Hyperloop One inks a deal to evaluate potential first ‘Hyperloop cargo offloader’ in Dubai port
40 replies, posted
[QUOTE]Dubai is continuously showing interest in hyperloop systems and today, they interest manifested by inking a deal between Hyperloop One, the main company developing a hyperloop system, and DP World, one of the world’s biggest marine port operator, in order to evaluate and develop a potential ‘Hyperloop cargo offloader’ at Dubai’s Port of Jebel Ali.
...
The partnership will conduct a feasibility study to investigate the business case, route options and cost to build and operate the system.
[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://electrek.co/2016/08/16/hyperloop-one-dubai-underwater-hyperloop-network-port/"]Source[/URL]
In Dubai of all places? That's like the last place you would be wanting this sort of thing to be showcased considering it will be built by slave labour in a horrifically corrupt city that's entering economic decline.
If it's even built, most of the budget will be sucked out through corruption and ineptitude.
I think if they can get a Hyperloop working, it's greatest potential is in cargo transportation. It might be good for moving freight from coastal ports to inland depots.
[QUOTE=OvB;50896725]I think if they can get a Hyperloop working, it's greatest potential is in cargo transportation. It might be good for moving freight from coastal ports to inland depots.[/QUOTE]
Is there a great demand for it though? Freight typically doesn't need to move quickly (especially when its such a short distance) and the hyperloop isn't able to handle as high a capacity as an ordinary railway or a lorry fleet.
additionally a lot of the real estate in dubai is cheap. it's not like its hong kong where half a square metre of land is worth a billion dollars.
The Hyperloop is something I am really doubtful about. The very concept of such a long piece of tubing being in a vaccuum without the temperature warping it and causing a leak seems unlikely. Not to mention the disasterous effect depressurization would have on the entire tube [I]and[/I] the stations on both ends. Also the proposed turbine propultion system doesn't make any sense in such a low pressure enviroment. It just looks ridiculously expensive and dangerous.
[QUOTE=wewt!;50896909]The Hyperloop is something I am really doubtful about. The very concept of such a long piece of tubing being in a vaccuum without the temperature warping it and causing a leak seems unlikely. Not to mention the disasterous effect depressurization would have on the entire tube and the stations on both ends. Also the proposed turbine propultion system doesn't make any sense in such a low pressure enviroment. It just looks ridiculously expensive and dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Kind of the same thing was said about cars/trains when they first got around. The horrors of a high speed motorized horse could be the end of all!
The entire concept is still in diapers and it will take perhaps ages before it will take off, but the technology and economics demand faster transport methods and replacing trains with high speed trains is both expensive and on some parts impossible while other forms of transportation are also on the slow-take of getting faster and more efficient.
I am no export on this field but i really welcome such new innovations, especially if they actually become reality.
So i quickly dug up some information regarding safety which is of course the number one discussion when the hyperloop gets discussed:
[url]http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-happens-if-the-hyperloop-crashes-2013-8?IR=T[/url]
[QUOTE]
Musk starts by saying that the system will likely be safer than other forms of transport:
[QUOTE][B]The system is immune to wind, ice, fog, and rain. The propulsion system is integrated into the tube and can only accelerate the capsule to speeds that are safe in each section. [/B]With human control error and unpredictable weather removed from the system, very few safety concerns remain.
In many cases Hyperloop is intrinsically safer than airplanes, trains, or automobiles.
[/QUOTE]But in the event of a serious incident, passengers may lose oxygen — they're inside a sealed tube, after all. So Oxygen masks would be deployed:
[QUOTE]In the case of a more significant depressurization, oxygen masks would be deployed as in airplanes. Once the capsule reached the destination safely it would be removed from service. Safety of the onboard air supply in Hyperloop would be very similar to aircraft, and can take advantage of decades of development in similar systems.
