• Four Metropolitan Police Officers stabbed in London
    121 replies, posted
[quote] Four police officers have been stabbed after being called to a disturbance in north-west London. Witnesses said a man had been chased by police in and out of shops before he fled into a butchers, grabbed a knife and attacked the officers. Two of the PCs were seriously hurt and one suffered a broken hand during Saturday's incident in Kingsbury Road. A 32-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder. Ch Supt Dalwardin Babu, the borough commander for Harrow, said one of the officers was stabbed in the stomach, a second suffered head injuries and a stab wound to the arm, the third officer was stabbed in the leg and the fourth officer, who was slashed, suffered a broken hand. 'Give me a chopper' All four are based in Harrow. The PC who was stabbed in the stomach is in his 20s and has been in the force for three years. The officer, who suffered head injuries and was stabbed in the arm, has been with the service for six years and was also in his 20s. The officer who was stabbed in the leg has been in the police for five years and is aged in his 30s. The PC, who suffered a broken hand, is in his 20s and has been in service for eight years. He has been released from hospital but the other three remain in hospital. The attacker demanded a "chopper" when he burst into Kingsbury Halal Butchers London Mayor Boris Johnson said: "This was an appalling attack on brave individuals who work tirelessly to protect our communities and keep our streets safe." Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe said: "It was shocking that on a hopefully quiet Saturday morning in a London residential area we had such a terrible incident. "It just shows the difficult job that police officers do." Mohammad Qasim, 51, owner of the Kingsbury Halal Butchers for 24 years, described how the attacker walked into the shop and demanded they hand over a knife. Mr Qasim said: "The man came quickly inside and said: 'Give me a chopper'. "The boys who work for me said: 'Why give you a chopper?'" Continue reading the main story “ Start Quote There were a lot of police after him” Ketan Vyas Shop manager He said the man then grabbed a 12in long knife. "After a few minutes police came in and tried to catch him and he stabbed one. "Everything was a mess and then police came and said 'go out'. "Everybody came out and police went in and took the guy." Shopkeeper Girish Modha, who owns a nearby sweet shop, described the events leading up to the stabbings. "A man was shouting at police in a small alleyway next to a hairdresser's shop which neighbours mine. "He grabbed a piece of fluorescent tubing and brandished it at police. "He then ran down Kingsbury Road, going into a cash-and-carry shop. At one point I think he threw a brick and smashed a police car window. A witness said he saw the man throw a brick at a police car "He then ran round the roundabout and carried on towards the Tube station. "He went into a butchers, got a knife and that's when the stabbing took place." The normally busy shopping street by Kingsbury Tube station remained cordoned off on Saturday afternoon. Ketan Vyas, the manager of a cash-and-carry store, VB and Sons, said a man in his 30s or 40s had burst into the shop chased by police. Mr Vyas said: "He picked up some cans of beans and threw them at the police and then carried on running out of the store and down the road. "There were a lot of police after him. He was only in here for a few seconds." 'Deeply upset' Describing the aftermath of the incident, a worker at a Carphone Warehouse shop opposite Kingsbury Halal Butchers said: "I saw about eight police officers on top of a man. "Ambulances arrived to take away the injured policemen and the man was also taken away." Barry Gardiner, MP for Brent North, who visited the area following the stabbings, said he was "deeply upset" and the mood in the area was "very sombre". Labour's mayoral candidate Ken Livingstone said: "We all know that knife crimes and stabbings are still a problem but even with that knowledge this attack is shocking." Commander Christine Jones, of the Metropolitan Police's territorial policing unit, said: "These officers put their lives on the line by confronting this man in what was an extremely violent and spontaneous situation. "The four officers have demonstrated outstanding bravery and this once again highlights the dangerous situations our officers deal with on a daily basis as they carry out their duties keeping Londoners safe." [/quote] Source:[url=BBC News] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15803860[/url] This is why I get annoyed when people brand police as "pigs" and the like, they put their life on the line here, and showed extreme bravery. They deserve a medal. Though it was about time someone posted a story showing the other side of police, that does not get enough coverage.
