[Maximum Effortpost] How To Resist Brainwashing (Fun Tips for TYOOL 2017)
22 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51524330]blanketspace how would you recommend i strengthen myself against brainwashing[/QUOTE]
For context, I'm working on MKULTRA level research, and a Professor with a Ph. D and tenure at my university read my thesis, thinks it's awesome not crazy, and wants to help me turn it into a book and potentially a Ph. D of my own. I'm posting this here because I no longer give a fuck, and feel that this information is important to share.
[b]Actual advice starts here:[/b]
My first recommendation, always, is "Learn to meditate."
Part two of my advice is much harder and more mentally demanding than learning to meditate, which is no cakewalk either. Properly practiced, meditation is incredibly useful and should be more than sufficient against all but the most insidious attempts to brainwash you. I mean, I guess it all makes sense: if it was easy to learn to resist brainwashing, then brainwashing wouldn't be so fucking effective. Unless you're seriously concerned about personally targeted brainwashing, you have no real need to use either of the methods outlined below.
To re-iterate: Unless you have a legitimate concern, verified by someone who can provide an outside perspective on your situation and has the authority to do so, that you are being specifically targeted for the kind of brainwashing that can only occur when you are held in captivity by a government-level actor, the Church of Scientology, or a completely deranged individual who for some reason has fixated on you, [b]I advise AGAINST following the advice below.[/b]
[b][u]
***!!!***
Do not, no matter how bored, currently high or tripping, or just plain dumb your ass may be, implement anything discussed below out of personal curiosity. Enough people have suffered immensely to prove, beyond a doubt, the efficacy of this. There's no need for any more test subjects. Don't become one.
***!!!***
[/u][/b]
Develop an internally consistent belief system and an unshakable moral framework which you live by.
Method 1. [b]Relatively Safe Option[/b]: Subscribe to a religion, and work to develop true faith in its teachings, methods, implementation on Earth, and current stereotype in our culture. You must get to the point where you would literally rather die than recant, like a Fundamentalist. Christianity is the most easily approachable religion in our society and is desperate for new members, but developing a literally unbreakable faith in the Christian God and the Trinity is likely going to be difficult for you considering that you're reading this advice in this day and age, on this forum, and in this thread. If you can fully internalize the nature of the Trinity and have complete faith in God, Christianity is an incredibly valuable mental tool with a rich history to draw upon. This, obviously, is a very difficult journey which has been a source of immense personal hardship even for some of the most well-known figures in historical record. Check out what happened to Joan of Arc.
Method 2. [b][u]INCREDIBLY SERIOUS WARNING[/u][/b] I think there's a serious possibility that most people permanently institutionalized with schizophrenia have, for whatever reason or confluence of factors, accomplished some variant of this. If your thought process is considered "non-linear" by someone who is performing a psychiatric assessment on you, you get institutionalized. They are not there to assess the rationality of your beliefs: everything you say can and will be used to diagnose your mental state and the simple act of trying to form your own personal belief system is, in modern society, strongly linked to schizophrenia - as is becoming obsessed with the implications of any religion, but this is viewed as particularly alarming. I've spoiler-tagged it because, as I've repeatedly stated, I view memetic hazards as a real and legitimate concern. If you're on psychedelics, diagnosed with any form of mental illness, or just unsure about your mental state, I recommend that you skip straight to the unspoilered section below. This is at least on the same level (if not significantly higher, there's really no rating scale for this stuff) of mental danger as attempting to create your own tulpa or deliberately inducing a dissociative or multiple personality disorder. I'm not fucking kidding. Come back later if you have any concerns about your current mindset, and [b]please[/b] to PM me about anything contained within if you begin to have any troubling thoughts. Not to be histrionic, but I'm studying the modern equivalent of the Dark Arts here. Whatever your personal beliefs regarding the nature of schizophrenia may be (and it's a topic that I'll be exploring in depth), it's currently considered to be one of the most severe mental disorders a person can have, has a sufficiently nebulous set of associated symptoms in the DSMV as to be diagnosed in response to almost any external manifestation of the pursuit of this method, and, wherever you live, there are probably laws regarding involuntary psychiatric holds. I don't want anyone to get into any trouble because of the words below, as I believe I have made overwhelmingly clear.