[/QUOTE]The passenger capsules — which coast through the tubes, pushed in front of a column of pressurized air — are coasting for much of their journey, so they have emergency brakes and engine-driven wheels in case they are stranded or need to avoid hitting a stranded Hyperloop car:
[QUOTE][B]In the unlikely event of a large scale capsule depressurization[/B], other capsules in the tube would automatically begin emergency braking whilst the Hyperloop tube would undergo rapid re-pressurization along its entire length.
Once all capsules behind the stranded capsule had been safely brought to rest, [B]capsules would drive themselves to safety using small onboard electric motors to power deployed wheels[/B]. All capsules would be equipped with a reserve air supply great enough to ensure the safety of all passengers for a worst case scenario event.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50896760]Is there a great demand for it though? Freight typically doesn't need to move quickly (especially when its such a short distance) and the hyperloop isn't able to handle as high a capacity as an ordinary railway or a lorry fleet.
additionally a lot of the real estate in dubai is cheap. it's not like its hong kong where half a square metre of land is worth a billion dollars.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it would replace normal rail but it might be useful in some situations. Time will tell.
[editline]16th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=wewt!;50896909]The Hyperloop is something I am really doubtful about. The very concept of such a long piece of tubing being in a vaccuum without the temperature warping it and causing a leak seems unlikely. Not to mention the disasterous effect depressurization would have on the entire tube [I]and[/I] the stations on both ends. Also the proposed turbine propultion system doesn't make any sense in such a low pressure enviroment. It just looks ridiculously expensive and dangerous.[/QUOTE]
The turbine doesn't provide propulsion no matter what Thunderf00t says. The turbine provides air for the air bearings that it rides on. Forward motion is provided by linear motors. Though many designs (and I think the design HyperloopOne is currently working on) use maglev for the levitation instead of air bearings, meaning it would have no turbine.
[QUOTE=wewt!;50896909]The Hyperloop is something I am really doubtful about. The very concept of such a long piece of tubing being in a vaccuum without the temperature warping it and causing a leak seems unlikely. Not to mention the disasterous effect depressurization would have on the entire tube [I]and[/I] the stations on both ends. Also the proposed turbine propultion system doesn't make any sense in such a low pressure enviroment. It just looks ridiculously expensive and dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Its extremely dangerous, this thing is operating much lower pressures than cruising altitude of passenger aircraft. Sealing the tubes effectively will be tricky, as you cannot make it rigid. Sucking up all that air to make the incredibly low pressure will be energy intensive, you'll need many pumps positioned along the length of the tube as at that low pressure, air will find its way in if not sealed good enough.
Hyperloop if it ever does get made will be niche transport, freight will be so uneconomical it wouldnt even be considered as a serious option. You'll need bigger tubes if you want to shift anything substantial, yup that means even more air to suck out.
Rail can haul so much more than this ever will be able to.
In regards to that safety information, its so sparse on details and shrugs off huge issues like they're nothing
[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;50897145]Its extremely dangerous, this thing is operating much lower pressures than cruising altitude of passenger aircraft. Sealing the tubes effectively will be tricky, as you cannot make it rigid. Sucking up all that air to make the incredibly low pressure will be energy intensive, you'll need many pumps positioned along the length of the tube as at that low pressure, air will find its way in if not sealed good enough.
Hyperloop if it ever does get made will be niche transport, freight will be so uneconomical it wouldnt even be considered as a serious option. You'll need bigger tubes if you want to shift anything substantial, yup that means even more air to suck out.
Rail can haul so much more than this ever will be able to.
In regards to that safety information, its so sparse on details and shrugs off huge issues like they're nothing[/QUOTE]
You also have to consider for a second if anyone on the planet would actually sign up for a transportation method that could easily be extremely devastating, that being said i really doubt they would shrug off issues like that for the sake of having another form of transportation.
In case you haven't read the article
[QUOTE]The partnership will conduct a feasibility study to investigate the business case, route options and cost to build and operate the system.
[/QUOTE]
Basically, jackshit is happening besides looking that possibility of this actually becoming something.