[quote] they put their life on the line here[/quote] I'm not too sure about this. How can you say they deserve special accolades for experiencing something that they are paid to do. Let's compare it to semi-analogous situation. We can usually agree that someone helping an old woman across the road is a good thing, right? Does it have the same moral weight if that person is being paid $20 per old lady, and has an old lady quota in order to pay the bills? An alternate view of this situation is that the police have terrible management practices considering the most experienced officer in this group of four was still in his 20s, and that the four of them were injured by one man either demonstrates that their training is lacking or this man is actually some kind of reincarnated ninja on PCP. The PCP-reincarnated-ninja theory might be more likely considering he broke one of the officers hands with [B]a knife.[/B]
[QUOTE=Contag;33354431]I'm not too sure about this. How can you say they deserve special accolades for experiencing something that they are paid to do.[/QUOTE] Because simply ignoring it like it were an everyday activity would not exactly boost morale or motivation. "Oh, you almost got killed eh? Meh, it happens."
British cops don't have hand guns, do they ?
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;33354751]British cops don't have hand guns, do they ?[/QUOTE] the ones in england or great britain don't the ones over here do. purely because of the troubles. every police officer SHOULD be carrying a weapon on duty
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;33354751]British cops don't have hand guns, do they ?[/QUOTE] No , only specialists such as MOD troops can carry firearms but that's usually either a G36 or an MP7A1. [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=XanaToast.;33354764] every police officer SHOULD be carrying a weapon on duty[/QUOTE] but it's completely unneccesary. The most anyone will ever have in the majority of the UK is a knife - and that can be solved with sprays which all officers carry.
British police do have teams licensed and trained to carry firearms, but they're usually called out in special circumstances, like suspected terrorist attacks. No idea what they carry, some sort of submachine gun or assault rifle.
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;33354806]British police do have teams licensed and trained to carry firearms, but they're usually called out in special circumstances, like suspected terrorist attacks. No idea what they carry, some sort of submachine gun or assault rifle.[/QUOTE] They'll usually carry an MP7A1 , but I've seen some carrying G36C's and a few SA80's
[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;33354751]British cops don't have hand guns, do they ?[/QUOTE] Only a very few special units, and they're pretty much used for guarding nuclear power plants, airports, some major train stations in London and Down[del]er[/del]ing Street. Oh, and the armed response teams. The ones that I've seen have had G36Cs and one with an MP5.
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;33354768] but it's completely unneccesary. The most anyone will ever have in the majority of the UK is a knife - and that can be solved with sprays which all officers carry.[/QUOTE] Really because this guy required at least 8 officers and put four in the hospital [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] I'm not saying there aren't downsides to regularly armed police officers, but it's clearly not as simple as "if they only have knives, it can be solved with chemical sprays"
[QUOTE=Contag;33354431]I'm not too sure about this. How can you say they deserve special accolades for experiencing something that they are paid to do. Let's compare it to semi-analogous situation. We can usually agree that someone helping an old woman across the road is a good thing, right? Does it have the same moral weight if that person is being paid $20 per old lady, and has an old lady quota in order to pay the bills? An alternate view of this situation is that the police have terrible management practices considering the most experienced officer in this group of four was still in his 20s, and that the four of them were injured by one man either demonstrates that their training is lacking or this man is actually some kind of reincarnated ninja on PCP. The PCP-reincarnated-ninja theory might be more likely considering he broke one of the officers hands with [B]a knife.[/B][/QUOTE] Bad management practice? He must have been around 28, 26 at the least, and I don't think it really matters at all here.. And I don't understand your logic... so we shouldn't give medals to soldiers for bravery because that's "their job". "Fuck giving him a Victoria Cross, we payed him to lose a leg saving civilians!". You've got to take into account the fact the man is wielding a 12 inch, very sharp butchers knife, sharp enough to cut through thick pig skin and the likes. Plus it's going to be a confined space with multiple people in there, I doubt a deficiency in their training had anything to do with the injuries. I know for a fact from my dad the police here have good personal combat training. Probably broke his hand because it was a huge fucking knife? As for firearms officers, there are quite a lot of tasers around (considered firearms) and there is always an armed response unit, in fast cars (sometimes a nice Mitsubishi or Subaru), around. Normally carry MP5s or MP7s for normal shifts, think they only use the G36 for specific situations. Never heard of the L85A2 (SA80) being used by police, not really suitable I think. [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Contag;33354918]Really because this guy required at least 8 officers and put four in the hospital [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] I'm not saying there aren't downsides to regularly armed police officers, but it's clearly not as simple as "if they only have knives, it can be solved with chemical sprays"[/QUOTE] It's regular practice to mob people like that, 8 isn't a lot for a guy with a knife to be honest. Keep in mind this was a chase so getting a load of officers on the scene would have taken a bit of time.