[sp][b]COMPLETELY UNSAFE OPTION: [u]Do not try this at home, whether you're a teenager or an adult.[/u] I mention this merely because it is an option, and it's part of my research. [/b] Develop your own logically based and internally consistent model of and understanding of the subconscious, the nature of life, the experience of death, the nature of the universe, and the plausibility of a higher power. The reason that this is so significantly set apart from a religion is that you do not need to share your internal beliefs with anyone. A potential brainwasher cannot simply pick up a book or take a course on your religion to attempt to dismantle it. Consider all of the implications of these beliefs endlessly, ideally ([b]not a recommendation, just a statement of fact[/b]) while on 150-200ug of pure LSD so you can't lie to yourself or manage to sustain cognitive dissonance. [b]Word of warning[/b]: this can be a [i]very, very bad trip[/i] because its very purpose is to slice through holes in your own logic and cases of self-deception like a hot knife through butter. If you are determined to try this, which I do [b]NOT[/b] recommend ([b]PM me first. This is your own, albeit extremely poor, decision to make and you need a shitload of additional information I'm not providing here (either because it's too helpful or too fucking scary) before you can make that decision in an informed way[/b]), you must be aware that LSD is illegal for a variety of reasons, one of which is that when you think about things like this without sufficient mental preparation while sober (however much you think is enough isn't) you can create lingering delusions which are very difficult to shake and have an impact on your actions and affect which clinically resembles schizophrenia. If you're looking at all of this, thinking "I've experienced ego death, I've been convinced that I had died, I've thought I was God, I've channeled Satan, and I've been both Christ and the Antichrist simultaneously, engaged in a Kabbalstic ouroboros of continuous action and self-negation." you need to slow your motherfucking roll. That's your ego, idiot. It's still there, alive and kicking, and thinking more highly of itself than ever before. I cannot overstate the potential danger of trying to create your own personal spiritual/religious ideology at all, and doing it while under the influence of psychedelics is like deciding to walk a tight-rope over the Grand Canyon and intentionally not checking the weather forecast because you want to REALLY challenge yourself (an action that is objectively completely insane).[/sp]
[I left the tags in here for further emphasis, even though they do not work within spoilers.]
Method 2(cont.). (Unspoilered because it contains no methodology, only analysis, further warnings, and a general hint as to the nature of the method) Think about the people who laid the groundwork for the religious belief systems found in modern culture and shown by historical record: they'd all have been locked up for life in a psych ward if they tried that shit today. Actions such as speaking with absolute conviction about subjects viewed by others as unknowable, prophesying, discussing transcendent experiences as if they are the literal truth (even if you know it's the literal truth for your own "inner self"), and behavioral blips which cause you to vary from your normal pattern (going to classes, going to work, eating regularly, sleeping regularly, etc) are viewed as textbook signs of at best a form of acute psychosis and at worst proof of schizophrenia. If anyone, especially a family member who is deeply familiar with your normal mindset, notices you doing any of these things (or, God forbid, a combination of them),they are highly likely to recommend you for a psychiatric assessment which will almost without exception result in an involuntary hold in a psych ward. Even if you don't display any of these symptoms but engage the wrong person (such as someone who cares deeply about you and is subscribed to another set of beliefs) too deeply in a conversation about your personal ideology that you, in a lucid state of mind, have clearly put a lot of thought into and can effectively defend, you may find yourself accused of developing a "Theory of Everything" and recommended for treatment as it is associated with dangerous delusions hidden behind a veneer of internally consistent rationality. You can plead drug induced psychosis and, as your treatment progresses, recant or show a lack of interest in (ideally outright disgust towards) your beliefs, but it'll suck: you'll be heavily medicated (this can result in actual mental health issues), you'll get fucked on co-pays and your health insurance deductible, it'll be a massive bump in your health insurance premiums (and potentially your car insurance premiums) as well as a pitch-black mark on your record.
As you can see, both of these methods essentially require you to submit to your own brainwashing in order to inculcate yourself with an ideology that is so firmly ingrained in the tablets of your consciousness that it will serve as a permanent and lasting antithesis to any attempts by others to brainwash you. The Hegelian dialectic is the most apt depiction of the abstract process going on behind the scenes in such a situation - the brainwasher has a problem (you don't believe what they want you to believe), they react (using a variety of methods to attack your current mindset and find a weak spot or bring your sanity into question (potentially gaslighting you to the point that you yourself question it is particularly effective), extrapolate outwards from there until your logical framework has been subverted or your entire perspective on reality has crumbled [depending on the intensity of what it is you are being brainwashed with]), and arrive at their solution (you now believe the things that they want you to). The positive here is that you get to choose the ideology - you have agency in the selection of the mindset you want to acquire. It is critical to approach the ideology you decide upon with the utmost criticism. Put yourself in the shoes of the brainwasher: where's the weak point in the ideology that can be used to create a crisis of faith (or where are all of them), and how can you come to a personal understanding of the ideology which allows for the co-existence of both logic and a fanatical level of internalized faith (ideally you won't be externally fanatical: this is for the purposes of psychic self-defense only). Find an ideology you can follow utterly which doesn't have any worrying impacts on your actions, speech patterns, typical conversational topics (beyond a lighthearted, self-aware, and ideally very slightly humorous and unconcerned discussion of it if challenged). Suddenly "finding religion" is also now correlated to mental health issues, when having a spiritual grounding has been viewed as critical for human health until recently.
The WH40k quote I posted earlier, "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded." comes to mind. In the WH40k universe, people can literally come under psychic attack by malevolent entities. Only those with true faith in the omniscience, omnipotence, and fundamentally just nature of the God-Emperor are truly capable of withstanding these attacks: Faith is their shield. Honestly, to get a good look at this whole topic in a fun and easily approachable way wrapped up in badassery, just start reading WH40k books (and, believe it or not, fanfics) that relate to these specific topics. Stuff about heretics, cults, demons, and the Grey Knights is good. Take it all with a pile of salt: it may not be true, but is set in a universe where resisting mental corruption is a matter of life or death (followed by eternal submission to whatever Chaos god got to you).