[QUOTE=darth-veger;50896973]Kind of the same thing was said about cars/trains when they first got around. The horrors of a high speed motorized horse could be the end of all![/QUOTE]Except any dickhead with a rifle can put holes in the tube and it's completely fucked the system until you replace it. You can't really compare the same thing to another transportation system, trains will still function if you shoot at the tracks and short of actually cutting them or using an enormous explosion to undermine it the tracks will still function. Hyperloop tubes rely on a near-vacuum, I could make a company waste millions by taking pot-shots with a home-built anti-materiel rifle if I wanted to be ~super sneaky~ about it. More realistically I'd just buy some M2 AP or M8 API and get any number of rifles chambered in .50 BMG since I live in the United States.
I wouldn't need to destroy the system, just keep hitting it every now and again to make it so expensive I start ruining the local economy. There's miles and miles of open land where I could do it from too, catching me would be nigh impossible. I think the system is just too costly and too enticing for sabotage to ever be safe and reliable, I hope they include the possibility of terror attacks in their feasibility research because unfortunately that is the reality we live in these days.
[editline]16th August 2016[/editline]
Though it is a cool idea, I wish they could put it underground where it would be safe and secure but unfortunately this is all happening in California first and I have no idea what the ground around Dubai is like.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50897741]Except any dickhead with a rifle can put holes in the tube and it's completely fucked the system until you replace it. You can't really compare the same thing to another transportation system, trains will still function if you shoot at the tracks and short of actually cutting them or using an enormous explosion to undermine it the tracks will still function. Hyperloop tubes rely on a near-vacuum, I could make a company waste millions by taking pot-shots with a home-built anti-materiel rifle if I wanted to be ~super sneaky~ about it. More realistically I'd just buy some M2 AP or M8 API and get any number of rifles chambered in .50 BMG since I live in the United States.
I wouldn't need to destroy the system, just keep hitting it every now and again to make it so expensive I start ruining the local economy. There's miles and miles of open land where I could do it from too, catching me would be nigh impossible. I think the system is just too costly and too enticing for sabotage to ever be safe and reliable, I hope they include the possibility of terror attacks in their feasibility research because unfortunately that is the reality we live in these days.
[editline]16th August 2016[/editline]
Though it is a cool idea, I wish they could put it underground where it would be safe and secure but unfortunately this is all happening in California first and I have no idea what the ground around Dubai is like.[/QUOTE]
With that concept in mind it's as easy to sabotage a normal train too. You just need a crowbar and a log. And placing a vaccum tube underground on an earthquake zone is a recipe for disaster.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50897741]Except any dickhead with a rifle can put holes in the tube and it's completely fucked the system until you replace it. You can't really compare the same thing to another transportation system, trains will still function if you shoot at the tracks and short of actually cutting them or using an enormous explosion to undermine it the tracks will still function. Hyperloop tubes rely on a near-vacuum, I could make a company waste millions by taking pot-shots with a home-built anti-materiel rifle if I wanted to be ~super sneaky~ about it. More realistically I'd just buy some M2 AP or M8 API and get any number of rifles chambered in .50 BMG since I live in the United States.
I wouldn't need to destroy the system, just keep hitting it every now and again to make it so expensive I start ruining the local economy. There's miles and miles of open land where I could do it from too, catching me would be nigh impossible. I think the system is just too costly and too enticing for sabotage to ever be safe and reliable, I hope they include the possibility of terror attacks in their feasibility research because unfortunately that is the reality we live in these days.
[editline]16th August 2016[/editline]
Though it is a cool idea, I wish they could put it underground where it would be safe and secure but unfortunately this is all happening in California first and I have no idea what the ground around Dubai is like.[/QUOTE]
Any dickhead can fuck up a steel rail, though fucking up a controlled pressure vessel with sensors with be detected immediately unlike as mentioned a 'log' placed upon the a track
If it's built by the slaves of dubai i imagine this turning into the monorail simpsons episode
[QUOTE=Mad.Hatter;50898500]If it's built by the slaves of dubai i imagine this turning into the monorail simpsons episode[/QUOTE]
You're not too far of there.
