• Windows 3.1 system blamed for shutting down Paris airport during a period of dense fog last Saturday
    30 replies, posted
[url]http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/failed-windows-3-1-system-blamed-for-taking-out-paris-airport/[/url] [quote=Ars Technica/Peter Bright]Paris Orly airport had to close temporarily last Saturday after the failure of a system running Windows 3.1—yes, the operating system from 1992—left it unable to operate in fog. French satirical weekly Le Canard Enchaîné reported the failure, and Vice expanded on the claims. Orly uses a system called DECOR to communicate Runway Visual Range (RVR) information to pilots. In poor weather conditions—such as the fog the airport experienced on Saturday—this system is essential. Last Saturday it stopped working, and the airport struggled to figure out why. This use of ancient systems is apparently not unusual. Vice quotes Alexandre Fiacre, the secretary general of France's UNSA-IESSA air traffic controller union, as saying that "The tools used by Aéroports de Paris controllers run on four different operating systems, that are all between 10 and 20 years old," with Windows 3.1 being joined by Windows XP and unspecified UNIX systems.[/quote]
With the rapid automation of many aircraft, you would think air traffic control would pick up the pace that is on par with the planes.
Why don't they make some kind of super simple DOS-like OS that's used exclusively for industrial applications and will have continual support without updating very often
[QUOTE=BigJoeyLemons;49113871]Why don't they make some kind of super simple DOS-like OS that's used exclusively for industrial applications and will have continual support without updating very often[/QUOTE] it would be a huge target for malware
[QUOTE=butre;49114118]it would be a huge target for malware[/QUOTE] The simpler it is, the less there is to break. Not to mention isolating it from a network or making it on a network with some sort of protocol entirely foreign to non-experts.
[QUOTE=butre;49114118]it would be a huge target for malware[/QUOTE] i dont think most of this stuff is connected to the internet anyways so maybe that's not a huge concern also malware needs to be able to make changes to the system
[QUOTE=Porkychop~;49114133]i dont think most of this stuff is connected to the internet anyways so maybe that's not a huge concern also malware needs to be able to make changes to the system[/QUOTE] You'd be surprised. There have been reports of nuclear power plants that were inadvertently connected to the Internet because of poor network design. Also, as Stuxnet demonstrated, you don't need a direct connection to the Internet to do major damage - a single flash drive inserted into the wrong terminal can bring an entire network to its knees.
[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;49114416]You'd be surprised. There have been reports of nuclear power plants that were inadvertently connected to the Internet because of poor network design. Also, as Stuxnet demonstrated, you don't need a direct connection to the Internet to do major damage - a single flash drive inserted into the wrong terminal can bring an entire network to its knees.[/QUOTE] Still, the idea here is "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Plenty of nuclear power plants still run on decades old technology, because that stuff works for what it was designed to do. Where it becomes problematic is when there are no longer people who know how to fix stuff that is that old.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49114438]Still, the idea here is "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Plenty of nuclear power plants still run on decades old technology, because that stuff works for what it was designed to do. Where it becomes problematic is when there are no longer people who know how to fix stuff that is that old.[/QUOTE] I've tried telling people that for years and people called me insane regardless of people paying mad bank for Legacy System Operators.
[QUOTE=wickedplayer494;49113850][url]http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/failed-windows-3-1-system-blamed-for-taking-out-paris-airport/[/url][/QUOTE] How the hell does windows 3.1 stop working, that thing is near impossible to kill without setting fire to your computer.
My money it was less on the OS failing and more the hardware failing. Notice how they are cited for a poor maintenance record.
[QUOTE=MIPS;49114548]My money it was less on the OS failing and more the hardware failing. Notice how they are cited for a poor maintenance record.[/QUOTE] I'm sure its inside a room with decades of dust with a poster for windows 3.1 on the wall.
[QUOTE=MIPS;49114458]I've tried telling people that for years and people called me insane regardless of people paying mad bank for Legacy System Operators.[/QUOTE] didn't you have an sgi onyx though? that kind of thing is insane to own in this century for any reason other than it being sort of cool
[QUOTE=Cheshire_cat;49114416]You'd be surprised. There have been reports of nuclear power plants that were inadvertently connected to the Internet because of poor network design. Also, as Stuxnet demonstrated, you don't need a direct connection to the Internet to do major damage - a single flash drive inserted into the wrong terminal can bring an entire network to its knees.[/QUOTE] With proper network security and locking down of specific systems though that should be a non issue. Not saying that was actually happening here, but it's very doable.
