[IMG]https://i.uploadly.com/5g5pzbx1_sl.jpg[/IMG]
[quote=excerpt]NHS trusts have overspent by more than £2.2bn this year as services struggle to get a grip of their finances.
The April to December figures for England mark the three-quarter point of the 2015-16 financial year.
The deficit is already nearly triple what it was for the whole of the 2014-15 - and means the NHS is on track for one of its largest ever overspends.[/quote]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35608992[/url]
They report this crap but NHS is still understaffed, underpaid and backlogged with struggling demands all over the country.
So when they promised to pump a higher budget into the NHS, it was a load of HOT AIR as per usual.
[img]http://www.cleveland-hotairballoons.com/img/footer/cleveland-hot-air-balloon-rides-05.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772245]""""""""""""""""""""""""""""propaganda""""""""""""""""""""""""""""[/QUOTE]
wot, don't be a doughnut.
david comoron wants to privatise the NHS and showcase that it's a failure. He's been doing this since he took office. He's a twat.
People are more unhappy but when you actually work within the NHS you'll know where the problems come from.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
by scrapping the bursary which helps medical students and nurses and the constant cutbacks in major departments and closing down various A&Es and minimizing services, you will NOT get a better NHS.
Where is the improvement, name one improvement he implemented since 2008 m8.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772245]""""""""""""""""""""""""""""propaganda""""""""""""""""""""""""""""[/QUOTE]
Oh fuck off you brainless twat. (naive, stupid, selfish, ignorant take your pick.)
They're desperate to make the NHS out as over priced and inefficient. It's been [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health"]rated the most efficient healthcare system in the world[/URL] and its problems are from a frozen budget despite population increase. ([URL="http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget"]see the real value of the budget staying absolutely the same despite population increases[/URL])
You clearly lack any kind of objectivity in this.
If you want privatised health fuck off to america. Don't let the tories ruin the good system we have going on here.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - rilez))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=AK'z;49772280]wot, don't be a doughnut.
david comoron wants to privatise the NHS and showcase that it's a failure. He's been doing this since he took office. He's a twat.
People are more unhappy but when you actually work within the NHS you'll know where the problems come from.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
by scrapping the bursary which helps medical students and nurses and the constant cutbacks in major departments and closing down various A&Es and minimizing services, you will NOT get a better NHS.
Where is the improvement, name one improvement he implemented since 2008 m8.[/QUOTE]
The NHS is a failure, but Cameron isn't going to 'privatise' it or do anything of note because the NHS is akin to the national religion in spite of it not being very good and it would be electoral suicide to even suggest it.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49772331]Oh fuck off you brainless twat. (naive, stupid, selfish, ignorant take your pick.)
They're desperate to make the NHS out as over priced and inefficient. It's been [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health"]rated the most efficient healthcare system in the world[/URL] and its problems are from a frozen budget despite population increase. ([URL="http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget"]see the real value of the budget staying absolutely the same despite population increases[/URL])
You clearly lack any kind of objectivity in this.
If you want privatised health fuck off to america. Don't let the tories ruin the good system we have going on here.[/QUOTE]
Take a look at almost any other system in the world other than America. Look at France, Germany, Austria, Japan, etc. which have better health services and aren't the awfulness of American healthcare.
[url]http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/smugness-nhs-cheerleaders-unwarranted-it-totally-overrated-1544712[/url]
We have a culture of neverending tub-thumping regarding something that isn't very good. On the whole findings about the NHS are not particularly positive, but you of course ignore those which contradict your view and trumpet those which do.
In terms of privitisation, I don't think privitising the sub-firms that produce the technology and equipment is necessarily a bad thing as it would also ensure we have the best most-funded technology that wouldn't be coming out of the NHS budget, but the companies budgets.
He won't sell the NHS lol, FlashMarsh is right -it's akin to the national religion.