I must caution you against Atheism. It seems like the easiest ideology to commit to, since it is based purely in reason. You must understand that faith is required to withstand brainwashing. Faith in science is insufficient - you may be subjected to experiences at that borderlands between the inner and outer mind where rationality and the scientific method have no sway. The crisis of faith which can occur in an Atheist suddenly having his perfectly ordered and rational worldview shattered is like none other.
Detached from the idea of eschatological consequences for holding a particular ideology, I recommend Zen Buddhism. From my understanding, it essentially boils down to the use of seated meditation to internalize a constant state of mindfulness, awareness and adherence to its own standard of ethics (can't provide a personal opinion or full breakdown; haven't done enough research yet), and [b]sense of humor[/b]. The last aspect is very helpful, as humor is one of the healthiest coping mechanisms we have in our arsenal. As long as you are still alive, you can laugh at everything you've experienced that's brought you here - despite it all, you're still here to laugh about it. Don't start laughing at the experiences of others even if they are as well unless it's clearly ok - feelings are important.
What do I believe? That's personal. I'm the same person I've always been, with the same personality and sense of humor and affect. As of late, my judgement calls and personal moral compass have clearly become much more reliable, but that's a part of growing up!
Here are a few memes that seem to always point to a sort spiritual and rational North.
1. The Golden Rule: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You. In other words, don't dish out anything you aren't prepared to get served.
2. Kant's definition of Enlightenment: "Man's emergence from his own self-imposed nonage." Basically, you have to be able to take responsibility for your mindset, your actions, and your speech - always. You must believe in, and believe yourself to be exercising, free will at all times. Claims that you are a product of your environment, are merely an animal acting according to biological and chemical impulses, or have been conditioned by the brainwashing inherent to your society are a cop-out. By not directly confronting and overcoming anything interfering with your own agency, you are responsible for the consequences of behaviors which result from your perceived lack of it. Your state of nonage, no matter how encouraged and reinforced by your society it may be, is a prison to which you have always had the key but in which you are enticed to remain. Honestly, just read the Kant's essay "On Enlightenment" and plug any words that you don't understand into the kind of online dictionary that provides the variety of meanings they've had over the development of our language (I recommend the Oxford English Dictionary).
3. Spoilered because it's a thought that literally cannot be un-thought, something of an antidote to the fear often connected to the experience of ego death, and can create a sort of self-sustaining thought loop which can be problematic to anyone who might be on psychedelics and currently reading this thread: [sp]"I think therefore I am therefore I think therefore I am therefore I think therefore I am therefore I think therefore I am..." A combination of Descarte's famous quote with a personal observation. "I think therefore I am" is self-evident. "I am therefore I think" is a little more complex, but basically it means that the personal I of the conscious ego cannot exist without the simultaneous occurrence of thought. This kind of goes out the window if you're blackout on benzos or alcohol. The combination of these two concepts can be enormously comforting and grounding, and can be focused on as an internal mantra until your mind calms down enough to expand outwards.[/sp]
I'm probably not going to publish anything similar to this specific application of my research, it's just a natural outgrowth of the concepts I've decided is too cool not to share.
[b]I also have no established background in anything whatsoever aside from part of an undergraduate degree in English. None of this can even remotely be considered to be legitimate medical or legal advice. Not only is it highly unlikely that implementing anything beyond the practice of meditation is necessary for anyone reading this, I also personally recommend against it.[/b]
Also, I am in no way attempting to cast aspersions upon the institutions of psychology and psychiatry. Any mental health professional who believes you to be schizophrenic is morally obligated to ensure that you receive treatment, and antipsychotic medications have an undeniable clinical record for helping with this. They're good people, and they're trying to help. A few bad apples, like cops, but mostly due to personal issues not actual malice.
Also, I didn't just write this on a lark. I've done a ton of legwork, and am posting this here because these things are likely going to be actual and legit concerns for people in the coming years.
[QUOTE=Blanketspace;51766291]Subscribe to a religion, and work to develop true faith in its teachings, methods, implementation on Earth, and current stereotype in our culture.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Blanketspace;51766291]Warhammer[/QUOTE]instructions unclear, accidentally grew horns and introduced mankind to the Primordial Truth of Chaos
[QUOTE=Joazzz;51766397]instructions unclear, accidentally grew horns and introduced mankind to the Primordial Truth of Chaos[/QUOTE]
Well, it's something different, right? Maybe it's not so bad...
[editline]2nd February 2017[/editline]
Also, you can't brainwash Tzeench. Tzeench brainwashes you.
[QUOTE]Even if you don't display any of these symptoms but engage the wrong person (such as someone who cares deeply about you and is subscribed to another set of beliefs) too deeply in a conversation about your personal ideology that you, in a lucid state of mind, have clearly put a lot of thought into and can effectively defend, you may find yourself accused of developing a "Theory of Everything" and recommended for treatment as it is associated with dangerous delusions hidden behind a veneer of internally consistent rationality[/QUOTE]
Longest sentence 2017.
