• Scottish Referendum? 'Better Together'?
    74 replies, posted
As most of you might know; the MSPs passed the Scottish referendum bill on the 14/11/13 (yesterday). I'm against the referendum and I am - unless convinced otherwise in this thread - going to cast my vote as a disagree to the Scottish upcoming referendum in 2014. From what I've gathered from my own research, my Modern Studies school class and actually being in the debating chamber during the questions I personally think we're better together. Scottish tuition feels for university may no longer remain complimentary. As speaking to my local labour MSP and my local Liberal Democrat MSP, Danny Alexander; I've heard that the labour party is willing to keep the tuition fees complementary and that other opposing parties have no manifesto just yet, so Danny Alexander withheld his opinion regarding my question. Secondarily, the Union has served both countries for well over 300 years and it would be devolution is a young experiment and too soon to judge it. My third point currently would be regarding Scotland's public spending. There is a gap between public spending in Scotland (£40bn) and revenue raised there (£27bn). A Scottish government would have to choose between higher taxes and cuts in public services.
400 years. The union has lasted as personal union since the 1600s. They used this flag when Stuart was raised as King of England, I think. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Union_Jack_1606_Scotland.svg[/img] And well, aside from the mutual relationship shared for the past 410 years or so, Scotland just isn't it's own country. It's like a state if anything, but it doesn't have anything to grasp onto except hollywood myths and stereotypes regarding it's culture. The language of "scots" is just mumbled english and if anything, the highlands deserve more autonomy than just the independence of a country that's an extension of northern england.
Logically, we would be better if Scotland did leave. As this would most likely to cause financial issues for Scotland, England would lose some (if not, most) of our shipyards, and Scotland would probably have to use the Euro.
It hasn't existed as a governmental union for 400 years, though. Sharing a Monarch doesn't make our countries unified in law
[QUOTE=Britishboy;42872915]Logically, we would be better if Scotland did leave. As this would most likely to cause financial issues for Scotland, England would lose some (if not, most) of our shipyards, and Scotland would probably have to use the Euro.[/QUOTE] Think of the flag though, man. What are we going to do? Add Wales to it now that Scotland leaves?
I would have been happy with devo max, annoying that they took that off the referendum.
[QUOTE=Marzipas;42873115]I would have been happy with devo max, annoying that they took that off the referendum.[/QUOTE] It would have split the no/yes vote. The answer is whenever or not people want independence. If a majority vote "no", then another can be held where people can vote for "devomax". Then again, what exactly does devomax entail in terms of autonomy?
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;42873049]Think of the flag though, man. What are we going to do? Add Wales to it now that Scotland leaves?[/QUOTE] At least we'd get a kickarse dragon on it.
[QUOTE=Bad)-(and;42872921]It hasn't existed as a governmental union for 400 years, though. Sharing a Monarch doesn't make our countries unified in law[/QUOTE] According to Danny Alexander, Scotland will remain living under a monarchy if independence status is granted. [QUOTE=Britishboy;42872915]Logically, we would be better if Scotland did leave. As this would most likely to cause financial issues for Scotland, England would lose some (if not, most) of our shipyards, and Scotland would probably have to use the Euro.[/QUOTE] Somewhat true. Although as Shetland is part of the United Kingdom it is possible that Scotland may be charged commissions by the UKs government as it's technically no longer our land, so to say.
[QUOTE=Jonne Bravo;42873338]According to Danny Alexander, Scotland will remain living under a monarchy if independence status is granted.[/QUOTE] I know. I was backing up your point that Scotland and England have been unified, in law, for a little over 300 years. Not 400. Alex Salmond has said the Queen will be Scotland's monarch in an indepedent Scotland Also, the Shetland Islands are Scottish islands and would be governed by Scotland if it were to vote in favour of independence. They are a Scottish constituency and are represented in the Scottish parliament
[QUOTE=Bad)-(and;42873737]I know. I was backing up your point that Scotland and England have been unified, in law, for a little over 300 years. Not 400. Alex Salmond has said the Queen will be Scotland's monarch in an indepedent Scotland Also, the Shetland Islands are Scottish islands and would be governed by Scotland if it were to vote in favour of independence. They are a Scottish constituency and are represented in the Scottish parliament[/QUOTE] I haven't looked into the whole Shetland Islands situations, I was only posting my opinion naively.