Gatwick's on a newer version of windows! [IMG]https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12243375_10208159581766421_9120545207698427426_n.jpg?oh=db2ef963cf5c95d97143d093ff24d08d&oe=56B1231E[/IMG] [IMG]https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12249908_10208159581406412_5330808673865919137_n.jpg?oh=a2699948818e3f3daa887d7c3ab52d10&oe=56B8DDD6[/IMG] Took these coming home from Spain the other week.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49114438]Still, the idea here is "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Plenty of nuclear power plants still run on decades old technology, because that stuff works for what it was designed to do. Where it becomes problematic is when there are no longer people who know how to fix stuff that is that old.[/QUOTE] Or parts no longer made.
[QUOTE=coolgame8013;49113858]With the rapid automation of many aircraft, you would think air traffic control would pick up the pace that is on par with the planes.[/QUOTE] Err. Its dangerous to say that aircraft are rapidly becoming automated. The systems on aircraft are becoming more complex and safer, not more automated. Its an increasing fear that pilots are becoming too dependent on the aircraft systems and not on their own skills to fly the airplane. The less automation the pilot has in training, the better they're going to respond in an emergency where they dont have system to help them. Human factors still accounts for like 80%+ of all aircraft accidents. In the US the FAA already has plans to update ATC and air travel with [URL="https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/library/"]NextGen[/URL]. Within NextGen is [URL="https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/adsb"]ADS-B[/URL] which will give way better information to pilots in the cockpit while flying and increase efficiency. Additionally in NextGen is the [URL="https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/catmt/"]CATMT[/URL] for ATC. That will update all the ATC hardware and give controllers more information to work with in conjunction with ADS-B and make airports more efficient at getting planes on and off the ground. To give the easiest summer of ADS-B: All commercial aircraft in the US by 2020 must have it. Theres more rules, but not relevant to this discussion. You can watch this for more information. ADS-B is the best new technology happening today (imo) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KrwJpIsu9Q[/media]
Not that surprising. A lot of specialized machines use old hardware and software due to reliability and lack of benefits to upgrade. The community college I attended has an observatory telescope which relies on an IBM PS/2 running DOS.
I work at a one hour photo place and most of the printing machines run on Win95-era tech with burned CRT monitors. Also our registers run on some weird DOS program and the owner has tried to replace it, but it's become such a fundamental part of the network that it would be nearly impossible to update, plus there's so many specific quirks and elements of the software that can't be replicated in newer software. I suspect that these airports have the same problem, they built their whole system on top of early 90's technology without foreseeing its obsolescence.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;49117683]Err. Its dangerous to say that aircraft are rapidly becoming automated. The systems on aircraft are becoming more complex and safer, not more automated. Its an increasing fear that pilots are becoming too dependent on the aircraft systems and not on their own skills to fly the airplane. The less automation the pilot has in training, the better they're going to respond in an emergency where they dont have system to help them. Human factors still accounts for like 80%+ of all aircraft accidents. In the US the FAA already has plans to update ATC and air travel with [URL="https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/library/"]NextGen[/URL]. Within NextGen is [URL="https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/adsb"]ADS-B[/URL] which will give way better information to pilots in the cockpit while flying and increase efficiency. Additionally in NextGen is the [URL="https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/catmt/"]CATMT[/URL] for ATC. That will update all the ATC hardware and give controllers more information to work with in conjunction with ADS-B and make airports more efficient at getting planes on and off the ground. To give the easiest summer of ADS-B: All commercial aircraft in the US by 2020 must have it. Theres more rules, but not relevant to this discussion. You can watch this for more information. ADS-B is the best new technology happening today (imo) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KrwJpIsu9Q[/media][/QUOTE] ADS-B is cool because us regular Joe's can contribute to tracking. [url]https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/user/Cakebatyr[/url]
this is like suing the rain because rain was on your windshield while driving and you crashed
[QUOTE=Cakebatyr;49119911]ADS-B is cool because us regular Joe's can contribute to tracking. [url]https://flightaware.com/adsb/stats/user/Cakebatyr[/url][/QUOTE] I totally would inquire about getting a Flightradar24 box (and now that you mention it, whatever FlightAware has since apparently they do it too), but apartments. Can't be arsed to ask the management "hey, I want to do some ADS-B flight tracking, mind if I set some stuff up on the roof?". It's a damn shame too since it's literally along the approach path available to planes here, and there's also a MTS/Rogers HSPAP tower on the building just west of mine. Even if they did let me on the roof getting an internet feed up to there would be a bitch, especially if I were to run something all the way up from my place on the 2nd floor if I didn't want to get double charged for a dedicated second line, save for some person at Shaw saying "yeah I understand what you want to do" and just waiving 2nd line fees in the event that the stars aligned. Now that I'm looking...apparently you can feed stuff with an Android device. That seems like a good alternative, and it'd put my old GS4 to use.