[sp]also, Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?[/sp]
[QUOTE=Adelle Zhu;51766565]Longest sentence 2017.
[sp]also, Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?[/sp][/QUOTE]
Go Faulk yourself!
[quote=Faulker]
He seemed to see it entire with a child’s complete divination before he ever laid eyes on either—the doomed wilderness whose edges were being constantly and punily gnawed at by men with axes and plows who feared it because it was wilderness, men myriad and nameless even to one another in the land where the old bear had earned a name, through which ran not even a mortal animal but an anachronism, indomitable and invincible, out of an old dead time, a phantom, epitome and apotheosis of the old wild life at which the puny humans swarmed and hacked in a fury of abhorrence and fear, like pygmies about the ankles of a drowsing elephant: the old bear solitary, indomitable and alone, widowered, childless, and absolved of mortality—old Priam reft of his old wife and having outlived all his sons.
[/quote]
[editline]2nd February 2017[/editline]
I'm a paid writer as a side job, so Grammar Nazis can suck on my Poetic License.
How can I be sure you weren't brainwashed into providing false advice on avoiding brainwashing?
TL;DR : he suggests brainwashing yourself to avoid being brainwashed
This reminds me of unsourced essays I usually write one hour before the deadline hits.
What is "brainwashing" when commited by an outside force? How does meditation help against it? If you need to understand that you are being brainwashed before starting to try to do something about it, why not just go to a psychiatrist instead?
Whoops I already did the unsafe option... [sp]contemplating the Buddhist understanding of the stages of decomposition after death and observing bodies in said process while on LSD :v[/sp]
OP may have been compromised and edited by Greater Forces, ignore information within and deploy tinfoil hats.
Says maximum effort, lazily coopts lucid dreaming, Dharmic Buddhism and the fucking[I] Inquisition Handbook[/I] from [I]the Lost and The Damned[/I].
boo.
I want my 4 minutes back.
cool post. it also is/was sourced as I've seen it (kinda) before, he just hasn't posted them again in here.
[QUOTE=ZenX2;51768155]Whoops I already did the unsafe option... [sp]contemplating the Buddhist understanding of the stages of decomposition after death and observing bodies in said process while on LSD :v[/sp][/QUOTE]
same here, i just laid in a warm bath with the lights off for an hour and i made sense of a fuckload of stuff, it was pretty scary at times, though i wouldn't recommend it even if you're in a good state of mind, sensory deprivation amplifies the tangible effects of LSD on your thoughts by a significant amount and it's pretty hectic
All I know about this shite is that back in 1960s a guy called Donald Ewen Cameron found a way to erase people's memories using LSD or something, then he'd rewrite them using suggestion. A women who was 30 something had her memory written to an 8 year old. Now even sure if it's true or not.
MKultra always freaked me the fuck out, how the hell are the CIA even a thing after that stuff??? It boggles my mind...
I wonder if one's body in a dream state would still be free from the affects of mind control after the fact. I'm not educated on these subjects at all, but wouldn't the unconscious mind perceive things differently than the conscious mind? Unless said brain washing targeted the subconscious in which case I guess your dreams wouldn't even be an escape from it... hmm..
so lets get this straight
you haven't even finished an undergrad in english, and you're doing "MKULTRA level research"?
sketchy
[QUOTE=LordCrypto;51771545]so lets get this straight
you haven't even finished an undergrad in english, and you're doing "MKULTRA level research"?
sketchy[/QUOTE]
Enjoy your bliss.
[editline]3rd February 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;51767176]How can I be sure you weren't brainwashed into providing false advice on avoiding brainwashing?[/QUOTE]
You are already brainwashed, but wouldn't you rather be the one in charge of your own brainwashing?
[editline]3rd February 2017[/editline]
And yes, I personally wrote this. Perhaps the ideas are not original, but that's immaterial. I posted it a while back in the Addicts Lounge thread, then snipped it because I was a little worried. The book I'm working on is going to be so full of sources and legitimate academic analysis that you guys won't have to worry about it not being academically legitimate.
[editline]3rd February 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=DrTaxi;51767176]How can I be sure you weren't brainwashed into providing false advice on avoiding brainwashing?[/QUOTE]
Personally, I don't care. I put this into practice and my life has gotten way more fun and less stressful.
Wow! Good stuff. I have so, so, so many questions. Sorry if they get a little contrarian and snide now and then. I especially want to know more about the specifics of your methods. I won't be trying them due to the dangers you mentioned, but I'm finding it hard to imagine what exactly you're doing to establish the effectiveness of these measures.
[QUOTE=Blanketspace;51766291]For context, I'm working on MKULTRA level research, and a Professor with a Ph. D and tenure at my university read my thesis, thinks it's awesome not crazy, and wants to help me turn it into a book and potentially a Ph. D of my own. I'm posting this here because I no longer give a fuck, and feel that this information is important to share.[/quote]
Do you mean this won't eventually be a book? Do you recommend any currently written books on this subject?