[video=youtube;RNFesa01llk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk[/video]
[QUOTE=OvB;50897000][editline]16th August 2016[/editline]The turbine doesn't provide propulsion no matter what Thunderf00t says.[/QUOTE]
That's very odd considering that it's stated in the hyperloop alpha document on SpaceX's website that it does
[QUOTE=OvB;50896725]I think if they can get a Hyperloop working, it's greatest potential is in cargo transportation. It might be good for moving freight from coastal ports to inland depots.[/QUOTE]
If there was a substantial demand for this, high speed trains would be built all over the place. Air is cheaper, and the infrastructure is far more flexible compared to rail.
[QUOTE=meek;50898824]That's very odd considering that it's stated in the hyperloop alpha document on SpaceX's website that it does[/QUOTE]
It directs some air out the back for thrust and stores the rest in COPV's for use on the air bearings. The air bearings are it's primary purpose. If you don't use those, you don't need the turbine. So while you could say that it does provide some forward propulsion, that is not it's primary function. The thing that gives it it's speed is the linear motors on the track.
It's also a battery powered axial air compressor, not to be mistaken for a jet engine turbine.
[QUOTE=Adeptus;50898191]With that concept in mind it's as easy to sabotage a normal train too. You just need a crowbar and a log.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=jamzzster;50898370]Any dickhead can fuck up a steel rail, though fucking up a controlled pressure vessel with sensors with be detected immediately unlike as mentioned a 'log' placed upon the a track[/QUOTE]Yeah no, neither of you know what the hell you're talking about because this isn't the 1800's and "a log" is not going to fare well against a modern locomotive. You might [I]might[/I] fuck up a truck but that's pushing it, even if you did somehow manage to seriously damage a train the fact is it can limp to the nearest branch. We're talking about disabling the method of travel, the tracks, with [I]a rifle.[/I] Short of physically cutting through the track, and lmao good luck with that, or [I]using a hundred gallon drum of ANFO[/I] you're not going to do that. Depending on how much damage you caused, let's say you just cut the rail, it would be matter of the breakdown crew running from the nearest yard to put in an angle bar until they can replace the rail section. Anything to keep the number of tied down trains low because heaven forbid they go into holding.
Oh and yeah they would detect a broken rail, that happens with regular pull-aparts and depending on which signal box is interrupted they can narrow it down to individual stretches of track. Let's say you were dumb enough to cut the line right before a circuit gap, that means the railroad company is going to immediately call up the local police or sheriff to go check it out while they get the repair crews moving.
[QUOTE=Adeptus;50898191]And placing a vaccum tube underground on an earthquake zone is a recipe for disaster.[/QUOTE]Hm, I covered that:[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50897741]I wish they could put it underground where it would be safe and secure but unfortunately this is all happening in California first[/QUOTE][QUOTE]I wish they could[/QUOTE]
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
Maybe if you hit a turnout (the part where tracks branch apart) then it would be big fucking deal, but if you notice those almost always have extremely sturdy construction because they take hard pounding every day. That would still be a relatively quick fix compared to replacing a section of hyperloop tube and it would [U]definitely[/U] be cheaper, welding holes in a pressure vessel just isn't a good idea so depending on the extent of damage they would probably need to replace the actual tube. Definitely if you used explosives, since the tube is elevated you could use a primitive EFP "fired" straight up into the tube by a shaped charge (again, ANFO will do) which has shown up in IEDs in both Iraq and Afghanistan. There's instruction materials for their construction online (though urea nitrate is used in lieu of ammonium nitrate) and [I]all[/I] of the materials are easily available.
