Family with Two Toddlers Rescued at Sea, Sparking Controversy
52 replies, posted
[img]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2014/04/10/us/sailboat/sailboat-articleLarge.jpg[/img]
[quote]SAN DIEGO — Six days after a family of four found themselves helpless and adrift in a sailboat far into the Pacific with a vomiting, feverish 1-year-old, a Navy warship delivered them safely on Wednesday to San Diego, where they had begun their attempted around-the world voyage before the child was born.
The Rebel Heart, the 36-foot sailboat that had been their home for seven years, is at the bottom of the ocean 900 miles off Mexico, sunk by rescuers because it was taking on water after losing its steering and most of its communications.
A satellite phone ping from the boat on Thursday set off a huge rescue effort that involved sky diving National Guard members, three federal agencies, a plane, a frigate and scores of personnel. It also prompted a serious debate over parenting, and the propriety of hitting the high seas with two young children.
The Navy warship, the U.S.S. Vandegrift, docked at Naval Air Station North Island with the Kaufman family safely aboard and the child recovering from her illness, said Lt. Lenaya Rotklein, a Navy spokeswoman.[/quote]
[url]http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/us/rescued-at-sea-family-is-safe-in-san-diego.html?_r=0&referrer=[/url]
This is raising quite a stir with the sailing community. There's a split between folks who are heavily criticizing the parenting choices of the Kaufmans, who brought two extremely young children on a sailboat for a circumnavigation, and those who are applauding them. People are calling them reckless and negligent, but I must disagree! I'm totally in love with the idea of sailing, and if I ever have a family, I would love to go see the world with them. That's an opportunity that very few children get, and I think that experiencing such an adventure firsthand is something that would do a developing mind a lot of good. Many kids in the Western world grow up in the quiet comfort of suburbia, and forget that there's a world beyond [I]cul de sacs[/I] and minivans. I wouldn't want that for mine. I'd want them to be thirsty for adventure and new ideas.
Sailing has its risks, but what doesn't? The benefits far outweigh the potential dangers, in my opinion.
Taking young young children (read babies) to remote locations without access to medical facilities is asking for trouble. Babies get sick and injured really easily.
They're too fucking young to even enjoy the experience too.
While I agree with taking children to experience the world, I think that 1-year-olds are a bit too young. I think probably it'd be better to take them around 5-7.
Little bit more:
[quote]LOS ANGELES — As her family began what was supposed to be a monthslong journey in a 36-foot sailboat from Mexico to New Zealand, Charlotte Kaufman wrote openly of her misgivings about taking her two daughters — ages 1 and 3 — to sail the South Pacific, with her husband as captain and herself as the crew.
“I think this may be the stupidest thing we have ever done,” she wrote in her trip blog, before concluding: “It is a difficult self-imposed isolation that is completely worth it.”
Less than two weeks later, 900 miles off the coast of Mexico, Charlotte and her husband, Eric, unable to steer their ship, the Rebel Heart, called for emergency help. Their younger daughter, Lyra, who had been treated for salmonella just weeks before the trip, was covered in a rash and had a fever. After a complicated rescue effort orchestrated by the California Air National Guard and the United States Navy and Coast Guard, the Kaufman family was on a Navy ship heading to San Diego, scheduled to arrive on Wednesday[/quote]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/08/us/2-tots-a-sailboat-and-a-storm-over-parenting.html?hp&target=comments&_r=0[/url]
I'd rather not take toddlers at sea. Not only is it stupidly dangerous and inconvenient, but they'd be way too young to even appreciate the experience, let alone remember it.