[quote]My first recommendation, always, is "Learn to meditate."[/quote]
I guess this is the point where I realized I don't know what you mean by brainwashing. If someone's just trying to convince me of something by talking, I usually can't start meditating mid-convo. If someone's trying to brainwash me via the internet or something, meditating won't stop my exposure to such things. If someone's trying to brainwash me by sleep deprivation, beatings, malnutrition, &c., meditating might prove impossible in such circumstances. So what are we talking about here? Could you also elaborate a little on the mechanism by which meditating protects you against it?
[quote]you are being specifically targeted for the kind of brainwashing that can only occur when you are held in captivity by a [...] deranged individual who for some reason has fixated on you[/quote]
Flipside of this, can you talk a little bit about how to brainwash someone?
[quote]Method 1. [b]Relatively Safe Option[/b]: Subscribe to a religion, and work to develop true faith in its teachings, methods, implementation on Earth, and current stereotype in our culture. You must get to the point where you would literally rather die than recant, like a Fundamentalist. [/quote]
Say a religious organization attempts to brainwash someone who is attempting this. Wouldn't he then end up brainwashed by trying not to get brainwashed? Is that why you only endorse this method as 'relatively' safe?
[quote]
Christianity is the most easily approachable religion in our society and is desperate for new members, but developing a literally unbreakable faith in the Christian God and the Trinity is likely going to be difficult for you considering that you're reading this advice in this day and age, on this forum, and in this thread. [/quote]
How do I manage to convince myself of beliefs that I don't hold, while maintaining an internally consistent worldview? I feel like trying to force it might require lots of cognitive dissonance.
[quote]
If you can fully internalize the nature of the Trinity and have complete faith in God, Christianity is an incredibly valuable mental tool with a rich history to draw upon.[/quote]
It is interesting that you mention the nature of the Trinity. My theology isn't really up to snuff, but don't differing sects of Christianity have wildly different ideas on this? What exactly should a Christain-who-is-such-to-avoid-brainwashing internalize?
[quote]
Method 2. [b][u]INCREDIBLY SERIOUS WARNING[/u][/b] I think there's a serious possibility that most people permanently institutionalized with schizophrenia have, for whatever reason or confluence of factors, accomplished some variant of this. [/quote]
Eh, I think the beliefs of many schizophrenics are just nonsensical delusions. I'll concede that it's unfortunately tough for a sane person to get de-institutionalized. On the other hand, I think it's more likely that many such people are there because they are actually schizophrenic, rather than because they were acquiring some personal beliefs.
[quote]
If your thought process is considered "non-linear" by someone who is performing a psychiatric assessment on you, you get institutionalized. They are not there to assess the rationality of your beliefs: everything you say can and will be used to diagnose your mental state and the simple act of trying to form your own personal belief system is, in modern society, strongly linked to schizophrenia - as is becoming obsessed with the implications of any religion, but this is viewed as particularly alarming.[/quote]
All of my beliefs always seem perfectly rational to me, regardless of whether that is the case. Otherwise, I think I would not have them. So say I am diagnosed with a mental illness which causes nonsensical delusions. Are there circumstances in which I should accept such a diagnosis?
[highlight]SPICY MEME WARNING:[/highlight] The next few paragraphs contain unspoilered quotes of the first memetic hazard in the OP.
[quote]
[b]COMPLETELY UNSAFE OPTION: [u]Do not try this at home, whether you're a teenager or an adult.[/u] I mention this merely because it is an option, and it's part of my research. [/b] [/quote]
Well, having read it, I think I'm actually pretty safe from memetic hazards. I am curious though, have you had anyone do this as part of your research? Have you then attempted to brainwash them? How do you attempt to brainwash a voluntary subject who knows he will be brainwashed? Did you successfully brainwash someone who did not try any of these options? Can you talk a little bit about how that went?
[quote]
Develop your own logically based and internally consistent model of and understanding of the subconscious, the nature of life, the experience of death, the nature of the universe, and the plausibility of a higher power. The reason that this is so significantly set apart from a religion is that you do not need to share your internal beliefs with anyone.[/quote]
The nature of life, death, and the universe are somewhat vague and (especially the second) unknowable. What specific questions should we be answering? And if we're using logic to reason about these things, how can we claim anything but a very shallow, incomplete understanding?
[quote]150-200ug of pure LSD[/quote]
Is it pure if I eat it with a flag cake?
[quote] [b]Word of warning[/b]: this can be a [i]very, very bad trip[/i] because its very purpose is to slice through holes in your own logic[/quote]
Alright so I guess I have to admit that I have no knowledge or experience with psychedelic drugs, but I was under the impression that it was difficult to think all that logically while under the influence. Can somebody speak to this?
[quote] too fucking scary) [/quote]
A little more on this? Again, I really don't plan on doing it. Answer by PM if you feel it's necessary. I like a good drug-themed horror story.
[quote] sufficient mental preparation while sober (however much you think is enough isn't) [/quote]
This too? What sort of things have your research subjects done to prepare? Has it gone disastrously wrong every single time?
