Pope Francis: It's 'terrible' children taught they can choose gender
123 replies, posted
[quote]VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis has lamented that children are being taught at school that gender can be a choice, adding that his predecessor, Benedict XVI has labeled current times "the epoch of sin against God the Creator."
Francis weighed in with his view on gender and what he said was that of the emeritus pontiff while meeting privately last week with bishops from Poland during his pilgrimage there. The Vatican released a transcript Tuesday of those closed-door remarks.
The pope said he wanted to conclude his remarks by reflecting on this: "We are living a moment of annihilation of man as image of God."
Francis said: "Today, in schools they are teaching this to children -- to children! -- that everyone can choose their gender."
Without specifying, he blamed this on textbooks supplied by "persons and institutions who donate money." The pope blamed what he called "ideological colonizing" backed by "very influential countries" which he didn't identify, adding "this is terrible."
One such "colonization" he said -- "I'll say it clearly with its first and last name -- is gender."[/quote]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/08/02/world/europe/ap-eu-rel-vatican-pope-gender.html?_r=0[/url]
I guess he can't be perfect.
Seems like he's mostly just ignorant of the topic
He's still way the fuck better than the last
gotta hate the thing it's okay to hate or nobody will listen to you
Because the fucking pope is going to wave the LGBTQI flag from the Vatican and declare that he himself doesn't mind a good lot of bum fun
[QUOTE=hoodoo456;50818433]I guess he can't be perfect.[/QUOTE]
Forreal though what do you expect from him? He's the freaking Pope and still the leader of the Catholic Church.
egh. fine I'll bite.
I don't know what kind of schools are telling their students that they can be any gender they want, sex ed and biology classes have made it very clear your one or the other.
Transgender people don't choose their gender though, so it shows that the pope just doesn't understand it.
I'm all for choice, I just fear constantly reminding someone about it might cause dysphoria.
Disappointing but expected. Baby steps. At-least quite a number of Catholics won't agree.
He's got a point.
you dont choose a gender when your trans
your forced into the decision or face mental anguish for life.
He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.[/QUOTE]
People often mistake transgender as a whole new gender I think, when its really going from one to the other, aka transitioning
I feel some people lose their way in the process. Im not sure if thats the right way to word what im trying to say but i dont know how else
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.[/QUOTE]
This pretty much sums up how I feel about it, and like Skatehawk, I'm not going to get any deeper into this minefield than that.
I am still amazed that so many people here don't seem to understand what being transgender means after so many threads about this topic. I guess some people just don't want to learn.
I don't think my body is ready for another 30 pages of arguing with a brick wall.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.[/QUOTE]
I dunno I've been to gender counseling for years and I go through periods of multiple months where I feel intense crippling gender dysphoria that eventually goes away and I feel "non-trans" again. Which is why I've never bothered transitioning and why I pretty much can't treat my issues beyond counseling.
Things aren't just bullshit because you haven't experienced them.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.[/QUOTE]
that may be so but I think that interpretation is giving far too much benefit of the doubt to the pope
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.[/QUOTE]
I don't thing he's specifically fingering out genderfluids, I think he actually just does not like transgenders in general.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50818586]I dunno I've been to gender counseling for years and I go through periods of multiple months where I feel intense crippling gender dysphoria that eventually goes away and I feel "non-trans" again. Which is why I've never bothered transitioning and why I pretty much can't treat my issues beyond counseling.
Things aren't just bullshit because you haven't experienced them.[/QUOTE]
dysphoria waxes and wanes depending on how busy your life is, doesn't mean you're not trans
you should at least give transitioning a try, you can sweat specifics your whole life and never get anywhere but sometimes you just gotta say fuck it
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.[/QUOTE]
I don't think the science is really out on why people are or become transgender, whether your environment has something to do with it, which genes might be in play, etc.
Personally I seriously doubt that you're purely born as transgender (or well, in that sense, as cisgender) - you can (probably) have a disposition, but your environment probably has a lot to do with it as well. I prefer the idea of you simply being born as a gender, because it closes the door on "pray the gay away"-type therapy, but I don't really find it likely.
