• European Union’s head of foreign affairs and security policy Federica Mogherini: “Political Islam” h
    44 replies, posted
[URL]http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2015/150625_07_en.htm[/URL] [IMG]http://anmnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/image.png[/IMG] [quote]"The idea of a clash between Islam and “the West” – a word in which everything is put together and confused – has misled our policies and our narratives. Islam holds a place in our Western societies. Islam belongs in Europe. It holds a place in Europe's history, in our culture, in our food and – what matters most – in Europe's present and future." "Some people are now trying to convince us that a Muslim cannot be a good European citizen, that more Muslims in Europe will be the end of Europe. These people are not just mistaken about Muslims: these people are mistaken about Europe, they have no clue what Europe and the European identity are." "The so-called Islamic State is putting forward an unprecedented attempt to pervert Islam for justifying a wicked political and strategic project. … Daʼesh is Islam's worst enemy in today's world. Its victims are first and foremost Muslim people. Islam is a victim itself." "I am not afraid to say that political Islam should be part of the picture. Religion plays a role in politics – not always for good, not always for bad. Religion can be part of the process. What makes the difference is whether the process is democratic or not."[/quote]
No. Fuck off. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("No content? Don't reply" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
Is this the same political Islam that would ban "blasphemy", ban women from having independence, and arrest people based on their sexuality?
No thanks [highlight](User was banned for this post ("No content? Don't reply" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
How about we don't have political any religion in politics?
[quote]"Some people are now trying to convince us that a Muslim cannot be a good European citizen, that more Muslims in Europe will be the end of Europe. [B]These people are not just mistaken about Muslims: these people are mistaken about Europe[/B], they have no clue what Europe and the European identity are." "[B]The so-called Islamic State is putting forward an unprecedented attempt to pervert Islam[/B] for justifying a wicked political and strategic project. … Daʼesh is Islam's worst enemy in today's world. [B]Its victims are first and foremost Muslim people. Islam is a victim itself.[/B]"[/quote] Well-said. Remarks could not come at a better time, or be more true. While the title is editorialized — she makes the distinction important that Islam has as much as a democratic-say as Judaism or Christianity when it comes to politics. While I think neither should play a role in democratic policy-making, to exclude only Islam — while including any other religions — indicates a failure. Like Christianity or Judaism, fundamentalist Islam has principles contradictory to human rights and as long as they are restricted to a "democratic" filter — there should be complaints addressing the political future of Christianity and Judaism equally — not Islam alone.
Good thing European Union head of foreign affairs is just a title without any actual power over any country whatsoever.
[QUOTE]They have no clue what Europe and the European identity are.[/QUOTE] Besides a history built off fighting against Islam.
[QUOTE=Vasili;48158041]Besides a history built off fighting against Islam.[/QUOTE] *A history built off invasions and massed killings of Muslims in the 11th and 12th centuries
And they wonder why regular citizens turn to nationalism.. [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48158096]*A history built off invasions and massed killings of Muslims in the 11th and 12th centuries[/QUOTE] And here you can see your average American showing off his knowledge to the world.
Good thing what she says doesn't matter worth shit, the stupid bimbo [highlight](User was banned for this post (""Bimbo"" - Starpluck))[/highlight] [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("trolling on alt, back to the cubes" - Orkel))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48157956]How about we don't have political any religion in politics?[/QUOTE] Practically impossible considering how important religion can be to a persons life and political view. Hell just look at all the christian democratic parties currently around in Europe.
[QUOTE=ThaBoss;48158154]Practically impossible considering how important religion can be to a persons life and political view. Hell just look at all the christian democratic parties currently around in Europe.[/QUOTE]A man can dream right?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48158096]*A history built off invasions and massed killings of Muslims in the 11th and 12th centuries[/QUOTE] And fighting the Moors, Ottomans and others who wanted to take Europe for Islam (partially did) and vise versa. The two religions of Europe and the Middle East have been very, very politically opposed to one another. So when Federica Mogherini the Russian shill says the two work, I say shes historically naive. Of course, it just all depends if the two religious identifies will go away in time, because I don't believe a Christian culture and Islamic culture can coexist - especially when the two have been at war with each-other for over a thousand years. Why do you think so many anti-muslim groups sport Templar's in their imaginary? It is the beliefthat Europe is built off Christendom - that it is fighting against the Islamic invader.
