• Blizzard tentatively aims its nerf gun at Widowmaker
    32 replies, posted
[url]http://www.pcgamer.com/blizzard-tentatively-aims-its-nerf-gun-at-widowmaker[/url]
[quote]Widowmaker's skill ceiling is certainly among the highest of Overwatch's cast[/quote] hahaha [editline]10th June 2016[/editline] Thank god, hope this comes out asap
Widowmaker is probably the easiest, most effortless Sniper I've ever played in any game.
I love playing Winston just to hop on top of that cunt and electrocute the fucking shit out of her over and over until she changes class [I]FUCK[/I] Widowmaker
[QUOTE=Novangel;50484711]hahaha [editline]10th June 2016[/editline] Thank god, hope this comes out asap[/QUOTE] Widowmaker's skill ceiling [i]is[/i] certainly among the highest in the game. It's just that her skill floor is pretty damn low as well. Skill Floor: how easy it is for a rookie to play well Skill Ceiling: how much of an advantage an expert has over a rookie While Widowmaker is fairly easy to play for anyone, someone with good aim and good positioning can absolutely dominate to a degree that other heroes can't.
Good, she really seems like she was balanced for consoles, you watch console gameplay for this game and she doesn't stand out at all, on PC she is an absolute fucking nightmare and pure salt factory Even in closed in KOTH maps she's there to ruin the round, sick of it
[QUOTE=Novangel;50484711]hahaha [editline]10th June 2016[/editline] Thank god, hope this comes out asap[/QUOTE] You know if they nerf her she will still be insanely good if people know how to play her to her fullest. That's what skill ceiling means..
[QUOTE=Benstokes;50484853]Widowmaker's skill ceiling [i]is[/i] certainly among the highest in the game. It's just that her skill floor is pretty damn low as well. Skill Floor: how easy it is for a rookie to play well Skill Ceiling: how much of an advantage an expert has over a rookie While Widowmaker is fairly easy to play for anyone, someone with good aim and good positioning can absolutely dominate to a degree that other heroes can't.[/QUOTE] I'd argue her skill ceiling is lower compared to some of the other heroes out there.
[QUOTE=Benstokes;50484853]Widowmaker's skill ceiling [i]is[/i] certainly among the highest in the game. It's just that her skill floor is pretty damn low as well. Skill Floor: how easy it is for a rookie to play well Skill Ceiling: how much of an advantage an expert has over a rookie While Widowmaker is fairly easy to play for anyone, someone with good aim and good positioning can absolutely dominate to a degree that other heroes can't.[/QUOTE] Wait what? Doesn't a low skill floor mean that rookies play that character badly? A high skill floor would mean that even the worst player could be good with a character. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ge55Bjn.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Ricool06;50485013]Wait what? Doesn't a low skill floor mean that rookies play that character badly? A high skill floor would mean that even the worst player could be good with a character. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ge55Bjn.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Low skill floor means it's easy to get a grasp of, while a high skill ceiling means the skill you need to master the character perfectly is high.
Some quick, bad examples. [del]Low[/del] [B]High [/B][B]Skill Floor:[/B] Genji, Tracer, Zenyatta [New/Bad Players are effectively useless as these.] [B]Low Skill Ceiling:[/B] (There's not really one, but maybe Torb or Bastion? Both have snazzy tricks and can be played well.) [Good Players are going to find difficulty remaining competitive or even better than bad players with these.] [del]High[/del] [B]Low [/B][B]Skill Floor:[/B] Mei, McCree [New/Bad Players can play these very effectively with little effort.] [B]High Skill Ceiling:[/B] Also Genji, Widowmaker [Good Players are going to absolutely destroy a match with these because using various skills, they become absurdly powerful.] But a good "I have spent 3 months of playtime of my life playing Snipers in video games" Widowmaker can shutdown an entire match while also having exactly zero hard-counters other a better copy of herself. There are some soft-counters, like Winston annoying her (the closest thing to a hard counter), or Reinhart shielding teammates, but nothing uproots/kills them very easily. Especially when poor map design lets them dig in behind an entire team with zero methods to flank or get to them. I hope they nerf Widowmaker and McCree hard, so mid/high level play becomes more interesting than teams always having those two.
