• Some Republicans and conservative groups are starting to turn against the death penalty
    49 replies, posted
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/usa-executions-idUSL2N1730QP[/url] [quote]A former gun industry lobbyist and budget-hawk Republicans are leading what might seem to be an unlikely hard-right campaign - trying to sway conservatives in places like Utah and Kansas that they should be the first Republican-held state in four decades to ban the death penalty. The push from the political advocacy group Conservatives Concerned about the Death Penalty and lawmakers in places such as Nebraska would have been unthinkable a few years ago when it would have been conservative heresy to end capital punishment, a program seen as bedrock issue of the law-and-order policies embraced by the party. But those leading the campaign say the death penalty is a costly, inefficient and heavily bureaucratic program that runs counter to their core conservative values of limited government. "This is not an issue just for bleeding heart liberals. This is an issue that pragmatic conservatives are getting on board with," said Marc Hyden, a coordinator of Conservatives Concerned about the Death Penalty, a network of political and social conservatives who say capital punishment does not align with their values. Republican support for the death penalty remains strong at 76 percent in 2014, but that number is down from 85 percent in 1994, according to Gallup.[/quote]
good
Very nice too see more people stand up against murder.
They might have a better chance if they argue you can't trust the government to try people correctly.
The system was way too fucking expensive for it's own good. Even if it wasn't morally controversial it still was horribly inefficient.
[QUOTE=gastyne;50052791]Very nice too see more people stand up against murder.[/QUOTE] Well if you want to be technical about it, it's not murder. But agreed, good to see more people stand up against it.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50053045]Well if you want to be technical about it, it's not murder. But agreed, good to see more people stand up against it.[/QUOTE] Capital punishment is state sanctioned murder.
[QUOTE=gastyne;50053062]Capital punishment is state sanctioned murder.[/QUOTE] Taxes are state sanctioned extortions. Imprisonment is state sanctioned forced captivity.
This shouldn't be a thing simply because now and then you'll hear about some poor guy who was wrongly executed, whoops my bad just let me...oh
[QUOTE=Saxon;50053118]This shouldn't be a thing simply because now and then you'll hear about some poor guy who was wrongly executed, whoops my bad just let me...oh[/QUOTE] I guess we can always make up for getting the guilty person by sentencing the person who made the mistake to..
[QUOTE=KonorB;50053100]Taxes are state sanctioned extortions. Imprisonment is state sanctioned forced captivity.[/QUOTE] Taxes fund public investments which improve the lives of all. Imprisonment improves public safety by locking away dangerous individuals, and by providing sufficient deterrent to those wishing to commit crimes. Capital punishment fulfils revenge fantasies.
[QUOTE=Passing;50053152]I guess we can always make up for getting the guilty person by sentencing the person who made the mistake to..[/QUOTE] What if there wasn't a mistake though? What if the evidence that existed at the time did point to the guy but later more evidence came up that just proved it wasn't him? The point is you can't do anything to make up for the fact the justice system killed an innocent man and that the justice system isn't perfect, the best thing to do is prevention of these situations by abolishing the death penalty.
Oh it's about limited gubment not that being pro-life and pro-death penalty are two contradictory positions often held by the far right It always confuses me that they trot out fake science to defend that a petridish sized embryo is demonstratably human but when you put a human on a slab they bring out the religious arguments I know it's not nearly as black and white but arguing that abortion is murder then killing full grown people, even if they have done terrible crimes, is still very very late term abortion
[QUOTE=KonorB;50053100]Taxes are state sanctioned extortions. Imprisonment is state sanctioned forced captivity.[/QUOTE] When an innocent man is killed, it's murder not punishment.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50053491]When an innocent man is killed, it's murder not punishment.[/QUOTE] Yeah but this logic would also apply to punishments for other crimes as well. Forced community service on an innocent person is slavery, forced payment of restitution from an innocent person is thievery, imprisonment of an innocent person is kidnapping, etc. Of course the difference is that you can't make right on an unjust execution, which makes the consequences much more significant, but the government performing an act that's effectively the same as a crime is not at all limited to executions.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50053491]When an innocent man is killed, it's murder not punishment.[/QUOTE] When an innocent man is arrested, it's kidnapping, not punishment. When an innocent man is fined, it's theft, not punishment. Look I think the death penalty is awful as well, but this "executing someone is the same as murder!!!!" argument is [i]really[/i] dumb. There more than enough reasons to point to as to why the death penalty is bad already.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;50053519]Yeah but this logic would also apply to punishments for other crimes as well. Forced community service on an innocent person is slavery, forced payment of restitution from an innocent person is thievery, imprisonment of an innocent person is kidnapping, etc. Of course the difference is that you can't make right on an unjust execution, which makes the consequences much more significant, but the government performing an act that's effectively the same as a crime is not at all limited to executions.[/QUOTE] Except other punishments for the innocent can have reparations given to them. When a man is killed, there is nothing that can be done to change that. [editline]2nd April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Xubs;50053580]Not arguing in favor of the death penalty by any means, just saying I've always took some annoyance by calling death penalty 'murder'. This is gonna get incredibly pedantic, but... Murder is the [I]unlawful[/I] as well as [I]premeditated[/I] killing of another human being. The death penalty is, in states it is allowed in, legal. These are directly contradictory of each other, even in the case of an innocent man being killed. An innocent man being killed by the death penalty would be better described as a miscarriage of justice, as the law was exercising itself to the fullest extent of information available at the time. For capital punishment to truly be simultaneously murder as well as legal, one would have to prove somehow that the justice system acted deliberately in favor of the executed's death, regardless of evidence. Because of this, as long as the cogs of the law are turning as they should, capital punishment cannot be murder [I]even if[/I] an innocent man tragically ends up dying. It requires that extra step of premeditation, which I will admit as much as I hate the death penalty, I somehow doubt it's actually truly been rigged often enough that the capital punishment = murder equivalency would hold the majority required to make such a statement correct. You could perhaps argue natural law, but I don't think laws related to killing have a place in natural law, as many states do not agree on what constitutes legal and illegal killings. A better phrase would be to say that it is state-sponsored manslaughter, though I will agree it doesn't have the same ring to it. And, just to reiterate, I don't support the death penalty, I think it's barbaric. I just have never liked the murky implications behind that phrase.[/QUOTE] As far as I know, it's unlawful to kill an innocent man and execution is obviously premeditated as they know their sentence beforehand?