The TTIP, however, means a lot worse for the NHS.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49772349]In terms of privitisation, I don't think privitising the sub-firms that produce the technology and equipment is necessarily a bad thing as it would also ensure we have the best most-funded technology that wouldn't be coming out of the NHS budget, but the companies budgets.
He won't sell the NHS lol, FlashMarsh is right -it's akin to the national religion.
The TTIP, however, means a lot worse for the NHS.[/QUOTE]
Keep eroding and underfunding the NHS so people don't like it any more. People will start using private firms because they don't trust the NHS to do its job. Then they'll kill it. TTIP will help with that since it would mean private healthcare companies are entitled to the same or similar subsidies.
They won't outright cancel it but they will make it shitter and shitter till the people demand the government get rid of it. Then private healthcare will have no real competition and we'll end up like the US. Spending 1000s per year on insurance then 100s/1000s more in excesses.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49772370]Keep eroding and underfunding the NHS so people don't like it any more. People will start using private firms because they don't trust the NHS to do its job. Then they'll kill it. TTIP will help with that since it would mean private healthcare companies are entitled to the same or similar subsidies.
They won't outright cancel it but they will make it shitter and shitter till the people demand the government get rid of it. Then private healthcare will have no real competition and we'll end up like the US. Spending 1000s per year on insurance then 100s/1000s more in excesses.[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep claiming that we'll end up like the US? The US is as much of an outlier as the UK. Most other systems function better and aren't like either one of the two.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772336]The NHS is a failure, but Cameron isn't going to 'privatise' it or do anything of note because the NHS is akin to the national religion in spite of it not being very good and it would be electoral suicide to even suggest it.
[/QUOTE]
"not very good" is not a failure. it still saves lives and is still world reknown.
[QUOTE=AK'z;49772373]"not very good" is not a failure. it still saves lives and is still world reknown.[/QUOTE]
If you accept it is 'not very good', then why do you relentlessly defend it? I was actually about to edit out the 'failure', because, correct, it isn't a 'failure'. It just isn't nearly as great as everyone thinks.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;49772349]In terms of privitisation, I don't think privitising the sub-firms that produce the technology and equipment is necessarily a bad thing as it would also ensure we have the best most-funded technology that wouldn't be coming out of the NHS budget, but the companies budgets.
He won't sell the NHS lol, FlashMarsh is right -it's akin to the national religion.
The TTIP, however, means a lot worse for the NHS.[/QUOTE]
Enjoy £200 per appointment to see the GP.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772376]If you accept it is 'not very good', then why do you relentlessly defend it?[/QUOTE]
Because I don't enjoy paying £50'000 for treatment. If you enjoy it then good for you.
And furthermore, I don't think you'll feel very good after being discharged from A&E with a bill of £500 for some sutures and blood tests. And maybe some £200 x-rays or a £1000 MRI if you lost concsiousness. You can pay that out of your arse.
Could you stop strawmanning and only using comparisons to the US?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772376]If you accept it is 'not very good', then why do you relentlessly defend it? I was actually about to edit out the 'failure', because, correct, it isn't a 'failure'. It just isn't nearly as great as everyone thinks.[/QUOTE]
The report I quoted before actually said the NHS was the best system, calling it efficient was a conclusion I came to since it was voted the best and received less funding then the others.
Why get rid of it if its good and efficient? Other systems spend more and some services (obviously not all since that report voted NHS better) are better, if anything thats a reason to give the NHS more funding.
Getting rid of the NHS is either selfish (for those who go private anyway and don't want to pay the taxes) or myopic.
edit: using the excuse "it costs too much" is stupid reasoning to move to a more expensive system (find me a better, cheaper system)
I would not be surprised if Cameron has investments in private healthcare firms, it would not be the first time a Tory Prime minister has crippled the country for their own gain. If I recall correctly Thatcher's husband had investments in or owned overseas power companies meaning she got a fair old chunk of change when UK coal mining took a hit... I could be wrong but still I imagine his angle is motivated by greed.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772390]Could you stop strawmanning and only using comparisons to the US?[/QUOTE]
can you copy and paste where I said America, no.