Devo Max is a bit silly. We are already pretty much devo max, unless we want to suddenly drive on the right after the border or whatever. I'm up for an independent Scotland but only if it is going to be remotely financially viable.
I haven't seen enough evidence from the Yes camp that we could support ourselves financially after the referendum. As much as I WANT an independent Scotland, I want a STABLE independent Scotland, not just voting yes for the hell of it. I hate the current Conservative-LibDem government as much as the next Scot, especially considering (iirc) there wasn't a single constituency in Scotland that voted them in (not that Labour, my usual choice, would be any better, Ed Milliband is the most spineless and weak canditate for Prime Minister I've seen in my 20 years on this earth). I hate the bedroom tax. I hate the things that they are doing to freedom on the internet which is in my opinion one of the most necessary things for a democratic country to have. I hate the current energy crisis (even though I work in the industry myself) where a lot of people are falling into fuel poverty and are having to choose between heating or eatin. It's all a big mess, but a single Yes vote wouldn't sort everything out. There are 3 main things I want to see WITH EVIDENCE from the Yes camp. How would we support the NHS? Everything from the No camp tells me that we wouldn't be able to keep the current system as we don't make nearly as much money from our industries as the Yes camp would like us to think. How would we support the amazing FREE education system we have? For those who don't know, Scots don't pay tuition fees for College or University, it is all paid for by the government, and the English and Welsh don't have that privilege. How would we support ourselves in terms of defence? I am forever against the illegal Iraq-Aghanistan war that Blair led us in to while he was rimming George W Bush, but an army is still important JUST in case shit does hit the fan. Until then, I'm voting Maybe.
I don't understand why there would be non-Scottish debating on this as it is our choice as a country whether we go independent or not, but as I have not made my choice yet I am still open to finding more about it. I am leaning more to the stay unified (even if I am not much of a fan of some of the English) as part of the just in case it fucks us over. p.s I honestly think we will go independent anyway, due to the fact that the minimum age to vote is going to be 16... p.s.s (offtopic) I have 69 posts now hehe.
The SNP's power policies are not sustainable. There's no way to focus on green energy while also ditching nuclear at this point in time. Alex Salmond also hasn't been very forthcoming about how our finances will work - e.g. which currency we will use. There's been a lot of disagreeing reports on how the oil and gas will be split. I'm very much for an independent Scotland, but I can't vote yes yet until these issues are clearer. I certainly won't vote no, though.
[QUOTE=Flapadar;42876162]The SNP's power policies are not sustainable. There's no way to focus on green energy while also ditching nuclear at this point in time. Alex Salmond also hasn't been very forthcoming about how our finances will work - e.g. which currency we will use. There's been a lot of disagreeing reports on how the oil and gas will be split. I'm very much for an independent Scotland, but I can't vote yes yet until these issues are clearer. I certainly won't vote no, though.[/QUOTE] After, if, we get independence, there will be elections to determine the layout of an Independent Scottish parliament. A vote for Yes is not a vote for SNP, it's a vote for self determination. I intend to vote Yes but I will quite happily vote for someone else once we go Independent. Someone willing to put up Nuclear power plants.
We aren't going to be able to replace oil and gas any time soon due to the way peoples homes are set up. Coal is the only thing we can do with replacing right now, and that can be done with either nuclear power or renewable energy, and we live in Scotland, which has huge potential for renewable energy. Scotland doesn't need to have lots more nuclear power plants.
