you just sit someone in a chair and have R Lee Ermy loudly make assertions as to the nature of their sexuality for long enough you can make them into a communist, it's totally true
[QUOTE=Scrappa;43477852]Source: [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10561999/German-foreign-minister-attacks-brainless-Eurosceptics.html[/url]
41% of Europeans including 52% of Germans would vote against any new EU Treaty which gave the EU more powers. [url=http://www.openeurope.org.uk/Content/documents/Pdfs/mainfindings.pdf]Opinion Poll[/url][/QUOTE]
Nice stretch there, putting these numbers into his mouth, using the number of people who voting over specific concern to tag something he said about a particular group of people who may or may not correlate with these.
You aren't even linking Daily Mail, you [B]ARE[/B] the Daily Mail.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43478049]The only way to convince populists of anything is by doing the exact same thing.
Shout opinions loudly and nastily until they are beaten into submission by a choir of equally retarded shit in the other direction. Most people literally don't have time in their daily lives to consider arguments from all points of view, and need by latch on to other populist ideas out of convenience. That's just the way it is, it isn't their fault. No one can be informed about everything, so you might as well fling dumb shit in the other direction.[/QUOTE]
People are dumb, yes, but people aren't [I]that[/I] dumb. Present an argument that sounds convincing and makes sense, and you'll have people listening to it. Simply scoff at someone's views and call them stupid however and you'll just further entrench their opinions.
This is exactly why nationalist/racist groups are gaining traction in the West, do you realize this? There are groups out there making arguments that sound factual and convincing about how immigrants or the EU are taking over their country, and how does the opposing side react? They just call 'em "stupid racists," laugh in their face, and move on. That's not how you persuade someone to your side, all you're doing is presenting yourself as arrogant, delusional or "in on it."
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;43478158]Nice stretch there, putting these numbers into his mouth, using the number of people who voting over specific concern to tag something he said about a particular group of people who may or may not correlate with these.
You aren't even linking Daily Mail, you [B]ARE[/B] the Daily Mail.[/QUOTE]
Hey, last I checked he's never cheered for the brownshirts. Let's not be unnecessarily insulting.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;43478212]Hey, last I checked he's never cheered for the brownshirts. Let's not be unnecessarily insulting.[/QUOTE]
The title is just demagogic tho and I hate that.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;43478097]that is tear inducingly naive[/QUOTE]
Naive isn't the correct word.
I used to be extremely optimistic that everyone was just as objective and open minded as me.
Then I realised that in the real world, most people either don't have time to think, or don't have need to.
The EU can come out with figures that support their claims. The UK can hide reports commissioned by the government because they don't like the facts.
Facts don't convince people if they don't have time or don't care to read them.
Really the only way that things get done is by brainwashing each other with different varieties of shit.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;43478097]that is tear inducingly naive
yes i'll launch an assault of insults on their mental defenses until they surrender and convert to my way of thinking, that's how it works
If you just sit someone in a chair and have R Lee Ermy loudly make assertions as to the nature of their sexuality for long enough you can make them into a communist, it's totally true[/QUOTE]
You really think a significant fraction of people in USA would still refuse to believe evolution if that was the universal case?
Yup. At the risk of aggravating some people, isn't "shouting you opinion loud enough" pretty much how most republican congressmen get into office?
[QUOTE=demoguy08;43478411]Yup. At the risk of aggravating some people, isn't "shouting you opinion loud enough" pretty much how most republican congressmen get into office?[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately it's the way the world works.
Providing facts or even being correct isn't how you convince people you are correct.
You just have to shout loudly until your opinion becomes a [I]common sense fact.[/I]
[editline]9th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;43478211]They just call 'em "stupid racists," laugh in their face, and move on. That's not how you persuade someone to your side, all you're doing is presenting yourself as arrogant, delusional or "in on it."[/QUOTE]
If calling people you disagree with "stupid racists" works so badly...
... why do nationalist/racial groups do nothing but complain about how damaging it is to their cause that people can simply dismiss them as racists?
[I]Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.[/I]
[I]UKIP the Libertarian, non-racist party. (official description)[/I]
Buzzwords and shitflinging like calling all rightwingers racists is so effective at discrediting them that it completely marginalises their parties and makes people look elsewhere.
Can we just cut the crap about Eurosceptics not knowing shit?
I'm a Eurosceptic and I don't hate the EU and probably know more about it than most people.The EU does lots of great stuff for Europe such as the common market, the problem is that those in charge such as the Commission are unaccountable, self protecting and self interested which isn't in the common good of all the nations. I don't like being a Eurosceptic, if the EU was reduced to just the Council of the EU and the Council of Europe then I'd be happy with it.
[QUOTE=The mouse;43478610]Can we just cut the crap about Eurosceptics not knowing shit?