[QUOTE=The Maestro;44517515]While I agree with taking children to experience the world, I think that 1-year-olds are a bit too young. I think probably it'd be better to take them around 5-7.[/QUOTE]
That'd be ideal yeah, but I'd strongly consider taking my kids along if they were younger. One is a bit too young, I think, but two or three? A circumnavigation is no quick jaunt. You'll be at sea for two or three years, if you're taking your time and enjoying yourself. Your kid would be spending one of the most crucial periods of childhood development seeing the world in a way that very few people do, and I think that's beautiful.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;44517547]That'd be ideal yeah, but I'd strongly consider taking my kids along if they were younger. One is a bit too young, I think, but two or three? A circumnavigation is no quick jaunt. You'll be at sea for two or three years, if you're taking your time and enjoying yourself. Your kid would be spending one of the most crucial periods of childhood development seeing the world in a way that very few people do, and I think that's beautiful.[/QUOTE]
Can't disagree there at all. Might be difficult keeping them entertained afterwords though :v:
[QUOTE=The Maestro;44517557]Can't disagree there at all. Might be difficult keeping them entertained afterwords though :v:[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but spending weeks on end in the middle of the ocean on a tiny little sailboat sounds [I]pretty darn[/I] zen, to me! It's timeless, out there. Anybody who grows up like that would come out the other side with the patience of a monk.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;44517547]That'd be ideal yeah, but I'd strongly consider taking my kids along if they were younger. One is a bit too young, I think, but two or three? A circumnavigation is no quick jaunt. You'll be at sea for two or three years, if you're taking your time and enjoying yourself. Your kid would be spending one of the most crucial periods of childhood development seeing the world in a way that very few people do, and I think that's beautiful.[/QUOTE]
How is taking them out at two or three any better than 5-7? 5-7 would be better considering they'll have a better memory.
I'm all for taking out your kids on trips as long as you're not some guy who one day, decides that we need an adventure! Without proper training. To me, that's irresponsible and childish. They are your kids for christ sake.
I don't know if I agree with the OP on this situation.
Personally, I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want and any misfortune that finds them is their own fault.
But as much as it sounds really cool to have your kids with you to sail like that, make memories. They're pretty damn young and won't remember it very well. Hell one of them is still an infant. As it is small children hate being stuck in a boat for extended periods of time. And that's completely ignoring the fact it's dangerous as hell and the logistics of taking care of small children like that is really difficult in the middle of the ocean.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;44517618]How is taking them out at two or three any better than 5-7? 5-7 would be better considering they'll have a better memory.
I'm all for taking out your kids on trips as long as you're not some guy who one day, decides that we need an adventure! Without proper training. To me, that's irresponsible and childish. They are your kids for christ sake.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it's better, just that it's personally acceptable.
And the Kaufman's are no amateur sailors; they'd been at it for at least seven years before deciding to tackle their circumnavigation, and had been out at sea on their actual circumnavigation for well over a year, before their vessel broke down and started taking on water. It was due to no fault of their own.
Here's a statement from the mom, defending their decision:
[quote]"We understand there are those who question our decision to sail with our family, but please know that this is how our family has lived for seven years, and when we departed on this journey more than a year ago, we were then and remain today confident that we prepared as well as any sailing crew could," the San Diego couple said in a statement from aboard the USS Vandegrift.
"The ocean is one of the greatest forces of nature, and it always has the potential to overcome those who live on or near it. We are proud of our choices and our preparation," the statement said[/quote]
The fact they had to call for help to be rescued, with two young children to take care of, proves they fucked up badly. Once you have to call for help you lose the right to claim what you did was a good idea.
That's how I see it anyways. If you read that woman's blog you'll see that she made a cake on that boat, then when her 3 year old asked if her mom made something and could she have some, the mom lied and told her daughter there was no cake! No cake was a lie!
The mom excused it by saying she needed that cake for herself, I guess she was having such a hard time she needed a treat. If SHE's having such a hard time and she's an adult who wanted this trip, imagine how hard it was for the 3 year old who had no choice but to go on this trip.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44517684]The fact they had to call for help to be rescued, with two young children to take care of, proves they fucked up badly. Once you have to call for help you lose the right to claim what you did was a good idea.
That's how I see it anyways. If you read that woman's blog you'll see that she made a cake on that boat, then when her 3 year old asked if her mom made something and could she have some, the mom lied and told her daughter there was no cake! No cake was a lie!