[QUOTE=Doom14;50485067] [B]Low Skill Floor:[/B] Genji, Tracer, Zenyatta [B]Low Skill Ceiling:[/B] (There's not really one, but maybe Torb or Mercy? Bot have snazzy tricks.) [B]High Skill Floor:[/B] Mei, McCree [B]High Skill Ceiling:[/B] Also Genji, Widowmaker [/QUOTE] This is the most incorrect thing I've ever heard.
I thought low skill floor meant easier to pick up, and high skill floor meant harder to pick up?
[QUOTE=Oizen;50485074]This is the most incorrect thing I've ever heard.[/QUOTE] It was a quick drop off, maybe I have the definitions backwards with floors; but as someone with a 55% W/R almost always queuing solo in a game that heavily and obnoxiously uses MMR, let me rephrase this. Bad players are going to be worthless in a mid/high team playing Genji/Tracer/Zenny, but marginally effective with Mei/McCree. Good players are going to be not so effective behind Torb or Bastion (and are better off playing something else unless the comp dictates otherwise), but can shut down an entire match/flank by being good at Widowmaker/Genji. You haven't know a special kind of hell until some 120 hour Genji gets behind your team and winds up distracting (and killing) them for the full match timer. And there are some Widowmakers who will actively run around on KOTH matches at pissing-distance getting off super fast 150 damage bodyshots repeatedly, with the occasional headshot to shut you down if you dare move after them.
Low Skill Floor: A new player will have an easier time learning the ropes of the character. Low Skill Ceiling: A new player will have an easier time playing the character to its highest potential. High Skill Floor: The character is difficult for new players to pick up and learn. High Skill Ceiling: The character requires a very skilled player to play it to its highest potential.
She has too many really effective tools at her disposal - an escape/mobility hookshot, a mine that poisons and alerts of flanks, an extremely fast damage charge-up, spammable rifle that can kill 2 of the classes with just a bodyshot and a legal wall-hack bundled with some aim assist on the ultimate.
The floor/ceiling thing is confusing because when referring to athletes, a high floor and low ceiling means that they'll start out better than most but have lower potential. Which sounds like the opposite of how these characters are being described relative to who plays them.
I've never heard anybody use the "skill floor" terminology, but I don't understand how people can mix it up. Low is unskilled, high is skilled. Floor is the 'point of entry', ceiling is how much you can apply before you're as competent as you can be. so, low floor/point of entry/whatever means you can be unskilled to start using it effectively, high floor means you need to be decent at the game/mechanics/understanding of everything else to really make use of it similarly: [QUOTE=Meller Yeller;50485519]The floor/ceiling thing is confusing because when referring to athletes, a high floor and low ceiling means that they'll start out better than most but have lower potential. Which sounds like the opposite of how these characters are being described relative to who plays them.[/QUOTE] the thing about this is that you're not talking about the tools they're using (or I guess events/competitions they're participating in), but the players themselves. So, a high floor athlete will, like you said, be very skillful early on in competition. They can compete effectively in high skill floor events, because they are in the proper skill bracket to do so, whereas low skill floor athletes may not be able to do so even if they're capable of a lot of improvement down the line. in the end the thing that needs nerfing most is career widowmakers themselves. We don't always need a damn sniper standing off in the middle of nowhere, especially on payload>attack
[QUOTE=dai;50485684]in the end the thing that needs nerfing most is career widowmakers themselves. We don't always need a damn sniper standing off in the middle of nowhere, especially on payload>attack[/QUOTE] Good team comp and common sense can sometimes be scarce in Quick Play. I hope it'll be different in ranked. [QUOTE=Meller Yeller;50485519]The floor/ceiling thing is confusing because when referring to athletes, a high floor and low ceiling means that they'll start out better than most but have lower potential. Which sounds like the opposite of how these characters are being described relative to who plays them.[/QUOTE] It isn't. A high floor is a character that is hard to get into and a low ceiling is a character that it's easy to get the most of.