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;33354768]No , only specialists such as MOD troops can carry firearms but that's usually either a G36 or an MP7A1. [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] but it's completely unneccesary. The most anyone will ever have in the majority of the UK is a knife - and that can be solved with sprays which all officers carry.[/QUOTE] I've seen two police officers guarding an embassy near the Thames, they were holding MP5's. They didn't look like SRU to me.
[QUOTE=Mort and Charon;33354962]Bad management practice? He must have been around 28, 26 at the least, and I don't think it really matters at all here.. And I don't understand your logic... so we shouldn't give medals to soldiers for bravery because that's "their job". "Fuck giving him a Victoria Cross, we payed him to lose a leg saving civilians!". You've got to take into account the fact the man is wielding a 12 inch, very sharp butchers knife, sharp enough to cut through thick pig skin and the likes. Plus it's going to be a confined space with multiple people in there, I doubt a deficiency in their training had anything to do with the injuries. I know for a fact from my dad the police here have good personal combat training. Probably broke his hand because it was a huge fucking knife? As for firearms officers, there are quite a lot of tasers around (considered firearms) and there is always an armed response unit, in fast cars (sometimes a nice Mitsubishi or Subaru), around. Normally carry MP5s or MP7s for normal shifts, think they only use the G36 for specific situations.[/QUOTE] So what, 26-28 is the height of seniority and experience? How did these officers go beyond the call of duty? Apprehending violent suspects is their job. Give them a 'received injuries' medal, sure, but anything else and you might as well hand out medals to every officer. Good personal combat training? Then how the fuck did one man hospitalize four armed officers? If it's a confined space, why didn't they cordon it off if they'd instructed everyone to get out? Sharp enough knife to break his hand, yet not sharp enough to warrant reconstructive surgery? If you're going to give medals to these four officers, why not the others who were involved? Getting injured doesn't make your act more brave or courageous, unless you purposely allowed yourself to be injured in order to protect others (e.g. jumping on a grenade).
[QUOTE=RearAdmiral;33354806]British police do have teams licensed and trained to carry firearms, but they're usually called out in special circumstances, like suspected terrorist attacks. No idea what they carry, some sort of submachine gun or assault rifle.[/QUOTE] I was under the impression that ARVs were called on when something like (ironically) a knife is involved or any sort of weapon, or anything that a regular Constable can't take on themselves. Also I highly doubt the Constables were equipped with tasers as traffic and armed officers are useally the only ones to carry them. As brave as the officers were, I really don't think they should have gone in without any kind of backup.
[QUOTE=XanaToast.;33354764] every police officer SHOULD be carrying a weapon on duty[/QUOTE] No need, if you carry something that even LOOKS like an offensive weapon here you will be arrested.