The problem with state sanctioned murder is that it is 100 % irreversible. And as long as the system is not 100 % flawless, it is completely unthinkable that the government should use this kind of barbaric method that is "capitol punishment".
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;50053211]Taxes fund public investments which improve the lives of all. [b]Imprisonment improves public safety by locking away dangerous individuals,[/b] and by providing sufficient deterrent to those wishing to commit crimes. Capital punishment fulfils revenge fantasies.[/QUOTE] And execution improves public safety much better by removing dangerous individuals so they can never be a danger again. [QUOTE=gastyne;50053841]The problem with state sanctioned murder is that it is 100 % irreversible. And as long as the system is not 100 % flawless, it is completely unthinkable that the government should use this kind of barbaric method that is "capitol punishment".[/QUOTE] Please explain how exactly is it barbaric.
[QUOTE=KonorB;50065440] Please explain how exactly is it barbaric.[/QUOTE] Because innocent people occasionally get executed. [editline]4th April 2016[/editline] There is little need for the death penalty when we have very secure prisons.
[QUOTE=KonorB;50065440]And execution improves public safety much better by removing dangerous individuals so they can never be a danger again.[/QUOTE] How is it much better? When someone is in prison they're not any more of a danger to society than if they were dead.
[QUOTE=KonorB;50065440]And execution improves public safety much better by removing dangerous individuals so they can never be a danger again. Please explain how exactly is it barbaric.[/QUOTE] You could also ensure that people never steal again by cutting off their hands, or preventing adultery by blinding and deafening the offending parties so that they must always be supervised by others, or prevent people who get themselves fired from being a drain on the state by herding them all up in death camps and killing them en masse, allowing their houses to be occupied by hard-working and obedient citizens. What exactly makes killing someone for murder any less 'barbaric' than cutting off their hand for theft?
[QUOTE=KonorB;50065440] Please explain how exactly is it barbaric.[/QUOTE] Murdering innocent people is barbaric. At least in my opinion, it's fine if you disagree.
What makes murdering people who we know to be 100% for sure guilty any less barbaric? You're still killing people either way.
[QUOTE=KonorB;50065440]Please explain how exactly is it barbaric.[/QUOTE] Because it's killing people. The justice system isn't there to fulfill revenge fantasies, it's there to remove dangerous people from the public, which can be done [i]without[/i] killing them.
[QUOTE=gastyne;50053062]Capital punishment is state sanctioned murder.[/QUOTE] And? [editline]5th April 2016[/editline] Innocents dying is never good although it's pretty fucking rare these days, and in the end I'd probably settle for some utilitarian and ethical argument/system, like putting all inmates to work no buts, allow them some benefits, even in high security and for lifetime inmates especially so.
[QUOTE=KonorB;50065440]And execution improves public safety much better by removing dangerous individuals so they can never be a danger again.[/QUOTE] Much better than what? Imprisoning them? If your prisons are so leaky that simply putting them in jail indefinitely isn't enough, then you make your prisons more secure, you don't start killing people so they don't get to escape.
This isn't some one sided issue when it comes to the death of innocent people. Do a very small number of innocent people receive the death penalty? Yes, they do. (Please don't bring up that 4% number. That's the number of people on death row, not the number killed.) But you need to look at the other side as well. Do murderers end up killing other innocent people either in prison or out of prison? Yes, they do. To just say that the death penalty kills innocent people ignores the innocent people killed by those not given the death penalty.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50069628]This isn't some one sided issue when it comes to the death of innocent people. Do a very small number of innocent people receive the death penalty? Yes, they do. (Please don't bring up that 4% number. That's the number of people on death row, not the number killed.) But you need to look at the other side as well. Do murderers end up killing other innocent people either in prison or out of prison? Yes, they do. To just say that the death penalty kills innocent people ignores the innocent people killed by those not given the death penalty.[/QUOTE] Except an innocent man thrown in jail can be released, an innocent man executed can't be undone A murder is a terrible thing but that doesn't mean we have to have an eye for an eye system
[QUOTE=Sableye;50069798]Except an innocent man thrown in jail can be released, an innocent man executed can't be undone A murder is a terrible thing but that doesn't mean we have to have an eye for an eye system[/QUOTE] A man murdered by a murderer who wasn't given the death penalty also can't be released. My point is simply that both choices will undoubtedly lead to innocent death.
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