• Steam purchases in the EU now refundable for 14 days
    41 replies, posted
[url]http://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-purchases-in-the-eu-now-refundable-for-14-days[/url]
Thank you Valve to finally complying with our law...
The whole oddly worded part about when the purchase is final is probably as soon as you start downloading the game. Since that is what the EU directive says. You have 14 days to withdraw the purchase or until you start downloading/streaming the content.
[QUOTE=MaGGiFiXXX;47346186]Thank you Valve to finally complying with our law...[/QUOTE] Yeah... They try to skirt our law for the longest time and then once they agree to it (assumingly so Valve Sàrl doesn't get in trouble), so many people I saw on another forum were praising them for it. Maybe Valve will grow a heart and offer it to regions where they have no legal requirement to, hahahahaha.
[QUOTE]Effectively what this means is that if you install the game, you lose your right to a refund.[/QUOTE] I'm not really sure if they even do that, at least here in Germany. When you buy a game on STEAM it says (in German, translated): "With this order, you have agreed that Valve gives you instant access to this digital content and that you waive any possibility to revoke this purchase." (That was at the end of 2014, not sure if the text changed.)
[QUOTE=Lord Fear;47346204]The whole oddly worded part about when the purchase is final is probably as soon as you start downloading the game. Since that is what the EU directive says. You have 14 days to withdraw the purchase or until you start downloading/streaming the content.[/QUOTE] Funny, because if you live in new zealand, you're allowed a refund if you think the product is not of acceptable quality Which means you can play the game :v: [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mitsuma;47346258] (That was at the end of 2014, not sure if the text changed.)[/QUOTE] Diffs [url]https://t.co/EWlNY45EHM[/url]
[QUOTE="STEAM"]By clicking "Buy" you agree that Valve immediately gives you access to these digital contents, without waiting for the fourteen-day withdrawal period. You waive your right of refund so expressly.[/QUOTE] Okay, they changed the text. [QUOTE=Scratch.;47346267][editline]18th March 2015[/editline] Diffs [url]https://t.co/EWlNY45EHM[/url][/QUOTE] I was talking about an extra sentence while buying the game. See my post and the one above.
The subscriber agreement revision has also introduced a clause that dictates Steam users reviewing games must disclose if they were paid for the review or not. nice probably won't stop them not disclosing it though
German gaming magazines are reporting that there is a prompt when buying games now that makes you withdraw from your right to return the game. [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] [quote]"By clicking "Purchase" you agree that Valve provides you immediate access to digital content as soon as you complete your purchase, without waiting the 14-day withdrawal period. Therefore, you expressly waive your right to withdraw from this purchase."[/quote]
Does this include Australia? [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] I am an idiot. [QUOTE=Killuah;47346356]German gaming magazines are reporting that there is a prompt when buying games now that makes you withdraw from your right to return the game. [editline]18th March 2015[/editline][/QUOTE] Wait, so this means I can't return games? Are you serious, this is bullshit.
Classic valve "Accept here that your game isnt covered by refund laws or buy games somewhere else lel" With their profits you'd think refunds should be a no brainer
So you can refund your purchase, but not if you complete the purchase? Yay :dance:
It's pretty dangerous to have no refunds when your game could just black screen upon starting and you've wasted whatever money you spent to buy it
[QUOTE=damnatus;47346682]Classic valve "Accept here that your game isnt covered by refund laws or buy games somewhere else lel" With their profits you'd think refunds should be a no brainer[/QUOTE] It's got nothing to do with Valve themselves, that's what the EU directive says they have to do, they're just complying with it now. [quote]i) Provision of digital content prior to expiry of the cancellation period. Possibly the most controversial requirement of the Directive is that [B]the provider must obtain the consumer’s express consent before making purchased digital content available to the consumer during the 14-day cancellation period by way of download or stream, together with an acknowledgement from the consumer that they will lose their cancellation right once they start to access the content.[/B] Providers have been concerned that such language may be intimidating to consumers and may lead to a negative effect on sales and conversion. The Guidance now explains that the consumer must take a “positive action” to provide its express consent and acknowledgement. The Guidance suggests using a tick-box on the provider’s website but clarifies that a pre-ticked box is likely not to be sufficient, nor would reference to the general terms and conditions. Nevertheless, the Guidance adds that the express consent and acknowledgment can be obtained at the same time (e.g. at the purchase page) and provides the following example wording: “[ ] I hereby consent to immediate performance of the contract and acknowledge that I will lose my right of withdrawal from the contract once the download or streaming of the digital content has begun”. Providers may be keen to use less intimidating language to achieve the same result, but in light of the seemingly inflexible interpretation of the Directive on this point, it is important to ensure that any replacement language still obtains both: (a) the express consent of the consumer; and (b) the consumer’s acknowledgement that they will lose their cancellation right by continuing. [/quote] [url]http://m.reedsmith.com/how-new-eu-guidance-on-the-consumer-rights-directive-will-impact-online-digital-content-providers-06-20-2014/[/url] It seems how it would normally work is you buy the product and then wait 14 days to actually get it during that point you can return it if you change your mind, as it hasn't been used yet. As you're getting it before the 14 days they have to tell you that, but you won't be able to return it. It means you get the product straight away without having to wait.