I find their charge rate/mobility is too big of an advantage. This is for decent Widow Makers of course, not bad ones. The rate of how fast they charge their rifle as well as going on with follow through attacks and the ability to quickly move and re-situate is too much of a pain considering any CS:GO player whose decent/good can pretty much level a team. Why they have such of a stupidly high rate of sniper charge, I don't know why, but these are the same people who've made EVERY hitbox absurdly big.
The problem is hanzo has literally no place in higher skill brackets because you're better off playing widow. It's like playing hits can to projectile.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;50485728]I find their charge rate/mobility is too big of an advantage. This is for decent Widow Makers of course, not bad ones. The rate of how fast they charge their rifle as well as going on with follow through attacks and the ability to quickly move and re-situate is too much of a pain considering any CS:GO player whose decent/good can pretty much level a team. Why they have such of a stupidly high rate of sniper charge, I don't know why, but these are the same people who've made EVERY hitbox absurdly big.[/QUOTE] if you missed my post in the hitbox thread, non-hitscan projectiles with slow travel times and arcs have hitbox sizes of their own to compensate for how fast other players often move or how distant they are in most combat situations. It can still use a lot of tweaking but it's actually on the path to decent balance of skill vs game-related inaccuracy at any rate, the biggest flaw in widow's weapon is that it charges to a 150 bodyshot damage bullet in one second flat, doesn't get unscoped nor is the aim kicked off in a random direciton or is she otherwise penalized for multiple shots (of which you can fire what, 10 before having to reload???), and the fact her weapon is automatically a competent assault rifle when unscoped without even having to swap weapons like mercy, and having the ridiculous chain thing as an escape to any surface in sight (instead of strictly ledges) on a decent cooldown, and 200 health, is just [i]too much[/i] for a character who's supposed to stay out of the heat of fights in the first place. If she gets flanked she should be damn good and pretty lucky to survive, I think someone already mentioned but as it stands if she jumps around enough she can out-DPS and eventually kill a full-health DVa mech AND the following pilot at point blank
I think there are two different systems being talked about here. A system of skill for execution (Low skill floors mean it's easier to operate the character in a competent way) (High skill floors mean it's more difficult to use the character at their most basic) (High skill ceilings mean there are a lot of techniques and factors to master and refine that give you an advantage (strafing/advanced movement, tricks like flare jumping in tf2, rotations that lead to the highest DPS, etc)) (Low skill ceilings mean that once you have learned to control fundamental basics of a character, there is not much more to learn to acquire any advantage.) A system of skill for effectiveness (Low skill floor means that a character played by a player without much skill will still contribute to a match) (High skill floor means that a character played by a player without much skill will not be able to contribute to the match) (High skill ceiling means that a character will be increasingly powerful in a match when the player is very skillful) (Low skill ceiling means that a character will stop increasing in effectiveness as the skill of the player increases)
rip. I never had a problem with widowmakers, even good ones. So many ways to counter them and was hoping they would never nerf her.
[QUOTE=Doom14;50485067]Some quick, bad examples. [del]Low[/del] [B]High [/B][B]Skill Floor:[/B] Genji, Tracer, Zenyatta [New/Bad Players are effectively useless as these.] [B]Low Skill Ceiling:[/B] (There's not really one, but maybe Torb or Bastion? Both have snazzy tricks and can be played well.) [Good Players are going to find difficulty remaining competitive or even better than bad players with these.] [del]High[/del] [B]Low [/B][B]Skill Floor:[/B] Mei, McCree [New/Bad Players can play these very effectively with little effort.] [B]High Skill Ceiling:[/B] Also Genji, Widowmaker [Good Players are going to absolutely destroy a match with these because using various skills, they become absurdly powerful.] But a good "I have spent 3 months of playtime of my life playing Snipers in video games" Widowmaker can shutdown an entire match while also having exactly zero hard-counters other a better copy of herself. There are some soft-counters, like Winston annoying her (the closest thing to a hard counter), or Reinhart shielding teammates, but nothing uproots/kills them very easily. Especially when poor map design lets them dig in behind an entire team with zero methods to flank or get to them. I hope they nerf Widowmaker and McCree hard, so mid/high level play becomes more interesting than teams always having those two.[/QUOTE] Mcree a high skill floor? That's the funniest shit I've read all day I can jut right click and whatever I point at dies. Miss? Shift and try again!