Im all hopped up on Celtic pride, Im scottish, Irish, And maybe Welsh,But I homestly want to see the six celtic nations independant,
No, Alex Salmond is a bellend and Scotland would be even shitter without the help of the Union
Thing is, is that if the Union Flag changes it affects - Australia - British Government Territories - Hawaii - Some Canadian Provinces - New Zealand [editline]16th November 2013[/editline] [t]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OqWiIhqq47s/TyBTtbekP8I/AAAAAAAAAXo/lfeI9T4lclQ/s1600/jack+wo+scotland.jpg[/t] This is what happens if you remove Scotlands Flag from the Union Flag
Gross.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;42872880]400 years. The union has lasted as personal union since the 1600s. They used this flag when Stuart was raised as King of England, I think. And well, aside from the mutual relationship shared for the past 410 years or so, Scotland just isn't it's own country. It's like a state if anything, but it doesn't have anything to grasp onto except hollywood myths and stereotypes regarding it's culture. The language of "scots" is just mumbled english and if anything, the highlands deserve more autonomy than just the independence of a country that's an extension of northern england.[/QUOTE] Have you ever even been to Scotland? You are speaking complete shit.
I don't blame the scots for wanting out on the uk government. It along with the entire system is a total mess. That said scotland does seem to be doing pretty well with free healthcare and education. I like scotland being part of the uk, it would be a shame for them to leave.
[QUOTE=Native Hunter;42877646]Im all hopped up on Celtic pride, Im scottish, Irish, And maybe Welsh,But I homestly want to see the six celtic nations independant,[/QUOTE] This is why I vehemently oppose the current craze around independence. Salmond is the worst offender as well, seizing any opportunity to take childish jabs at the English oppressors. [editline]16th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Flapadar;42876162]The SNP's power policies are not sustainable. There's no way to focus on green energy while also ditching nuclear at this point in time. Alex Salmond also hasn't been very forthcoming about how our finances will work - e.g. which currency we will use. There's been a lot of disagreeing reports on how the oil and gas will be split. I'm very much for an independent Scotland, but I can't vote yes yet until these issues are clearer. I certainly won't vote no, though.[/QUOTE] I haven't seen any coherent economic figures released by the SNP and their main economic plan seems revolve around a mix of green energy and North Sea oil.
You can leave as long as you take the massive debt of the Scottish Banks.
[QUOTE=Flapadar;42876162]The SNP's power policies are not sustainable. There's no way to focus on green energy while also ditching nuclear at this point in time. Alex Salmond also hasn't been very forthcoming about how our finances will work - e.g. which currency we will use. There's been a lot of disagreeing reports on how the oil and gas will be split. I'm very much for an independent Scotland, but I can't vote yes yet until these issues are clearer. I certainly won't vote no, though.[/QUOTE] It actually all really depends on what party gets voted in. But I know if the majority vote for Scottish independence it would be the SNPs who will be put in charge.
[QUOTE=Jonne Bravo;42881282]It actually all really depends on what party gets voted in. But I know if the majority vote for Scottish independence it would be the SNPs who will be put in charge.[/QUOTE] Yes - the exact way I'm seeing it. If independence gets a yes vote, SNP will have at least another term in power. If a no vote, they'll likely have another few terms on the sidelines.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;42879666]Thing is, is that if the Union Flag changes it affects This is what happens if you remove Scotlands Flag from the Union Flag[/QUOTE] Just put the welsh dragon on it, boom it's cool again
[QUOTE=Kirrimir;42880582]Have you ever even been to Scotland? You are speaking complete shit.[/QUOTE] I've been born and raised in Scotland, and honestly most "nationalism" is really a facade. I genuinely believe that half of the reason we got our own Parliament is because of that dreadful Braveheart film. Scotland has the same language as England, has benefited massively from the industrialization and growth of the British Empire (like all those Scottish civil servants in India), and still is heavily integrated on an economic, political, cultural, and social level with England. In fact I don't really see there being a separate "England" or "Scotland". It's just Britain.
Little bit offtopic, but If there's one movie that really needs a better remake, it's braveheart. I mean using a movie as a paragon of history might have been justifiable if the movie had been historically accurate and good, but the entire movie really butchered the true story (which by and large, is far more complex and captivating) And the costume design, jesus christ, how does one go from [URL="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/William_Wallace_statue,_Scottish_National_Portrait_Gallery,_Edinburgh.JPG"]this[/URL] to [URL="http://imagesci.com/img/2013/03/braveheart-13395-hd-wallpapers.jpg"]this[/URL]
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