I'm a Eurosceptic and I don't hate the EU and probably know more about it than most people.The EU does lots of great stuff for Europe such as the common market, the problem is that those in charge such as the Commission are unaccountable, self protecting and self interested which isn't in the common good of all the nations. I don't like being a Eurosceptic, if the EU was reduced to just the Council of the EU and the Council of Europe then I'd be happy with it.[/QUOTE]
This so much.
It's pathetic having certain people brand people as "eurosceptics" and therefore idiots not to be taken seriously.
Well a large portion of voters, and in some countries, even a majority, don't want their country to pass even more power to the supranational institutions like the parliament or commission.
Why would anyone just disregard that? It's obviously a sign that parts of the European Integration is being done in a bad way, not just "populists" with "racist agendas"
It's just easier for people to brand people as idiots instead of taking these concerns seriously, and dealing with them.
I also believe that the EU should focus on collaboration by intergovernmentalism.
[QUOTE=The mouse;43478610]Can we just cut the crap about Eurosceptics not knowing shit?
I'm a Eurosceptic and I don't hate the EU and probably know more about it than most people.The EU does lots of great stuff for Europe such as the common market, the problem is that those in charge such as the Commission are unaccountable, self protecting and self interested which isn't in the common good of all the nations. I don't like being a Eurosceptic, if the EU was reduced to just the Council of the EU and the Council of Europe then I'd be happy with it.[/QUOTE]
The Council of Europe is not a part of the EU.
Also the commission is accountable; Parliament can vote a motion of no confidence which effectively forces the whole commission to resign.
You know.
Just like in parliaments of the member countries.
[QUOTE=The mouse;43478610]Can we just cut the crap about Eurosceptics not knowing shit?
I'm a Eurosceptic and I don't hate the EU and probably know more about it than most people.The EU does lots of great stuff for Europe such as the common market, the problem is that those in charge such as the Commission are unaccountable, self protecting and self interested which isn't in the common good of all the nations. I don't like being a Eurosceptic, if the EU was reduced to just the Council of the EU and the Council of Europe then I'd be happy with it.[/QUOTE]
How is the European Commission unaccountable? The president is elected by both the European Council and the Parliament, and the Parliament is voted in by the people of the EU. The other 27 members of the Commission are appointed by the Council and then finally all 28 are approved by the Parliament.
So unless by 'accountable', you mean 'every official is directly elected' (though, this is not the case for nearly every modern government), I'm not sure what else you would do to make them any more accountable. The Supreme Court here in the US is by this logic 'not accountable', and neither are the High Courts in Britain. Many government institutions (not dissimilar to the European Commission) are appointed in a similar way.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;43478909]The Council of Europe is not a part of the EU.
Also the commission is accountable; Parliament can vote a motion of no confidence which effectively forces the whole commission to resign.
You know.
Just like in parliaments of the member countries.[/QUOTE]
Right, you're right, it's not. However it has been mentioned in the Maastricht Treaty and acknowledged as "providing the Union with the necessary impetus for its development and shall define the general guidelines thereof". This means it is arguably just as important as the European-Commission.
And about being accountable: The commissioners are not accountable at all.
The Parliament can not, unlike most parliaments of other countries, dismiss single commissioners, but only the entire team of commissioners at once, which understandably can't be used a lot, since that'd obviously create a shitton of problems.
And even then, the parliament only represents about 40% of the entire EU population, due to low voter turnout, so they're hardly accountable to the European population, as the MEPs don't really represent them.
[editline]10th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megafan;43478922]How is the European Commission unaccountable? The president is elected by both the European Council and the Parliament, and the Parliament is voted in by the people of the EU. The other 27 members of the Commission are appointed by the Council and then finally all 28 are approved by the Parliament.
So unless by 'accountable', you mean 'every official is directly elected' (though, this is not the case for nearly every modern government), I'm not sure what else you would do to make them any more accountable. The Supreme Court here in the US is by this logic 'not accountable', and neither are the High Courts in Britain. Many government institutions (not dissimilar to the European Commission) are appointed in a similar way.[/QUOTE]
Judges aren't accountable because they're supposed to be independent.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;43478909]The Council of Europe is not a part of the EU.
Also the commission is accountable; Parliament can vote a motion of no confidence which effectively forces the whole commission to resign.
You know.
Just like in parliaments of the member countries.[/QUOTE]
The Eu parliament cannot be trusted to hold the Commission to account because it's in many of their vested interests to agree with it and they benefit from doing so, for example the Commission wants more integration, this therefore benefits the parliament but not necessarily the member states.
[QUOTE=Megafan;43478922]How is the European Commission unaccountable? The president is elected by both the European Council and the Parliament, and the Parliament is voted in by the people of the EU. The other 27 members of the Commission are appointed by the Council and then finally all 28 are approved by the Parliament.