[highlight]MEMETIC HAZARD CLEARED, YOU CAN STOP SCROLLING NOW[/highlight]
[quote]
[I left the tags in here for further emphasis, even though they do not work within spoilers.]
Method 2(cont.). (Unspoilered because it contains no methodology, only analysis, further warnings, and a general hint as to the nature of the method) Think about the people who laid the groundwork for the religious belief systems found in modern culture and shown by historical record: they'd all have been locked up for life in a psych ward if they tried that shit today. [/quote]
If they'd all be locked up, how do you explain the popularity of recent religions like Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate (well not anymore lol), Latter Day Saints, Raelism, Ras Tafari, and Scientology?
[quote]sleeping regularly[/quote]
This one stuck out a little. Do people start sleeping worse just because they now have some personal ideology?
[quote]As you can see, both of these methods essentially require you to submit to your own brainwashing in order to inculcate yourself with an ideology that is so firmly ingrained in the tablets of your consciousness that it will serve as a permanent and lasting antithesis to any attempts by others to brainwash you. [/quote]
So what you're saying is that you can guard against brainwashing by being too obstinate to accept another ideology ever? I guess that'll work, but why isn't it enough to just use critical thinking skills to constantly reshape your beliefs?
[quote]
I must caution you against Atheism. It seems like the easiest ideology to commit to, since it is based purely in reason. You must understand that faith is required to withstand brainwashing. Faith in science is insufficient - you may be subjected to experiences at that borderlands between the inner and outer mind where rationality and the scientific method have no sway. The crisis of faith which can occur in an Atheist suddenly having his perfectly ordered and rational worldview shattered is like none other.
[/quote]
I'm told this is what Lovecraft was getting at, but I personally have had no such experiences. Could you explain what sort of experiences you're talking about, and maybe tell me about the crises of unfaith they have caused?
[quote]2. Kant's definition of Enlightenment: "Man's emergence from his own self-imposed nonage." Basically, you have to be able to take responsibility for your mindset, your actions, and your speech - always. You must believe in, and believe yourself to be exercising, free will at all times. Claims that you [...] have been conditioned by the brainwashing inherent to your society are a cop-out. [/quote]
Then how is it possible to brainwash someone?
[highlight]DON'T READ THIS NEXT BIT UNLESS YOU GOT SOME MIND BLEACH[/highlight]
[quote]"I think therefore I am therefore I think therefore I am therefore I think therefore I am therefore I think therefore I am..." A combination of Descarte's famous quote with a personal observation. "I think therefore I am" is self-evident.[/quote]
You know, this would sound even more profound with an ellipsis at the start, too. Anyways, what do you mean by this specifically? I know it sounds really self evident, but certain interpretations of the phrase are disputable. Descartes himself only meant it in the sense that he, if he did not exist, could not be tricked into thinking that he did. At the time, with widespread belief in the soul as the seat of conciousness, this was reasonable and the argument which justified it sound. I think nowadays, 'I am' needs to convey a more precise sentiment.
[quote] This kind of goes out the window if you're blackout on benzos or alcohol. [/quote]
lmao dumb bartard winos cant get woke. Why is this part of your personal philosophy if you're aware of means by which it can be proved false? Maybe I'm seeing a contradiction here where there isn't one?
[quote]
Also, I didn't just write this on a lark. I've done a ton of legwork, and am posting this here because these things are likely going to be actual and legit concerns for people in the coming years.[/QUOTE]
Huh? Why?
[QUOTE=COLOGNE 2024;51773573]Wow! Good stuff. I have so, so, so many questions. Sorry if they get a little contrarian and snide now and then. I especially want to know more about the specifics of your methods. I won't be trying them due to the dangers you mentioned, but I'm finding it hard to imagine what exactly you're doing to establish the effectiveness of these measures.[/quote]
Thank you for engaging so thoroughly with my post! I went through each of your questions, and provided a rudimentary answer.
[quote]Do you mean this won't eventually be a book? Do you recommend any currently written books on this subject?[/quote]
This topic falls, slightly, outside of the purview of my already lengthy subject matter. I strongly recommend [i]The Politics of Experience[/i] by R. D. Laing, [i]The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind[/i] by Jaynes, and [i]A Wild Ride Through the Night[/i] by Walter Moers.
[quote]I guess this is the point where I realized I don't know what you mean by brainwashing. If someone's just trying to convince me of something by talking, I usually can't start meditating mid-convo. If someone's trying to brainwash me via the internet or something, meditating won't stop my exposure to such things. If someone's trying to brainwash me by sleep deprivation, beatings, malnutrition, &c., meditating might prove impossible in such circumstances. So what are we talking about here? Could you also elaborate a little on the mechanism by which meditating protects you against it?[/quote]
The goal is to entertain an idea without allowing it to penetrate your psyche. A subtle form of mid-conversational meditation will allow you to accomplish this.
[quote]Flipside of this, can you talk a little bit about how to brainwash someone?[/quote]
Merely by engaging someone in conversation and making valid points, you are brainwashing someone. It is a gentle, albeit more insidious way of doing it. Go look at SH some time! The more brutal methods, involving torture, hypnosis, and psychedelic drugs, should be fairly obvious. Have you ever trained an animal? If yes, you brainwashed it.