But 99% of the world's healthcare will charge you for everything I listed above. If you care to address why you enjoy paying for treatment then go ahead.
'Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain, so extending to all the choices currently available only to the minority who opt for private provision.'
'The problem with the NHS is not one of resources. Rather, it is that it is a centrally run, state monopoly designed over half a century ago.'
- ‘DIRECT DEMOCRACY’ by Jeremy Hunt et al.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772376]If you accept it is 'not very good', then why do you relentlessly defend it?[/QUOTE]
I also want to address this point.
When you blurt out that it's not very good, you need to understand exactly where the problems lie and the causes. One of the hospitals I work at are short of beds by at least 80. This causes A&E to grind to a halt.
Now do you think this is the NHS that caused this or the budget?
And the staffing and pay issues. You want to blame the NHS, or the budget.
Jeremy Hunt lives in such a bubble it hurts.
Mom is losing her job due to funding cuts for staff, yet the same hospital is opening another ward??
I mean where does that even make sense.
[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;49772441]Jeremy [I]*#&![/I] lives in such a bubble it hurts.
Mom is losing her job due to funding cuts for staff, yet the same hospital is opening another ward??
I mean where does that even make sense.[/QUOTE]
The Tories know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, they are literally the stereotypical Dickensian business misers who wring their hands and base everything on the bottom line.
[I]"We need hospitals to cost less, staff cost money and are easily expandable so fire them. We also need hospitals to serve more patients, so another ward adds extra beds. This makes perfect sense, lower costs and higher patient turnovers, What could go wrong? "[/I]
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
Sorry to hear about you mum by the way, I hope you guys end up pulling through.
[QUOTE=AK'z;49772434]I also want to address this point.
When you blurt out that it's not very good, you need to understand exactly where the problems lie and the causes. One of the hospitals I work at are short of beds by at least 80. This causes A&E to grind to a halt.
Now do you think this is the NHS that caused this or the budget?
And the staffing and pay issues. You want to blame the NHS, or the budget.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca85utAWcAAm7us.jpg[/IMG]
The NHS, it seems, is in permanent crisis.
You can only conclude from this two things:
1) It has systematic problems which lead it to be in permanent crisis
2) The BMA et al. endlessly manufacture false crises in order to keep themselves relevant
I personally think its a mix of both, both of which are bad.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;49772412]I would not be surprised if Cameron has investments in private healthcare firms, it would not be the first time a Tory Prime minister has crippled the country for their own gain. If I recall correctly Thatcher's husband had investments in or owned overseas power companies meaning she got a fair old chunk of change when UK coal mining took a hit... I could be wrong but still I imagine his angle is motivated by greed.[/QUOTE]
Why is it OK to speculate regarding conservative politicians intent yet when someone like Corbyn is questioned it's playing dirty?
Yes, Thatchers husband had ties to oil companies abroad, he also resigned from positions related to them quite soon after she became Conservative Party leader. Are we going to be consistent here and criticize Labour for trying to strengthen unions, which in turn funnels money to them?
Anyway the mines were a drain, how closing them "crippled the country" is beyond me, it eliminated the 3 day weeks and increased productivity in the remaining mines. Of course the unions threw a shit fit about it, their baby had grown into a gluttonous beast yet they couldn't do anything to risk losing face with other industry workers.
You know what did cripple parts of the country though? The textile mills closing down, a lot of workers didn't even get a nice payout like the miners did and they don't cry about it half as much as the miners do.
If the population gets fatter, older and larger in number, and funding goes down, then it is pretty obvious what is going to happen. Add to that constant demands for service expansion, longer working hours, higher demand, shorter waiting times and so much more, and it shows why there are issues.