[QUOTE=nightlord;47346830] It seems how it would normally work is you buy the product and then wait 14 days to actually get it during that point you can return it if you change your mind, as it hasn't been used yet. As you're getting it before the 14 days they have to tell you that, but you won't be able to return it. It means you get the product straight away without having to wait.[/QUOTE] So it's like pre-ordering released games? Refund only if you haven't received it.
[QUOTE=damnatus;47346682]Classic valve "Accept here that your game isnt covered by refund laws or buy games somewhere else lel" With their profits you'd think refunds should be a no brainer[/QUOTE] Ah yes, how about Origin*: [quote] [URL="https://www.origin.com/en-gb/termsofsale"]Origin Terms of Sale[/URL] Residents in the European Union have the right to withdraw from a purchase of EA Content within 14 days without giving any reason. The withdrawal period will expire after 14 days from the day of conclusion of the purchase process, which is confirmed when we send you a purchase confirmation email.[/quote] Looking good, but oh wait: [quote]Important Notice: Please note that you will lose your right of withdrawal with respect to contracts for EA Content, which is digital content, where you have expressly consented to the performance of the digital content beginning immediately upon conclusion of the purchase process and have acknowledged that you will therefore lose your right to withdraw from the contract.[/quote] How about Ubisoft: [quote][URL="http://shop.ubi.com/store?Action=ContentTheme&Env=BASE&Locale=en_US&SiteID=ubina&pbPage=en_US-ReturnsAndCancellations#q1"]Ubisoft Return Policy[/URL] Exceptions: All sales on PSN, Mac and PC digital content are final. Video games, computer games, and merchandise may NOT be returned if opened, unsealed, washed, worn, or non-defective. These items may only be exchanged for the same item if it is available on the store or if the original is defective.[/quote] Or GMG: [quote][URL="http://www.greenmangaming.com/about/refund-policy/"]GMG Refund Policy[/URL] You will lose your right of withdrawal if you start downloading your product, or if the performance of our services has begun (such as if the Product activation key has been disclosed to you), before the end of the Cooling Off Period. Please note that if you purchase services from us, the performance of our services will begin immediately after you have received our purchase confirmation email. [/quote] Or GOG: [quote][URL="http://www.gog.com/support/policies/terms_of_use"]GOG Terms of Use[/URL] A sale is considered final either 30 days after purchase OR when you make a download attempt for a game or its bonus content. Once either of those happens, you no longer will have any return, exchange or refund options unless you have technical issues covered by the \"Technical issues\" paragraph above.[/quote] Or Humble Bundle: [quote][URL="https://www.humblebundle.com/terms"]Humble Bundle Terms[/URL] Refund Policy. Certain restrictions apply to sales of Products sold through the Service that might not otherwise apply to physical goods. Refunds will not necessarily be issued due to your dissatisfaction with the Product or if your computer does not meet the minimum Product requirements. If you feel you qualify for a refund please contact Customer Service at [EMAIL="contact@humblebundle.com"]contact@humblebundle.com[/EMAIL]. Refunds will be issued solely at Humble Bundle's discretion.[/quote] Oh... The only reason everyone focuses on Steam is because they're the biggest, but the fact of the matter is everyone does this. Now, to be fair, GOG has a clause with regards to refunding for games which do not function, which is more than can seemingly be said of the rest. *Before anyone brings up Origin's Great game guarantee: [quote]You may be eligible for a refund of purchases made on the Origin Store (Origin.com and purchases within the Origin gaming application) of [B]full game digital downloads (PC/Mac) published by "Electronic Arts"[/B] (collectively Electronic Arts Inc. if you reside in the United States, Canada or Japan and EA Swiss Sarl if you reside in any other country) or [B]participating third party titles[/B] designated as Great Game Guarantee eligible.[/quote] In other words; not every game sold through Origin is eligible. And you know what, Valve could be doing more to bring a more robust refund policy to Steam in much the same way they are pushing Linux support, or VR. But to single them out as if they are years behind other digital distributes in terms of refunds is incorrect.