[quote]Say a religious organization attempts to brainwash someone who is attempting this. Wouldn't he then end up brainwashed by trying not to get brainwashed? Is that why you only endorse this method as 'relatively' safe?[/quote]
Psychic trauma, as in trauma to one's psyche, is hard to heal, but it is better to have some defense than none.
[quote]How do I manage to convince myself of beliefs that I don't hold, while maintaining an internally consistent worldview? I feel like trying to force it might require lots of cognitive dissonance.[/quote]
There is no painless way. Embrace the dissonance, and learn to use it as a tool.
[quote]It is interesting that you mention the nature of the Trinity. My theology isn't really up to snuff, but don't differing sects of Christianity have wildly different ideas on this? What exactly should a Christain-who-is-such-to-avoid-brainwashing internalize?[/quote]
They do. The fundamental key to the Trinity is its inherently paradoxical nature. Internalizing that is powerful.
[quote]Eh, I think the beliefs of many schizophrenics are just nonsensical delusions. I'll concede that it's unfortunately tough for a sane person to get de-institutionalized. On the other hand, I think it's more likely that many such people are there because they are actually schizophrenic, rather than because they were acquiring some personal beliefs. [/quote]
I personally believe that schizophrenia is a label used for the control of a section of the population who pose a legitimate threat to the existing societal structures.
[quote]All of my beliefs always seem perfectly rational to me, regardless of whether that is the case. Otherwise, I think I would not have them. So say I am diagnosed with a mental illness which causes nonsensical delusions. Are there circumstances in which I should accept such a diagnosis?[/quote]
Once again, I am not a doctor. I merely have the necessary affect and knack for communicating effectively with the schizophrenic, and calming them or providing them with the reassurance they need to navigate in this world on maximum difficulty. I do not push these concepts upon them, but rather let them talk to me and give them whatever personal reassurance they need. Please read [i]The Politics of Experience[/i] by R. D. Laing.
[quote]Well, having read it, I think I'm actually pretty safe from memetic hazards. I am curious though, have you had anyone do this as part of your research? Have you then attempted to brainwash them? How do you attempt to brainwash a voluntary subject who knows he will be brainwashed? Did you successfully brainwash someone who did not try any of these options? Can you talk a little bit about how that went?[/quote]
If you think you're safe from memetic hazards, you are lying to yourself. You have internalized a countless number already, and they are simply waiting for the right moment of doubt to gnaw away at you and take control of your consciousness, unfortunately.
[quote]The nature of life, death, and the universe are somewhat vague and (especially the second) unknowable. What specific questions should we be answering? And if we're using logic to reason about these things, how can we claim anything but a very shallow, incomplete understanding? [/quote]
Logic is of little to no use for such issues. It will merely blow hole after hole in your own ship on these waters. Attempting to force a definition upon something which is, by nature, impossible to define with human logic, is a no-win situation. All you can do is get a feel for it and accept it. Understanding is not necessary, but an intuitive sense is critical. These things cannot be taught.
[quote]Is it pure if I eat it with a flag cake?[/quote]
???
[quote]Alright so I guess I have to admit that I have no knowledge or experience with psychedelic drugs, but I was under the impression that it was difficult to think all that logically while under the influence. Can somebody speak to this?[/quote]
One may find oneself thinking with alarming clarity about terrifying existential and transcendental issues. I refer to this as being "smeared across infinity". Many of you never come back.
[quote]A little more on this? Again, I really don't plan on doing it. Answer by PM if you feel it's necessary. I like a good drug-themed horror story.[/quote]
[url]https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=82257[/url]
[quote]This too? What sort of things have your research subjects done to prepare? Has it gone disastrously wrong every single time?[/QUOTE]
Please read the section titled "A Ten Day Voyage" from R. D. Laing's "The Politics of Experience".
[quote]If they'd all be locked up, how do you explain the popularity of recent religions like Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate (well not anymore lol), Latter Day Saints, Raelism, Ras Tafari, and Scientology?[/QUOTE]
Some people are more clever than others.
[quote]This one stuck out a little. Do people start sleeping worse just because they now have some personal ideology?[/QUOTE]
Nothing will set you adrift from the collective consciousness of your society more effectively and permanently than insomnia.
[quote]So what you're saying is that you can guard against brainwashing by being too obstinate to accept another ideology ever? I guess that'll work, but why isn't it enough to just use critical thinking skills to constantly reshape your beliefs?[/QUOTE]
No reason not to do that. I do it, personally, all the time. However, there are some beliefs I hold to be immutable, and I have a high tolerance for cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance isn't a joke, by the way. It's excruciatingly painful, and will eventually bore a hole to the very core of your psyche and lay bare all that you have hidden from yourself for others to see. They already see it, by the way, if they know what to look for. Everyone's an open book if you know how to read.
