• America, propaganda, and socialism
    240 replies, posted
I'll start off by admitting that the shit storm starting after Obama's inauguration in 2008 regarding socialism has died down considerably. However, I'd like to know why it was ever an issue. And by socialism, I mean [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism]socialism[/url]; not [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism]communism[/url]. [b]Point 1:[/b] Socialism is not inherently bad It is a flawed economic and political theory that, when implemented [i]completely[/i] or under a totalitarian society, is very likely to fail. However, any rational politician will maintain that the most successful of the world's political systems are derived from various ideas; borrowing and combining aspects of each to create a better overall theory. Since socialism is a legitimate and (in theory) reasonable idea, why are we so quick to dismiss any push for consideration of even a semi-socialist implementation into American government? [b]Point 2:[/b] Our perception of socialism is misguided Beginning shortly after WWII, continuing through the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_scare]"Red Scare"[/url], and ultimately, right up until the end of the Cold War, America has been the subject of ambiguous propaganda regarding Marxism and communism. By ambiguous, I mean that this propaganda was morphed and evolved over the years to encompass Marxism, communism, fascism, socialism, and their respective derivatives as if they were all one in the same. As if they were all equally "evil." While I cannot argue in favor of any of the aforementioned political systems (socialism excluded), I can say with certainty that socialism was unfairly dragged into the tussle. It is from this that we, as a society, root our ingrained discomfort with the word. [b]Point 3:[/b] America is already socialized What? America is socialist? No, but the American government has socialized quite a few significant things. Namely, [list] [*]Law enforcement [*]Fire department [*]Education [*]The military and Coast Guard [*]Libraries and museums [*]Public parks [*]Public roads [*]Telephone lines [*]Post offices [*]Airports [*]Jails and the judicial system [*]Gas, electricity, and water [*]Old people [/list] A full, detailed list would be much longer, but you get the idea. Even healthcare is somewhat socialized, but it's not hard to see how much we're in need of a complete rethinking of that system. [b]Point 4:[/b] Capitalism is not without downfalls A country in which you are free to earn, free to buy and sell, and free to succeed sounds ideal. The only problem is, who decides at what point you are going too far? People here are free to capitalize on whatever they want, and that can have consequences. We have privately owned hospitals, privately owned emergency services, privately owned civil defense, privately owned construction companies, privately owned space-exploration companies, and scariest of all, privately owned oil companies. Privatized industries can be great benefactors to a country, but it's a gamble. For example, certain privatized emergency services are some of the best around, where ambulances can respond up to twice as fast as typical government sponsored services. However, at the other end of the spectrum, oil companies are able to charge outrageous prices to distributors for the same reason. In general, while we all hope privatized services are in it for the greater good, they are usually in it for themselves. [b]Point 5:[/b] American philosophy says we should listen to socialists America is a democratic republic. America is generally a capitalist society. We are a "melting pot" of cultures and beliefs. It is (theoretically) our very nature to at least hear out liberal movements involving socialism. Then again, it is also our very nature, theoretically, to give Nazism, Fascism, Communism, and the prospect of a totalitarian dictatorship a chance in the spotlight as well. The difference is that certain aspects of socialism, when added to the overall equation of modern America, have a feasible chance at improving the country considerably. It is for this reason that we should approach the topic much more intellectually, even if taken with a grain of salt. I'm interested to hear your thoughts :munch: [b]Edit:[/b] Aww you guys are so nice. Giving me all these boxes to build my new world order :hitler:
Oh god not this shit again...
Because in any societal system there will be corruption, that's why socialism and communism would work out even more imbalanced and fucked up than capitalism is.
These never end well
@Broni, remember I am not suggesting anywhere near complete socialism
America hasn't socialized shit... The whole idea of socialism is that people don't earn money from their job the state pays them an allowance suitable to their means. Everyone puts everything into the pot for the greater good, rather than grabbing up and taking as much as they can..therefore some people end up with less because others have more. How the hell can you say America is socialist when you don't even have National Health? How exactly are parks, old people and telephone lines socialist to pick a few?... Socialism is not flawed, it's a perfect idea.. ON PAPER. Much like Communism. Most people tend to forget that a large amount of the population are corrupt greedy fucks... Which is why we have Capitalism and why the USA hates communists so much! Those corperate bigguys sure don't want to share their bank account with any poor people.
[QUOTE=Broni;26900863]Socialism is not flawed, it's a perfect idea.. ON PAPER. Much like Communism. Most people tend to forget that a large amount of the population are corrupt greedy fucks.[/QUOTE] The same could be said for capitalism, too.
[QUOTE=Broni;26900863]How the hell can you say America is socialist[/QUOTE] I explicitly stated it was not.
I've been living here in the UK (yes I know its capitalist) for about 4 years and lived in the states since birth. I have a feeling for both systems and honestly, I like Capitalism better. I really don't care for socialized health care. I don't like waiting months for a surgery just because people came before me. (I just realized that made me sound like a huge ass) but if I work harder than some crack addict, then I want a blood transfusion first!