The tricky part is when you can really make the call; don't quote me on this, but I remember a study (a bit too tired to go hunt for it right now) about a group of European kids, who identified (it could've also been "which gender would you rather be", in the study, which is, at least at that age, a different thing really) as the opposite gender at, iirc, age 12 or thereabouts. They were then followed up on at age 20 or so, where a significant portion (more than a third at least) had changed their mind (as in, they considered themselves to be cisgender). If someone knows of a similar, perhaps more credible than "I kinda remember this", study, I'd be happy to read it.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50818634]I don't think the science is really out on why people are or become transgender, whether your environment has something to do with it, which genes might be in play, etc.
Personally I seriously doubt that you're purely born as transgender (or well, in that sense, as cisgender) - you can (probably) have a disposition, but your environment probably has a lot to do with it as well. I prefer the idea of you simply being born as a gender, because it closes the door on "pray the gay away"-type therapy, but I don't really find it likely.
The tricky part is when you can really make the call; don't quote me on this, but I remember a study (a bit too tired to go hunt for it right now) about a group of European kids, who identified (it could've also been "which gender would you rather be", in the study, which is, at least at that age, a different thing really) as the opposite gender at, iirc, age 12 or thereabouts. They were then followed up on at age 20 or so, where a significant portion (more than a third at least) had changed their mind (as in, they considered themselves to be cisgender). If someone knows of a similar, perhaps more credible than "I kinda remember this", study, I'd be happy to read it.[/QUOTE]
I actually have a "I kinda remember this" counterpoint to that study - the authors of that paper literally couldn't track all down the participants years after and, for whatever reason, decided to effectively mark the missing people as "not trans", massively inflating the "false positive" rate
sounds insane so I'll try to find it
Before he became the pope, Bergoglio was well known for not appreciating homosexuals too much (I remember there was a letter from him saying that gay marriage was a "destructive act against god's work".) so it's not a huge surprise to hear his views on that haven't changed.
[QUOTE=Turnips5;50818662]I actually have a "I kinda remember this" counterpoint to that study - the authors of that paper literally couldn't track all down the participants years after and, for whatever reason, decided to effectively mark the missing people as "not trans", massively inflating the "false positive" rate
sounds insane so I'll try to find it[/QUOTE]
I do remember that there was a fair share that couldn't get tracked down, but that would seriously be downright terrible practice. The only reasonable thing would be to leave them out.
You can only expect the Catholic church to change so quickly...
Honestly, the whole topic of gender identity is something children should be introduced to with a very, VERY tiny grain of salt.
Childhood is a time that's ripe for mistakes and misunderstandings to be made.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;50818553]He's right though.
The whole concept of genderfluid is bullshit; you're either male or female, but sometimes during development your mind doesn't exactly get the memo with your body.
Implying gender is a choice only gives ammunition to the people that think you can "fix" transgenderism.[/QUOTE]
tbh this is the best way to put it
same thing goes for homosexuality too
[editline]2nd August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=cdr248;50818603]I don't thing he's specifically fingering out genderfluids, I think he actually just does not like transgenders in general.[/QUOTE]
I think "Dislike" when it comes to this guy is a bit of a miswording. he seems pretty well rounded enough that he doesn't seem to dislike much, he's open to interpretation
its more a matter of not understanding it, or not having seen what it is. Not even totally 100% ignorance, just, he doesn't quite know what it's about, you know?
I mean, he doesn't like the idea of it, is what I got from what he said. i don't think he likes trans people themselves
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50818683]I do remember that there was a fair share that couldn't get tracked down, but that would seriously be downright terrible practice. The only reasonable thing would be to leave them out.[/QUOTE]
current best practice for trans kids is counselling, let them go through a tiny bit of puberty, see if they are okay with or hate the changes, then if they hate the changes, let them go on puberty blockers (GnRH agonists, which have been used for decades in the treatment of precocious puberty, and entirely reversible) until they're ready to make a decision, then go forward with hormone therapy (again, at any point, they can stop without consequence.) it's a sensible treatment plan.
and yet you hear about kids "getting sex changes" as if anyone has ever advocated performing sexual reassignment surgery on a minor. well, they used to do it on intersex infants without their consent, which was a fucking insane idea, but society never got up in arms about that
[QUOTE=axelord157;50818584]I don't think my body is ready for another 30 pages of arguing with a brick wall.[/QUOTE]
You're just mad someone posted it before you.
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