So unless by 'accountable', you mean 'every official is directly elected' (though, this is not the case for nearly every modern government), I'm not sure what else you would do to make them any more accountable. The Supreme Court here in the US is by this logic 'not accountable', and neither are the High Courts in Britain. Many government institutions (not dissimilar to the European Commission) are appointed in a similar way.[/QUOTE]
They're not accountable to 99% of the People of Europe, people don't directly vote for the European Council and most people don't even know who their MEP is let alone how to contact them and as I said, the parliament isn't trustworthy in handling the Commission. The EU parliament cannot represent it's constituents enough to call the Commission accountable.
Most unelected officials in Modern Governments have very little power while the elected officials have a lot of power, in the EU the Commission officials wield large power while still being unaccountable. In the case of high courts, as they aren't policy makers or law makers, only enforcers there's no reason for them to be elected.
[QUOTE=The mouse;43479073]The Eu parliament cannot be trusted to hold the Commission to account because it's in many of their vested interests to agree with it and they benefit from doing so, for example the Commission wants more integration, this therefore benefits the parliament but not necessarily the member states.[/QUOTE]
How are you in any position to judge that?
[editline]9th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TehMentos;43479018]Right, you're right, it's not. However it has been mentioned in the Maastricht Treaty and acknowledged as "providing the Union with the necessary impetus for its development and shall define the general guidelines thereof". This means it is arguably just as important as the European-Commission.
And about being accountable: The commissioners are not accountable at all.
The Parliament can not, unlike most parliaments of other countries, dismiss single commissioners, but only the entire team of commissioners at once, which understandably can't be used a lot, since that'd obviously create a shitton of problems.[/quote]
Fair enough, but we're having a different conversation entirely then. What you're talking about efficiency, not accountability.
[QUOTE=TehMentos;43479018]And even then, the parliament only represents about 40% of the entire EU population, due to low voter turnout, so they're hardly accountable to the European population, as the MEPs don't really represent them.[/quote]
Okay, so let's look into *why* voter turnout is bad? It's certainly not inherent to the parliamentary system.
[QUOTE=TehMentos;43479018]Judges aren't accountable because they're supposed to be independent.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a very arbitrary distinction for people who are going to be deciding on your laws. Do you think local politicians in the member states are unaccountable as well, since the voter turnout rates tend to much lower than those for national elections?
[QUOTE=Megafan;43479111]
Fair enough, but we're having a different conversation entirely then. What you're talking about efficiency, not accountability.
[/Quote]
It's quite naive to say that because the parliament can dismiss the entire commission (which would only happen in very insanely bad situations.) they're accountable. The individual commissioners are not accountable because they can get away with a lot of things, unlike the ministers in the member states.
[QUOTE=Megafan;43479111]
Okay, so let's look into *why* voter turnout is bad? It's certainly not inherent to the parliamentary system.
[/Quote]
Several studies have done exactly that, and there's a huge debate about whether there's a European "demos" at all.
Main points are most often that people aren't interested in the EU, because it's too far away and a very complicated system with very little transparency (In many cases you don't even know which MEPs voted for what).
Something needs to be done about that. It's not okay to just say "Oh well, they're not voting, their problem", unless we're not aiming for a democratic EU.
[QUOTE=Megafan;43479111]
Sounds like a very arbitrary distinction for people who are going to be deciding on your laws. Do you think local politicians in the member states are unaccountable as well, since the voter turnout rates tend to much lower than those for national elections?[/QUOTE]
It's a problem that I know my country, Denmark, is doing a lot of things to change, because it's a serious issue.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;43478158]Nice stretch there, putting these numbers into his mouth, using the number of people who voting over specific concern to tag something he said about a particular group of people who may or may not correlate with these.
You aren't even linking Daily Mail, you [B]ARE[/B] the Daily Mail.[/QUOTE]
"May or may not correlate with these" LMFAO
Of course it correlates, it's the exact same thing! Euroscepticism is the opposition to increasing the amount of power the EU has. [url=http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Eurosceptic]That's literally what it is.[/url] That opinion poll shows 41% of Europeans are opposed to increasing the amount of power the EU has, including 52% of Germans.
He called Eurosceptics brainless, opinion poll clearly shows 41% of Europeans and 52% of Germans are the Oxford definition of Eurosceptic. So he called those people brainless, what was wrong with the thread title?
There's a difference between Eurosceptics and people who oppose increasing the power of the EU.
I support more integration of Europe as a whole, and that is what is happening. To say that Belgium is taking over Europe or something similar is nonsense.
Public Relations 101
Don't fucking insult the people you're attempting to win over, for Christ sake!
After the whole ACTA debacle, staying in the european union doesn't sound fun at all as it will happen again, and eventually pass.
[QUOTE=TehMentos;43479301]It's quite naive to say that because the parliament can dismiss the entire commission (which would only happen in very insanely bad situations.) they're accountable. The individual commissioners are not accountable because they can get away with a lot of things, unlike the ministers in the member states.[/QUOTE]
And yet they're accountable. Parliament has multiple times told the commission to "sack this guy or we'll sack the entire commission", and usually the commission caves and sends those guys home.
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