[QUOTE=AlexDeviant;48158106] And here you can see your average American showing off his knowledge to the world.[/QUOTE] Alright, I know that you're trying to get under my skin but let me just get some real information to you. The "invasions" that the Muslims had against "Europe" were mainly the Umayyad conquests of Iberia, which were originally under the casus belli of seizing arable land, as the majority Berber invaders (sometimes referred to as Moors) were used to living in hilly or mountainous deserts, while Iberia had fertile land. Of course, when the Umayyad caliph was exiled, he took up the Berber banner and used religion as a means of garnering more support to annex more land. When fighting their way through Iberia, the Moors finally reached Tours (modern day France), where King Charles 'The Hammer' Martel defeated the invading Moorish army, essentially pushing the Moors back into Iberia. However, the kingdom of Al-Andalus was chock full of beautiful cities and centers for religious, technological and other academic studies. These cities housed Jews, Christians and Muslims, who were all treated fairly equally (Of course, the non-Muslim 'People of the Book' paid the Jizyah, or head tax). The only other major Muslim "invasion" of Europe was that of the Ottomans during their campaigns through the Balkans in the 1400s and up to the 1500s, stopping at the failed attempt at taking Vienna in late 1529-1530. The Ottomans were unable to progress into most of central Europe after that point, and already had majority Christian populations under their rule west of Istanbul/Kostantiniyye. One could argue that the Mongol invasions of eastern Europe were "Muslim" invasions, but the Mongols did not convert until already having seized huge amounts of land. In contrast, there have been dozens of Christian European invasions of majority Muslim lands. The Crusades are a fairly obvious start, as was the Reconquista, and then the seizure of Ottoman lands in North Africa, and then the colonization of Africa, the Middle East and South-East Asia of the 1800s into the 1900s, and then the carving up of the middle east after WW1. These invasions were largely bloody and ruthless, especially the Reconquista and Crusades, with the rise of such vicious groups as the Spanish Inquisition or the Knights Templar/Hospitaller. So yes. I do know a bit.
[QUOTE=Vasili;48158187]And fighting the Moors, Ottomans and others who wanted to take Europe for Islam (partially did) and vise versa. The two religions of Europe and the Middle East have been very, very politically opposed to one another. So when Federica Mogherini the Russian shill says the two work, I say shes historically naive. Of course, it just all depends if the two religious identifies will go away in time, because I don't believe a Christian culture and Islamic culture can coexist - especially when the two have been at war with each-other for over a thousand years. Why do you think so many anti-muslim groups sport Templar's in their imaginary? It is the beliefthat Europe is built off Christendom - that it is fighting against the Islamic invader.[/QUOTE] Except christians and muslims (and jews for that matter) have been co-existing in Anatolia, the Levant, the Caucasus and the Horn of Africa for centuries so obviously their cultures can co-exist in peace just fine.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48158096]*A history built off invasions and massed killings of Muslims in the 11th and 12th centuries[/QUOTE] Eh both sides did a fair bit of killing of each, north African and mediteranian Christians were wiped out by Islam, Spanish Muslims were killed by the inquisition, and Muslims all throughout the middle East by the crusaders. Going into the whole "he stabbed first" mentality is counterproductive. Muslim imigrants need to feel welcomed by their country, not marginalized, they need to be included in the discussions, educated on the acceptable customs, and allowed a degree of privacy granted to all religions in a secular society.
[QUOTE=ThaBoss;48158313]Except christians and muslims (and jews for that matter) have been co-existing in Anatolia, the Levant, the Caucasus and the Horn of Africa for centuries so obviously their cultures can co-exist in peace just fine.[/QUOTE] You're marginalized, treated as a second class citizens, and harassed unless you convert, Pretty much the definition of coexisting. Have you ever had a conversation with a Copt by any chance? Really eye opening stuff. [editline]9th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sableye;48158367]Muslim imigrants need to feel welcomed by their country, not marginalized, they need to be included in the discussions, educated on the acceptable customs, and allowed a degree of privacy granted to all religions in a secular society.[/QUOTE] The problems in Europe is that they're typically given that while they're shoving and kicking towards their host societies and being intolerant towards Western values and customs. Especially when it comes to little things like the equal status of women.