As biggest they should be years ahead. The fact that Steam, the PC gaming giant, has refund policy as bad as all the small guys and practically zero support is just shameful.
This law doesn't work well for non physical items. Should you be able to return a game if you didn't like it? Should you be able to get your money back if you watch a movie you didn't like? I think there are cases where you should but it's difficult to prove your reason is valid. I thought if you gave valve a good reason they would refund it though. Even for physical items there are people buying expensive clothes to use at a party and then returning it after the party. This is called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardrobing]wardrobing[/url] and it's [url=http://www.clothingsecurity.net/but-is-it-illegal-wardrobing-retail.html]legal depending on the return policy[/url].
[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;47346964]This law doesn't work well for non physical items. Should you be able to return a game if you didn't like it? Should you be able to get your money back if you watch a movie you didn't like? I think there are cases where you should but it's difficult to prove your reason is valid. I thought if you gave valve a good reason they would refund it though. Even for physical items there are people buying expensive clothes to use at a party and then returning it after the party. This is called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardrobing]wardrobing[/url] and it's [url=http://www.clothingsecurity.net/but-is-it-illegal-wardrobing-retail.html]legal depending on the return policy[/url].[/QUOTE]If a game has no demo, you should be able to return it.
I think it'd be great if Valve could setup a return policy for their games, but I honestly can't think of a way for them to do it for the hundreds of developers/publishers on Steam without it all being a huge pain in the ass of money processing bullshit and legal mindfuckery. The best they could do is work out a policy with the big companies and then give the tools for indie developers to set a bunch of preset refund policies that would tie into their processing system somehow.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47347027]If a game has no demo, you should be able to return it.[/QUOTE] Games, to me, are exactly the same as movies; in an ideal world if the game doesn't work users should be entitled to a refund, in much the same way if the movie projector broke the customers there would be entitled to a refund. However, just as not liking a movie isn't grounds for a refund, nor should not liking a game be because both are art; how "good" they are is subjective. As such, I personally view it as my own responsibility to do research into a game I'm interested in through the avenues available (reviews, "let's plays", etc...) rather than jumping in and relying on a return policy. This applies doubly so because companies (understandably) don't tend to offer refunds for games that don't work due to "technical problems". Exceptions however should be made where there are very clearly large scale technical issues, like those which generally happen around the launch of a game. Also, demos can be more deceiving than anything else as they are short, and as such easy to craft in a manner which makes the game seem better than it is. Though not all demos are like this, of course. [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=DeandreT;47347304]I think it'd be great if Valve could setup a return policy for their games, but I honestly can't think of a way for them to do it for the hundreds of developers/publishers on Steam without it all being a huge pain in the ass of money processing bullshit and legal mindfuckery. The best they could do is work out a policy with the big companies and then give the tools for indie developers to set a bunch of preset refund policies that would tie into their processing system somehow.[/QUOTE] It would have to be an optional thing for games added to Steam going forward, and it would require (at least for games not relying on Steam for activation) cooperation between Valve and the Publisher/Developer to have an automated system in place. Though a good start would be something similar to Origin's great game guarantee for Valve games.
Okay so let me get this straight, even if the game is broken, you can't refund it since you agreed to their ToS which states that once you purchase the game, you will not be able to get the game? Or is it once you download? Can you still get a refund if it's broken, or since you downloaded the game, you are fucked? If so, that is bullshit and nothing was gained from the lawsuit.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47346962]As biggest they should be years ahead. The fact that Steam, the PC gaming giant, has refund policy as bad as all the small guys and practically zero support is just shameful.[/QUOTE] While I personally can't speak to its state, Steam's support is something that seems to need some work by all accounts. However, support is a very different issue from refund policy. We, the general public, don't know what challenges there are with allowing for a better return policy for Steam; we don't know what the contracts between Valve and Publishers allow for. We don't know what mechanisms are in place (that Valve has access to) for checking and revoking CD keys from Publishers. What we do know is it seems like no one wants to offer any real refund policy for titles outside of their direct control.
I don't like this skirting around the law Valve seem to be getting away with. We need to crack down harder on this sort of nonsense before too late.
[QUOTE=Xonax;47347368]Okay so let me get this straight, even if the game is broken, you can't refund it since you agreed to their ToS which states that once you purchase the game, you will not be able to get the game? Or is it once you download? Can you still get a refund if it's broken, or since you downloaded the game, you are fucked? If so, that is bullshit and nothing was gained from the lawsuit.[/QUOTE] It's my understanding that these changes don't apply to Australia, and the law suit is still ongoing.