I'm proud that news like this crops up amidst all the tales of dubious Police activity at the various Occupy events, best wishes for these Police Officers/
[QUOTE=Contag;33355030]So what, 26-28 is the height of seniority and experience? How did these officers go beyond the call of duty? Apprehending violent suspects is their job. Give them a 'received injuries' medal, sure, but anything else and you might as well hand out medals to every officer. Good personal combat training? Then how the fuck did one man hospitalize four armed officers? If it's a confined space, why didn't they cordon it off if they'd instructed everyone to get out? Sharp enough knife to break his hand, yet not sharp enough to warrant reconstructive surgery? If you're going to give medals to these four officers, why not the others who were involved? Getting injured doesn't make your act more brave or courageous, unless you purposely allowed yourself to be injured in order to protect others (e.g. jumping on a grenade).[/QUOTE] I don't know what you are getting at with the seniority stuff? None of them were really new people, and 8 years is a decent service time. As I said it was a chase, they will have sent available people there as quickly as possible, and they had no reason to suspect he was armed (infact he wasn't until he got to the butchers). So they're meant to hold off the chase until more senior officers/ their sergeant comes? That is practically saying they're useless. And do you not think this is brave when someone has a fucking [i]12 inch[/i] knife, your fellow officer(s) have already been injured, but you continue to try and apprehend him? I don't think combat training will have helped much here; again it was a confined space, the guy had a huge knife, officers were un-armed; doubt they even had chance to get their flick batons out, he was obviously some beserk guy, had been trying to hit police with a glass tube before. Really it would have taken a self-defense master to un-arm that guy without injuring himself. Take time to cordon off the area? They were chasing him, it's not like they had the place surrounded, and they're just going to back off and let some crazy fucker with a massive knife run off? It's not like they even knew he had a knife, he grabbed one in the shop. What's with the hand thing? Could've been anything, back of the knife, the handle, or even just in the scuffle. yeah a lot of medals depend on being there at the right/wrong time, but it doesn't diminish the fact the person acted bravely at the opportunity. Not saying it's the injuries that were brave either. [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Hizan;33355092]I was under the impression that ARVs were called on when something like (ironically) a knife is involved or any sort of weapon, or anything that a regular Constable can't take on themselves. Also I highly doubt the Constables were equipped with tasers as traffic and armed officers are useally the only ones to carry them. As brave as the officers were, I really don't think they should have gone in without any kind of backup.[/QUOTE] They wouldn't have if they knew he had that kind of knife, but he didn't till he went in the shop.
[QUOTE=Contag;33354431]I'm not too sure about this. How can you say they deserve special accolades for experiencing something that they are paid to do. [B]Let's compare it to semi-analogous situation. We can usually agree that someone helping an old woman across the road is a good thing, right? Does it have the same moral weight if that person is being paid $20 per old lady, and has an old lady quota in order to pay the bills?[/B] An alternate view of this situation is that the police have terrible management practices considering the most experienced officer in this group of four was still in his 20s, and that the four of them were injured by one man either demonstrates that their training is lacking or this man is actually some kind of reincarnated ninja on PCP. The PCP-reincarnated-ninja theory might be more likely considering he broke one of the officers hands with [B]a knife.[/B][/QUOTE] Of course it doesn't have the same moral weight, but we're not talking about helping an old woman cross a street one time, we're talking about putting your life on the line every single day. Their reward is the money, not that saving people is their reward.
[QUOTE=Contag;33354918] I'm not saying there aren't downsides to regularly armed police officers, but it's clearly not as simple as "if they only have knives, it can be solved with chemical sprays"[/QUOTE] officers are usually trained to combat knife situations, giving officers guns will just encourage criminals to start using guns more.
Is it true typical street cops in England don't care guns? [QUOTE=Vasili;33356536]officers are usually trained to combat knife situations, giving officers guns will just encourage criminals to start using guns more.[/QUOTE] I don't even..........
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;33354858]They'll usually carry an MP7A1 , but I've seen some carrying G36C's and a few SA80's[/QUOTE] Nah man, Specialist Firearms Officers usually carry an MP5 semi auto, but it depends on the regions. G36s, SG556 and Steyr AUGs in some places, but there isnt any regional force that uses L85s or MP7s. The MOD police (guarding MOD buildings) use MP7s and occasionally old L85s but they're a completely different kettle of fish.
"How's the hand Nicolas?" [IMG]http://mtv.mtvnimages.com/movies/photos/h/hot_fuzz_011807/flip-i.jpg?width=600[/IMG] "Still a bit stiff."