Really for a starry-eyed extremist wanting to inflict serious damage that would be the next best thing if he couldn't figure out how to take down an aircraft.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
Of course putting aside the "well what about terrorist attacks" aspect there are some engineering challenges to building miles and miles of pressure vessel and the proposed benefits of the system like "it won't take up a lot of land!" are bullshit. It's going to be a rail line in practice, so when they put it out they'll have to have an access road large enough to accommodate construction equipment (you [I]will[/I] need to replace those tubes eventually) and I'm not exactly sure how they're going to build it in California with it's hot sun and cooler nights without a lot of expansion joints. Those joints are a [B]bitch[/B] to deal with on railroads so I can only imagine what something like a hyperloop would be like, and Dubai would probably be even worse. This isn't a small challenge at all, it's significant enough to throw a kink into the plan and I can't quite figure out how they plan on having a tube that's going to be shrinking and expanding but also able to reciprocate among it's friends while containing a low pressure environment.
Terrorism is just a small aspect of the thing when it's on the way to being built, this is a fundamental part of the system that makes me question it's viability.
[QUOTE=AnonymaPizza;50898563]You're not too far of there.
[video=youtube;RNFesa01llk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk[/video][/QUOTE]
TF hasn't really read up on the subject and has limited understanding of what he's taking about.
He's just trying to make a viral video.
[QUOTE=AnonymaPizza;50898563]You're not too far of there.
[video=youtube;RNFesa01llk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk[/video][/QUOTE]
Have you seen their other videos. Goodbye credibility.
[QUOTE=OvB;50897000]I don't think it would replace normal rail but it might be useful in some situations. Time will tell.
[editline]16th August 2016[/editline]
The turbine doesn't provide propulsion no matter what Thunderf00t says. The turbine provides air for the air bearings that it rides on. Forward motion is provided by linear motors. Though many designs (and I think the design HyperloopOne is currently working on) use maglev for the levitation instead of air bearings, meaning it would have no turbine.[/QUOTE]
I still have to question what air would it compress in a near vaccuum, though honestly the propultion method could easily be replaced, what's more worrying is the pressurization, temperature warping of the tubes, the stupid high cost of the project. Simple fact is, maintenance would be painful and expensive. In the end, if the hyperpoop becomes a thing, it's going to be a far more watered down version that can actually maintain at least a slightly lower air pressure and that'll be it.
[QUOTE=jamzzster;50898370]Any dickhead can fuck up a steel rail, though fucking up a controlled pressure vessel with sensors with be detected immediately unlike as mentioned a 'log' placed upon the a track[/QUOTE]
It's actually pretty hard to deliberately derail a train:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fAnkYRw8Bk[/media]
[QUOTE=paul simon;50899785]TF hasn't really read up on the subject and has limited understanding of what he's taking about.
He's just trying to make a viral video.[/QUOTE]I finally looked at that video just now and gave up after a few minutes because the guy's voice is just so tediously boring so I gave up. Plus the whole "BUSTED!" thing in the thumbnail makes me think you're right.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50900101]I finally looked at that video just now and gave up after a few minutes because the guy's voice is just so tediously boring so I gave up. Plus the whole "BUSTED!" thing in the thumbnail makes me think you're right.[/QUOTE]
To sum it up:
He's under the impression that the concept renderings for ONE of the proposed concepts is THE final design, even though there's not one but SEVERAL designs being considered. (see: hyperloop design competition)
He also for some reason has made up the idea that the turbine drives the thing, which really just shows that he's barely skimmed through information about the subject - The turbine is for removing air buildup and some other functions, but not propulsion. Propulsion is managed by linear electric motors.
[QUOTE=paul simon;50900208]To sum it up:
He's under the impression that the concept renderings for ONE of the proposed concepts is THE final design, even though there's not one but SEVERAL designs being considered. (see: hyperloop design competition)
He also for some reason has made up the idea that the turbine drives the thing, which really just shows that he's barely skimmed through information about the subject - The turbine is for removing air buildup and some other functions, but not propulsion. Propulsion is managed by linear electric motors.[/QUOTE]
I watched the video, and I think you're right, but he's not wrong about the actual tube itself.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50900101]I finally looked at that video just now and gave up after a few minutes because the guy's voice is just so tediously boring so I gave up. Plus the whole "BUSTED!" thing in the thumbnail makes me think you're right.[/QUOTE]
Someone having a boring voice doesn't make an argument false.