[QUOTE=Xonax;47347368]Okay so let me get this straight, even if the game is broken, you can't refund it since you agreed to their ToS which states that once you purchase the game, you will not be able to get the game? Or is it once you download? Can you still get a refund if it's broken, or since you downloaded the game, you are fucked? If so, that is bullshit and nothing was gained from the lawsuit.[/QUOTE] It doesn't actually matter what the EULA says if we're being honest. Valve is legally obligated to give your money back if you request a refund within the 14 days if you're in the EU. If they contest it then you can threaten the law and they'll give you your money back.
[QUOTE=Ylsid;47347395]I don't like this skirting around the law Valve seem to be getting away with. We need to crack down harder on this sort of nonsense before too late.[/QUOTE] Except it isn't skirting around the law, as someone else [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456410&p=47346830&viewfull=1#post47346830]posted above[/url] these changes appear to comply with both the letter and the intent of the law. [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=DeandreT;47347414]It doesn't actually matter what the EULA says if we're being honest. Valve is legally obligated to give your money back if you request a refund within the 14 days if you're in the EU. If they contest it then you can threaten the law and they'll give you your money back.[/QUOTE] And lose. [quote][url=http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-marketing/files/crd_guidance_en.pdf]DG JUSTICE GUIDANCE DOCUMENT (page 65)[/url] Accordingly, the consumer would lose the right of withdrawal as soon as the performance of the contract has begun with his consent and acknowledgment of the loss of this right, such as at the start of the downloading or streaming of a video or audio file.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Ylsid;47347395]I don't like this skirting around the law Valve seem to be getting away with. We need to crack down harder on this sort of nonsense before too late.[/QUOTE] Except they haven't done that at all. This is Valve doing what the law for EU customers says they should. [QUOTE=DeandreT;47347414]It doesn't actually matter what the EULA says if we're being honest. Valve is legally obligated to give your money back if you request a refund within the 14 days if you're in the EU. If they contest it then you can threaten the law and they'll give you your money back.[/QUOTE] No, they aren't. This change is actually so they're now following EU law, they're doing exactly what it says they have to. They're complying with an EU directive that says they have to tell people if they are going to provide a digital product before the usual 14-day cancellation period, and that by doing so the product is no longer eligible to be returned (for the reason of "just because", faulty or broken products are a different thing). Normally you'd be allowed to buy a product and then you have 14 days to return it if you decide you just don't want it, but you can't return things that have been opened/used. Used in this case doesn't just mean played, if this was a physical game just opening or unsealing it would mean you wouldn't be able to return it anymore. [url]http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm[/url] [quote]Warning! Please note that you may not use goods that you have received before deciding to withdraw from the purchase. The right to withdraw exists to allow you to examine the product in the same way as you would in a shop, not to give you 14 days free use. Be aware also that more specific rules apply to digital content (e.g. downloading or streaming music or video).[/quote] [quote]Certain products excluded The 14-day “cooling off” period does not apply, among others, to: plane and train tickets as well as concert tickets and hotel bookings for specific dates food and drink delivered to you by regular delivery (such as delivery by a milkman). goods made to order or clearly personalised (e.g. a tailor-made suit) [B]sealed data carriers, such as DVDs, which you have unsealed upon receipt.[/B][/quote] [url]http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/buy-sell-online/rights-e-commerce/index_en.htm[/url] [quote] You also enjoy the right of withdrawal within 14 days from concluding the contract for online digital content. However,[B] once you start downloading or streaming the content you may no longer withdraw from the purchase[/B], provided that the trader has complied with his obligations. Specifically, [B]the trader must first obtain your explicit agreement to the immediate download or streaming[/B], and you must explicitly acknowledge that you lose your right to withdraw once the performance has started.[/quote] This is not something Valve have just decided they're going to do, they're doing what it says they should and this is something most other digital retailers already have in their terms.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47347433]Except it isn't skirting around the law, as someone else [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456410&p=47346830&viewfull=1#post47346830]posted above[/url] these changes appear to comply with both the letter and the intent of the law. [editline]18th March 2015[/editline] And lose.[/QUOTE] And win. I think you'll find in most countries you can't just waive your rights away in the purchase of a product.
[QUOTE=DeandreT;47347698]And win. I think you'll find in most countries you can't just waive your rights away in the purchase of a product.[/QUOTE] You aren't "waving away" any rights by purchasing a product. In the EU you have the right to return the product, assuming it hasn't been used. Downloading it counts as being used according to EU law. It seems it may be because you're having the game added to your account, presumably it's because it's pretty much the same as activating a serial key on your account. If this was GoG for example it would be as soon as you downloaded the game, as there is nothing to tie to your account directly.
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