[QUOTE=DamagePoint;26900907]The same could be said for capitalism, too.[/QUOTE] Of course, I'm pointing out that the only reason we don't live in a Socialist utopia by now is because people are hoarding fat greedy bastards. I mean what is it.. I can't even remember the figure but most of the worlds wealth is held by below 10% of the population? That alone should speak volumes.. Mr Sun. UK National Health is very "Socialist" and it means you have a choice because it exists in the confines of a capitalist society, don't like waiting? I'm sure you've heard of BUPA. I'm sure if you didn't have a penny to your name and needed a lifesaving blood transfusion you wouldn't mind waiting for the free healthcare!
[QUOTE=Broni;26900927]Of course, I'm pointing out that the only reason we don't live in a Socialist utopia by now is because people are hoarding fat greedy bastards. I mean what is it.. I can't even remember the figure but most of the worlds wealth is held by below 10% of the population? That alone should speak volumes.. Mr Sun. UK National Health is very "Socialist" and it means you have a choice because it exists in the confines of a capitalist society, don't like waiting? I'm sure you've heard of BUPA. I'm sure if you didn't have a penny to your name and needed a lifesaving blood transfusion you wouldn't mind waiting for the free healthcare![/QUOTE] People are not hoarding fat greedy bastards. Its in our nature to want things and to have things and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE=Broni;26900927]Of course, I'm pointing out that the only reason we don't live in a Socialist utopia by now is because people are hoarding fat greedy bastards. I mean what is it.. I can't even remember the figure but most of the worlds wealth is held by below 10% of the population? That alone should speak volumes..[/QUOTE] I see what you're saying. Yes, in America I think the top 5% make about 90% of the income, or something similar to that number. I think if you take the entire world's population it's even worse.
[QUOTE=Earthen;26900984]People are not hoarding fat greedy bastards. Its in our nature to want things and to have things.[/QUOTE] ...Sorry were you fucking asleep during the recession where every bank in the USA and the United Kingdom over lent and invested and pissed away money they didn't have? There's wanting a nice house and nice things and then there's having £250,000,000 in the bank. You're telling me it doesn't make you slightly sick when you hear about some fucking asshole winning 28 million on the lottery and pissing it all away when people could have used that money to eat..so they wouldn't die.
@Broni: If you tried a less extreme approach to explaining your arguments, it would be easier to listen.
Try to listen with my cock in your ear.
Which American government are you talking about? there are Capitalist, Socialist and Communist country's in America. or are you reffering to "The United States"?
Smartarse.
What I love is when Republicans complain about all these new socialist idea and then I remind them Bush Jr. bought out GM That usually shuts them up
There is always someone out there who wants more than the others have, actually many many many people like that. Those are the people who will cause the problems. Greed is the downfall of socialism.
[QUOTE=Dragon Master;26901241]Which American government are you talking about? there are Capitalist, Socialist and Communist country's in America. or are you reffering to "The United States"?[/QUOTE] That's an unnecessary question, but I'll bite. The democratic republic of the United States of America under president Barack Obama. The one in the Western hemisphere right above Mexico.
why do we always have to pick america when we want something to bitch about why dont we pick England next time
[QUOTE=Moose;26901336]why do we always have to pick america when we want something to bitch about why dont we pick England next time[/QUOTE] I don't live in England
[QUOTE=Mr. Sun;26900920]I've been living here in the UK (yes I know its capitalist) for about 4 years and lived in the states since birth. I have a feeling for both systems and honestly, I like Capitalism better. I really don't care for socialized health care. I don't like waiting months for a surgery just because people came before me. (I just realized that made me sound like a huge ass) but if I work harder than some crack addict, then I want a blood transfusion first![/QUOTE] Except capitalism doesn't work like that. By and large what happens is someone gets very rich in one generation and he just passes on his wealth. How can you say you're more deserving than someone who is born into poverty? Actually, by your logic Paris Hilton should get treatment for liver failure before a woman who worked at a checkout every day of her life.
I'm a socialist, but I only really feel socialism can succeed if we teach kids the concept of collective interdependency, that everyone ultimately relies on each other, not going to happen any time soon, I know, but I believe (idealistically) a free socialist society would be a very good place to live.
UK is pretty liberal socialist, and we have London; the economic capital of the world.
thomas jefferson was what we would call today a communist he believed society would be perfect if all people had ten acres of land and participated directly in politics when people died their acres would be redistributed to the people people would work to their ability and provide to the needs of the community
[img]http://www.annefrankguide.com/it-IT/content/stalin.jpg[/img] :downs: Hmm... The picture resolution is 666x1000. 666....
Democratic socialism is used by the countries ranked best in the world and that's all that needs to be said on the subject.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;26902053]Democratic socialism is used by the countries ranked best in the world and that's all that needs to be said on the subject.[/QUOTE] Totally agree, Scandinavia: highest taxes, happiest people.
Capitalism got pros and cons. Socialism got pros and cons. One is good, one is evil. Both are liable to curruption.
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