The amount of bullshit Widowmaker has at her disposal is among the highest of the Overwatch cast is what the quote should've been. Being able to do 150 in a bodyshot that charges in 1.5 sec is idiotic Having this much firepower at such extreme range in such quick succession should warrant lowest health in the game, instead she's given 200 for no reasons whatsoever. She's (iirc) the only character that literally [B] refunds [/B] the cooldown if you fuck up your hook by hooking into nothing. Her damn animation when jumping all over the place is retarded since she bends her legs midair, and since this freak of nature consists of 80% legs the hitbox is pretty much cut in half in mid-air. Her rifle mode is easily the most powerful of all rifles (76's and Bastion's) since she shoots faster, with a large clip and has narrower spread (and takes more bullets for the crosshair to bloom.. Seriously what the fuck) They seriously need to normalize her hitbox / animation when jumping and the hook being refunded if you're shooting it into nothing, and they need to nerf her firepower & health, make her a 150 hp class and either reduce the charge rate when zoomed in by at least half, or make it so that she can only shoot when at max charge and possibly reduce a body shot to 125 in either case.
[QUOTE=Bragdras;50486328]The amount of bullshit Widowmaker has at her disposal is among the highest of the Overwatch cast is what the quote should've been. Being able to do 150 in a bodyshot that charges in 1.5 sec is idiotic Having this much firepower at such extreme range in such quick succession should warrant lowest health in the game, instead she's given 200 for no reasons whatsoever. She's (iirc) the only character that literally [B] refunds [/B] the cooldown if you fuck up your hook by hooking into nothing. Her damn animation when jumping all over the place is retarded since she bends her legs midair, and since this freak of nature consists of 80% legs the hitbox is pretty much cut in half in mid-air. Her rifle mode is easily the most powerful of all rifles (76's and Bastion's) since she shoots faster, with a large clip and has narrower spread (and takes more bullets for the crosshair to bloom.. Seriously what the fuck) They seriously need to normalize her hitbox / animation when jumping and the hook being refunded if you're shooting it into nothing, and they need to nerf her firepower & health, make her a 150 hp class and either reduce the charge rate when zoomed in by at least half, or make it so that she can only shoot when at max charge and possibly reduce a body shot to 125 in either case.[/QUOTE] Hook targeting is a bit dodgy, it's fine that it gets refunded imo. It's like when you use Zarya's E or Mercy's ult with no valid target, it won't cost you anything.
the semantics in this thread amazes me so much that someones going to reply to my post and argue the meta-semantics of my post
[QUOTE=Bragdras;50486328]The amount of bullshit Widowmaker has at her disposal is among the highest of the Overwatch cast is what the quote should've been. Being able to do 150 in a bodyshot that charges in 1.5 sec is idiotic Having this much firepower at such extreme range in such quick succession should warrant lowest health in the game, instead she's given 200 for no reasons whatsoever. She's (iirc) the only character that literally [B] refunds [/B] the cooldown if you fuck up your hook by hooking into nothing. Her damn animation when jumping all over the place is retarded since she bends her legs midair, and since this freak of nature consists of 80% legs the hitbox is pretty much cut in half in mid-air. Her rifle mode is easily the most powerful of all rifles (76's and Bastion's) since she shoots faster, with a large clip and has narrower spread (and takes more bullets for the crosshair to bloom.. Seriously what the fuck) They seriously need to normalize her hitbox / animation when jumping and the hook being refunded if you're shooting it into nothing, and they need to nerf her firepower & health, make her a 150 hp class and either reduce the charge rate when zoomed in by at least half, or make it so that she can only shoot when at max charge and possibly reduce a body shot to 125 in either case.[/QUOTE] lol choose like 1 or maybe possibly 2 of those things and you're right. Doing all of that would make widowmaker the worst class easy
[QUOTE=MisterLANCE;50489575]lol choose like 1 or maybe possibly 2 of those things and you're right. Doing all of that would make widowmaker the worst class easy[/QUOTE] with all the shit widow can do that isn't sniping like to be honest i wouldn't even mind if blizzard just straight up consciously made her the worst class [sp]at least nerf her close-range effectiveness would be great[/sp]
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