[quote]However, the kingdom of Al-Andalus was chock full of beautiful cities and centers for religious, technological and other academic studies. These cities housed Jews, Christians and Muslims, who were all treated fairly equally (Of course, the non-Muslim 'People of the Book' paid the Jizyah, or head tax).[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_C%C3%B3rdoba_(1013)[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre[/url] Treatment of Christians and Jews in Medieval Spain, like the treatment of Muslims and Jews in Christian Europe, varied widely. Tolerance and equality of religion was not a standard or even a widespread practice among Muslims in the Middle ages, and largely worked off from precedents set by Roman or Persian administrations when it came to ruling over people of different religions. Tolerance throughout history has mostly been a pragmatic measure by governments to prevent their populations rebelling too much. When demographic factors in Northern Africa and the Middle East had shifted decisively in favour of the Muslims (during the high middle ages), was when any pretense at tolerance was dropped - resulting in the expulsion of Jews, Christians, and the flaring up of intra-religious conflict.
In my view no politicised religion should be present. A party that is based upon a religion will always undermine liberal values and democracy through its delegation of decisions to old books and preferential treatment of their own religion.
If they're willing to assimilate to Western culture and ideals, fine. Otherwise, fuck off.
Well I know it certainly isn't fair to categorize all Muslims as bad citizens or whatever. In fact not long ago, I was curious as to what constitutes legal self-defense so I found this video online of this Arab (I think he was, no offense to him) who had very helpful advice about it. He was an instructor in it and such in fact I think. Can't remember his name though, but it goes to show you race or religion aside anyone can contribute to society. Sorry if this is off topic.
[QUOTE=TheNerdPest14;48158927]Well I know it certainly isn't fair to categorize all Muslims as bad citizens or whatever. In fact not long ago, I was curious as to what constitutes legal self-defense so I found this video online of this Arab (I think he was, no offense to him) who had very helpful advice about it. He was an instructor in it and such in fact I think. Can't remember his name though, but it goes to show you race or religion aside anyone can contribute to society. Sorry if this is off topic.[/QUOTE] When it comes to laws though Islam is quite unfit for modern world. Even the non-Sharia version is quite questionable.
Nah, I think we should just be secular
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48158946]When it comes to laws though Islam is quite unfit for modern world. Even the non-Sharia version is quite questionable.[/QUOTE] All religious laws are questionable. If you look at Christian law, or Judaic law — you will see the death penalty for even the most trivial of things. The notion that somehow all religions except "Islam" is OK displays that one could not be any more brazen in their ignorant prejudice.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;48158998]All religious laws are questionable. If you look at Christian law, or Judaic law — you will see the death penalty for even the most trivial of things. The notion that somehow all religions except "Islam" is OK displays that one could not be any more brazen in their ignorant prejudice.[/QUOTE] Then why have a place for any religion at all in politics?
We shouldn't have any kind of religion involved in politics in the first place. I'd vote against, that's for sure..
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48159004]Then why have a place for any religion at all in politics?[/QUOTE] We shouldn't.
[quote]"I am not afraid to say that political Islam should be part of the picture. Religion plays a role in politics – not always for good, not always for bad. Religion can be part of the process. What makes the difference is whether the process is democratic or not."[/quote] What a disgusting statement. I'm stunned that this person hold any position of power in any government, let alone the European Union.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;48158998]All religious laws are questionable. If you look at Christian law, or Judaic law — you will see the death penalty for even the most trivial of things. The notion that somehow all religions except "Islam" is OK displays that one could not be any more brazen in their ignorant prejudice.[/QUOTE] As I said, I don't want any religions to play any roles in legal system but for now that's a pipe dream so I just don't want any new ones added. Rather we should work to remove existing ones from politics.
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