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;33354768] but it's completely unneccesary. The most anyone will ever have in the majority of the UK is a knife - and that can be solved with sprays which all officers carry.[/QUOTE] Ok. You face off with a man armed with a knife. On the table you have a sidearm and OC spray. So, you're saying - you would choose OC? Knives are no jokes. Knives are lethal devices. There for your use of force should be equal to what is being used against you. Knife? I'm going for the pistol. Especially if the offender has already attacked other officers. I honestly think that anyone working in an active law enforcement level should carry a sidearm or otherwise have a firearm they can have access to. Many people will state, like yourself, that officers do not need it - while this may be true - there are many things we have that we technically do not need but still keep around 'just in case'. Police should have that option. Police in the US, for the vast majority, will never use their firearm other than in training. I am sure in the UK if your officers were given firearms that this would also be the truth. It's there, just like your vest. Do you really need your vest? A majority would think probably not - how many officers get shot at each year? But you still wear it. Just in case. The same is said about your firearm.
[QUOTE=HkSniper;33359224]Ok. You face off with a man armed with a knife. On the table you have a sidearm and OC spray. So, you're saying - you would choose OC? Knives are no jokes. Knives are lethal devices. There for your use of force should be equal to what is being used against you. Knife? I'm going for the pistol. Especially if the offender has already attacked other officers. I honestly think that anyone working in an active law enforcement level should carry a sidearm or otherwise have a firearm they can have access to. Many people will state, like yourself, that officers do not need it - while this may be true - there are many things we have that we technically do not need but still keep around 'just in case'. Police should have that option. Police in the US, for the vast majority, will never use their firearm other than in training. I am sure in the UK if your officers were given firearms that this would also be the truth. It's there, just like your vest. Do you really need your vest? A majority would think probably not - how many officers get shot at each year? But you still wear it. Just in case. The same is said about your firearm.[/QUOTE] And that is why we have firearms officers. For the specific moment they do need firearms. Not all officers need them. When all officers have them they are more likely to be used in situations that don't call for a firearm to be used, just because they have them. That is backed up by your logic that they are more likely to choose the firearm than pepper spray. I don't think a firearm was particularly needed in this situation, no one was killed, all it would have done is ended up with at least one dead body at the scene, might have been more in a confined shop like that with people in. The standard vest isn't bullet proof anyway, it's only stab proof. Firearms officers have bullet proof vests though.
[quote]Ch Supt Dalwardin Babu[/quote] That's one of the more awesome sequence of letters I've seen in a news story lately. On a more serious note, why couldn't the reporter get a quote from the business owner next door? "Yeah, that crazy man got a knife and then things got funky" [IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/cecilb6/funky.jpg[/IMG]
To be honest, I think there should be more localized fire arms support groups that could be dispatched to something like this, and still keep the real anti-terrorist armed forces aswell. I live in an area near an airport so we do have a armed response unit nearby always on call. But, if something happened where I live it would still take 20 minutes for them to get here. Im not for every officer having a pistol or anything, however. It could be a possibility for atleast one of every two officers in a patrol car to have a taser? The problem is, when a normal police officer in Britain gets into this situation its hand to hand pretty much. A baton vs a knife isnt going to work well, even if the officer has an antistab vest.
If they had been US cops the guy would've been gunned down.
The thing about using guns, if you're a cop that is, is when you need it you need it NOW. By the time a call goes out for the gun guy, and by the time he actually arrives, and by the time he's advised of what/who/where to shoot, the shiat's over.
[QUOTE=Contag;33354431]I'm not too sure about this. How can you say they deserve special accolades for experiencing something that they are paid to do. Let's compare it to semi-analogous situation. We can usually agree that someone helping an old woman across the road is a good thing, right? Does it have the same moral weight if that person is being paid $20 per old lady, and has an old lady quota in order to pay the bills? An alternate view of this situation is that the police have terrible management practices considering the most experienced officer in this group of four was still in his 20s, and that the four of them were injured by one man either demonstrates that their training is lacking or this man is actually some kind of reincarnated ninja on PCP. The PCP-reincarnated-ninja theory might be more likely considering he broke one of the officers hands with [B]a knife.[/B][/QUOTE] As a career, being a cop is not the most lucrative [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Instant Mix;33354768]No , only specialists such as MOD troops can carry firearms but that's usually either a G36 or an MP7A1. [editline]20th November 2011[/editline] but it's completely unneccesary. The most anyone will ever have in the majority of the UK is a knife - and that can be solved with sprays which all officers carry.[/QUOTE] Perhaps better safe than sorry? I dunno, makes sense to me.
Moral panic time.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.