[QUOTE=paul simon;50900208]To sum it up:
He's under the impression that the concept renderings for ONE of the proposed concepts is THE final design, even though there's not one but SEVERAL designs being considered. (see: hyperloop design competition)
He also for some reason has made up the idea that the turbine drives the thing, which really just shows that he's barely skimmed through information about the subject - The turbine is for removing air buildup and some other functions, but not propulsion. Propulsion is managed by linear electric motors.[/QUOTE]
Where does the design of it get mentioned in his video?
He's addressed the turbine comment in the 2nd video and you're wrong about that, it does provide thrust:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDwe2M-LDZQ[/media]
[QUOTE=Hoffa1337;50899898]It's actually pretty hard to deliberately derail a train:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fAnkYRw8Bk[/media][/QUOTE]
Seeing that train run pretty much without rails reminded me of a cartoon that I watched as a kid and was kinda based on that premise.
Looking it up, it was Jim Button. So damn glad I found it again.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50896646]In Dubai of all places? That's like the last place you would be wanting this sort of thing to be showcased considering it will be built by slave labour in a horrifically corrupt city that's entering economic decline.
If it's even built, most of the budget will be sucked out through corruption and ineptitude.[/QUOTE]
whats up with your hate boner for dubai have you ever even went there? its like where every business puts there office in the middle east. corruption? maybe. ineptitude? not really. economic decline? not really either. slave labour? they do get payed, and they do it willingly, but they dont get what they were promised
DUBAI OF ALL PLACES?
i mean, dubai is known for being a nice place as a tourist or a citizen
[QUOTE=Maadz;50900622]whats up with your hate boner for dubai have you ever even went there? its like where every business puts there office in the middle east. corruption? maybe. ineptitude? not really. economic decline? not really either. slave labour? they do get payed, and they do it willingly, but they dont get what they were promised[/quote]
Dubai is heavily corrupt and full of ineptitude, as are the other arab oil states in the area including Saudi Arabia. the latter of these countries is likely to go bankrupt in the next five years
they largely rely on western expats (most of them rejects from the west who couldn't make it here) paid exorbitant wages to run industries that these countries don't have the human capital to maintain, let alone establish. they're fake oil economies that rely heavily on the direct or indirect pillar of oil. once it runs out the expats will leave, they'll go bankrupt, and then sink back into the irrelevance their inbred aristocratic rulers have condemned them to for the past half century.
also I'm pretty sure it's slave labour. their passports are confiscated and they are forced to work without wages often.
[quote]DUBAI OF ALL PLACES?
i mean, dubai is known for being a nice place as a tourist or a citizen[/QUOTE]
minus when the overworked sewer network collapses and sewage seeps out into the streets and beaches
plus virtually all water is generated by unsustainably expensive desalination, any damage to the infrastructure of which would precipitate a crisis within days due to the fact there are 0 water reserves
also you only get some decent treatment if you're white. even then most expats get their passport taken off them during the duration of their stay and a lot of control is put over them. the absence of any kind of bankruptcy law means that people can be thrown into prison for their debt too
oh yeah the city has virtually no proper drainage either so the rare times it does rain the streets are inundated with water
By the way, this is a tank car, it is made out of 11.1mm thick steel iirc (12.7mm thick if after 2009 i think, as per new standards), this is what happens when you induce a vacuum into one. excuse the poor video quality, it happens around 23 second mark.
Plain old atmospheric pressure on the outside
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpWeU2fvFGs[/media]
11.1mm thick steel is pretty thick, and it gets heavy fast. Just trying to help quantify the effect of this low pressure for people.
[editline]17th August 2016[/editline]
They did it by introducing a defect (dent) into the shell, there are examples without even this being done.
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