The government wants doctors surgeries open 7 days? Need to fund them for that, they can't work for free, and lots of equipment is fucking expensive. Even a tiny little thing like a spine injection is expensive because we need a sterile OR for it, and that is expensive to keep.
The main systemic problems I have seen with the NHS are due to the constant jerking around - every 4 years there is a new reform announced before the previous one even takes place, as it is a political fucktoy. That and the fact we are using scanners over 10 years old that desparately need to be replaced.
An MRI scanner is 3 million or so. A F-35 is 100 million. I think we have about 400 NHS MRI scanners or something in the UK. (I believe there are about 5.9 scanners per million people). Wwe could literally double the number of MRI scanners, cutting wait times in half. Take the cost of a few more F-35s and we would have staff for them. We need this equipment because it allows for [b]earlier, cheaper[/b] interventions, rather than things being picked up at last minute and requiring expensive interventions. This is important as we have so few MRI scanners compared to basically every other developed, or developing country. Things like this are a huge cash sink - they are expensive to run, but this is peoples lives that we are talking about.
We also need more funding in public health and mental health for prevention, rather than expensive hospitalisations. And also funding in education - primary school is the most important time for kids, but we literally see teachers as glorified child minders!
As it is, the NHS is actually insanely efficient, but it still has fat that can be trimmed. The fact is, Britains want Scandinavian quality for American taxes, and that just isn't doable. From my experience, the budget crisis has led to more expensive things - cut staff and take on agency for short term. Then be forced to rely on agency, which is vastly more expensive. Tired and overworked staff make mistakes, leads to court cases costing thousands and bad press. Of course it rightly should - everyone's care should be as good as possible, but mistakes will happen when people are overworked.
A huige cost saving measure that is being employed is advanced practice - nurses and allied health professionals are taking over things that used to be solely done by doctors, and they are good at it. Britain is a [b]world leader[/b] in advanced practice, it is very impressive.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772544][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca85utAWcAAm7us.jpg[/IMG]
The NHS, it seems, is in permanent crisis.
You can only conclude from this two things:
1) It has systematic problems which lead it to be in permanent crisis
2) The BMA et al. endlessly manufacture false crises in order to keep themselves relevant
I personally think its a mix of both, both of which are bad.[/QUOTE]
thx for quoting the daily mirror 9 times.
congratulations.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
and now you say it's manufactured crisis.
you know what, whatever your arguing. I'm not interested.
[editline]19th February 2016[/editline]
You blatently have no clue, have no experience and speculate on no bounds. If you had a personal experience with healthcare that was affecting you or your family, I'd be on your side and totally understand but you're pasting the most garbage I've seen.
[QUOTE=AK'z;49772280]wot, don't be a doughnut.
david comoron wants to privatise the NHS and showcase that it's a failure. He's been doing this since he took office. He's a twat.[/QUOTE]
But why is that a bad thing? If someobe has an opinion, he points out why he has said opinion, for example by pointing out the flaws of the system he wants replaced. How is that propaganda?
[QUOTE=proch;49772944]But why is that a bad thing?[/QUOTE]
I already said what I have to. If you enjoy paying £60'000 for major surgery, then go ahead.
Privatisation != Abolishment of free healthcare
Perhaps you should stop electing conservative governments that defund your healthcare.
[QUOTE=AK'z;49772992]I already said what I have to. If you enjoy paying £60'000 for major surgery, then go ahead.[/QUOTE]
Still not propaganda. Just a different point of view.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49772544][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca85utAWcAAm7us.jpg[/IMG]
The NHS, it seems, is in permanent crisis.
You can only conclude from this two things:
1) It has systematic problems which lead it to be in permanent crisis
2) The BMA et al. endlessly manufacture false crises in order to keep themselves relevant
I personally think its a mix of both, both of which are bad.[/QUOTE]
when you say the BMA, do you mean tabloid newspapers and politicians which most of your quotes are from
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