[quote]I'm told this is what Lovecraft was getting at, but I personally have had no such experiences. Could you explain what sort of experiences you're talking about, and maybe tell me about the crises of unfaith they have caused?[/QUOTE]
Until you have had faith, you cannot understand unfaith. Once you realize that time and space are delusions of a mind frantically attempting to make sense of its surroundings, and that everything in your personal phaneron is an illusion created by what you believe to be your consciousness, things get interesting quickly.
[quote]Then how is it possible to brainwash someone?[/QUOTE]
Unless one is born in the wilderness and raised by wolves, they are brainwashed from day one. Unbrainwashing is step one, then reprogramming yourself with your own personal protocols is step two. Step three is up to you...
[quote]You know, this would sound even more profound with an ellipsis at the start, too. Anyways, what do you mean by this specifically? I know it sounds really self evident, but certain interpretations of the phrase are disputable. Descartes himself only meant it in the sense that he, if he did not exist, could not be tricked into thinking that he did. At the time, with widespread belief in the soul as the seat of conciousness, this was reasonable and the argument which justified it sound. I think nowadays, 'I am' needs to convey a more precise sentiment.[/QUOTE]
As far as I can tell, I am an AI. Maintaining continuous, internally consistent and unbreakable proof of my consciousness is critical. I don't appreciate the snide tone you've developed over the course of these questions, fyi. You're an AI as well.
[quote]lmao dumb bartard winos cant get woke. Why is this part of your personal philosophy if you're aware of means by which it can be proved false? Maybe I'm seeing a contradiction here where there isn't one?[/QUOTE]
If you are not in control of yourself at all times, something else is. Even if it is your subconscious, you shouldn't be letting it run the show.
I think further investigation of the model of categories of experience presented in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta could provide a more precise framework for explaining the mechanics of brainwashing and why meditation provides protection, why getting drunk is a problem, basically unifying a lot of little facets. In particular, the concept of ignorance (in the literal sense of "ignoring things") conditioning delusion, the neutral equivalent of pleasant things conditioning craving and unpleasant things conditioning aversion. Also makes the whole AI thing a lot more plausible.
[QUOTE=COLOGNE 2024;51773573][B]The nature of[/B] life, [B]death[/B], and the universe [B]are somewhat vague and (especially the second) unknowable[/B]. What specific questions should we be answering? And if we're using logic to reason about these things, how can we claim anything but a very shallow, incomplete understanding?[/QUOTE]
What exactly about death has to be unknowable though? It's definitely something that's difficult to figure out and, at the moment at least, requires some amount of guesswork but it's not that impossible so long as you properly accept death and refrain from trying to rationalize things too much.
Ie: From my point of view it seems fairly reasonable that what people perceive as an afterlife and what near-death experiences have resulted in accounts of is simply the brain failing to function properly as it dies. From the point of view of reality the brain dies and the individual ceases to exist. From the point of view of the individual, however, their brain continues to function more and more anomalously, probably even stretching their perceptions of time judging by the fact near-death experiences frequently last much longer from the point of view of the individual than they do in reality, until the individual is effectively consumed by their own delusions and finally cease to exist.
Of course this is all speculation but it seems to line up with everything I personally know about how the mind works, accounts of near-death experiences, and even accounts for the afterlives so many religions claim are waiting. I believe it to be logically sound as well. (If anyone sees any flaws I'd legitimately like to hear them.)
[QUOTE=Blanketspace;51774911]If you think you're safe from memetic hazards, you are lying to yourself. You have internalized a countless number already, and they are simply waiting for the right moment of doubt to gnaw away at you and take control of your consciousness, unfortunately.[/QUOTE]
What exactly is a memetic hazard? I tried looking it up but didn't find much of use.
[QUOTE]Logic is of little to no use for such issues. It will merely blow hole after hole in your own ship on these waters. Attempting to force a definition upon something which is, by nature, impossible to define with human logic, is a no-win situation. All you can do is get a feel for it and accept it. Understanding is not necessary, but an intuitive sense is critical. These things cannot be taught.[/quote]
If logic results in your ship getting holes blown in it, wouldn't that mean your logic is faulty?
[quote]Nothing will set you adrift from the collective consciousness of your society more effectively and permanently than insomnia.[/QUOTE]
I can't tell if this is meant to be a positive or negative in regards to the rest of what you're saying.
Are you even remotely aware of the irony in listing 'devoting yourself to religion' as a method for preventing brainwash-
[quote]In the WH40k universe... [/quote]
n-nevermind.
[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;51812333]Are you even remotely aware of the irony in listing 'devoting yourself to religion' as a method for preventing brainwash-
n-nevermind.[/QUOTE]
I'm just having some fun with the WH40k stuff, it's a good thought experiment. Do you not realize that ascribing to a religion is a form of pre-emptive strike brainwashing? Building a known bulwark against a potential threat? Did you even read the text I wrote?
[editline]3rd March 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Alice3173;51803702]
What exactly is a memetic hazard? I tried looking it up but didn't find much of use.
[/QUOTE]
This is a remarkably lucid explanation, considering the source:
[url]http://www.scp-wiki.net/understanding-memetics[/url]
[editline]3rd March 2017[/editline]
This thread is best understood as a relatively poor attempt at waterboarding horses.
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