[QUOTE=wickedplayer494;49119986]I totally would inquire about getting a Flightradar24 box (and now that you mention it, whatever FlightAware has since apparently they do it too), but apartments. Can't be arsed to ask the management "hey, I want to do some ADS-B flight tracking, mind if I set some stuff up on the roof?". It's a damn shame too since it's literally along the approach path available to planes here, and there's also a MTS/Rogers HSPAP tower on the building just west of mine. Even if they did let me on the roof getting an internet feed up to there would be a bitch, especially if I were to run something all the way up from my place on the 2nd floor if I didn't want to get double charged for a dedicated second line, save for some person at Shaw saying "yeah I understand what you want to do" and just waiving 2nd line fees in the event that the stars aligned. Now that I'm looking...apparently you can feed stuff with an Android device. That seems like a good alternative, and it'd put my old GS4 to use.[/QUOTE] Mine is made from a [url=http://www.amazon.com/RTL2832U-Low-Cost-Software-Compatible-Packages/dp/B00SXZDUAQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1447580672&sr=8-3]TV dongle[/url] and a raspberry pi and is sitting in my apartment's window. [t]https://dl2.pushbulletusercontent.com/A45gzyhDc5MgdQOi0vOTFke1JwmTLl0p/IMG_20150930_235022.jpg[/t] The white pole is the [url=http://www.balarad.net/]ADSB antenna[/url]. The yellow thing is a [url=http://www.antenna-theory.com/antennas/foldeddipole.php]Folded Dipole[/url] made out of a rigid tape measure for my [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System]AIS[/url] receiver.
[QUOTE=BandClassHAH;49114131]The simpler it is, the less there is to break. Not to mention isolating it from a network or making it on a network with some sort of protocol entirely foreign to non-experts.[/QUOTE] Security through obscurity is not security
[QUOTE=MIPS;49114458]I've tried telling people that for years and people called me insane regardless of people paying mad bank for Legacy System Operators.[/QUOTE] Dude they do it because it's necessary for those industrial applications. You just use old computers because you're a weirdo
[QUOTE=Asgard;49120547]Security through obscurity is not security[/QUOTE] Isn't it the case for the American Nuclear arsenal? Doesn't authentication and confirmation rely on 40 year-old machines needing floppy-disk "keys" iirc? They say the hardware is so specialized and unique it's part of the security.
[QUOTE=MIPS;49114458]I've tried telling people that for years and people called me insane regardless of people paying mad bank for Legacy System Operators.[/QUOTE] There's a posting in my local CL for an old IBM system operator, something from the 80s, 70k/year
[QUOTE=Eric95;49120776]Dude they do it because it's necessary for those industrial applications. You just use old computers because you're a weirdo[/QUOTE] That's missing the point. Even if he's a weirdo for doing it, it's a valuable skill to have so long as these systems are still being used.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;49114438]Still, the idea here is "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Plenty of nuclear power plants still run on decades old technology, because that stuff works for what it was designed to do. Where it becomes problematic is when there are no longer people who know how to fix stuff that is that old.[/QUOTE] Security by obsolescence (or obscurity), I think it's called. By using massively antiquated systems, the irony is that most people don't know how to properly hack/attack them.
[QUOTE=MIPS;49114548]My money it was less on the OS failing and more the hardware failing. Notice how they are cited for a poor maintenance record.[/QUOTE] Doesn't 3.1 support real-time applications too, unlike the newer Windows versions? If I'm not mistaken it still has cooperative multitasking instead of forcibly removing control from applications, which could be a reason it's still in use.
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