The mom excused it by saying she needed that cake for herself, I guess she was having such a hard time she needed a treat. If SHE's having such a hard time and she's an adult who wanted this trip, imagine how hard it was for the 3 year old who had no choice but to go on this trip.[/QUOTE]
Their ship malfunctioned. There was nothing they could have done to prevent that. It happens. It's just bad luck. However, the story has a happy ending, because they were prepared for such an eventuality. Not all emergencies can be prevented or avoided, but they can be dealt with, and the Kaufman's dealt with it in the best way that they were able.
I'm not sure what the cake has to do with anything, though.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44517684]The fact they had to call for help to be rescued, with two young children to take care of, proves they fucked up badly. Once you have to call for help you lose the right to claim what you did was a good idea.
That's how I see it anyways. If you read that woman's blog you'll see that she made a cake on that boat, then when her 3 year old asked if her mom made something and could she have some, the mom lied and told her daughter there was no cake! No cake was a lie!
The mom excused it by saying she needed that cake for herself, I guess she was having such a hard time she needed a treat. If SHE's having such a hard time and she's an adult who wanted this trip, imagine how hard it was for the 3 year old who had no choice but to go on this trip.[/QUOTE]
So if a boat starts to sink due to no fault of the captain, calling for help means the entire trip was a bad idea? That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day.
Not to mention a 3 year old would have no idea what was going on. It wouldn't be hard for a 3 year old at all, it's before they start public schooling, and to be honest, it would have saved them several years of public schooling bullshit and taught them valuable life lessons and patience. I'm with BDA on this one.
You sound like the type of person who'd overly shelter their kids and make their entire lives boring as fuck.
People are judging them harshly and are pissed meanwhile thousands of children are being abused, starved, etc right in their own communities. CPS and social services are a utter joke and complete failure. Why isn't that sparking controversy or is that just accepted now?
Yeah a freak malfunction happened while they where on sea. There are risks to everything, it isn't like they abandoned the child or was mistreating it. I've been traveling sense I was born, my first flight was at like 1-2 years old. There is a chance that the plane could malfunction and crash..does that mean my parents are assholes no. I grew up moving around all the time various states and countries, I have a worldly view and know many different cultures while some of my friends have never been out of state. I think experiencing something like this at a young age (Maybe not a new born) is beneficial and educational. You learn a lot of skills on boats that can help you in general.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;44517578]Maybe, but spending weeks on end in the middle of the ocean on a tiny little sailboat sounds [I]pretty darn[/I] zen, to me! It's timeless, out there. Anybody who grows up like that would come out the other side with the patience of a monk.[/QUOTE]
I'd have to disagree, wouldn't the lack of social contact with the same age group also affect a kid negatively?
[QUOTE=mchapra;44517840]I'd have to disagree, wouldn't the lack of social contact with the same age group also affect a kid negatively?[/QUOTE]
Nope. They're still at a young enough developmental age that it would have minimal effect on them when they're reintroduced to kids their own age, particularly the baby. If anything, they'd find themselves annoyed at the extreme immaturity of most kids their age after spending an experience that's actually valuable and teaches them life skills.
I'd trust these people with kids far before I'd trust that one lady in Walmart with 6 children sprinting about.
I grew up my whole life around and on boats, I have owned 2 now and captained for 4 years. I love the sea but in comparison my girlfriend had a traumatic experience young at sea and now fears any kind of boat or water and its been very stressful for her, Its a very impressionable age.
[QUOTE=mchapra;44517840]I'd have to disagree, wouldn't the lack of social contact with the same age group also affect a kid negatively?[/QUOTE]
Only in the sense that they'd be very mature for their age, I think. Otherwise, they'd probably be similar to your average homeschooler. The length of the voyage is important to consider, as well as what age you're taking them out at.
[QUOTE=Aetna;44517728]So if a boat starts to sink due to no fault of the captain, calling for help means the entire trip was a bad idea? That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day.
Not to mention a 3 year old would have no idea what was going on. It wouldn't be hard for a 3 year old at all, it's before they start public schooling, and to be honest, it would have saved them several years of public schooling bullshit and taught them valuable life lessons and patience. I'm with BDA on this one.
You sound like the type of person who'd overly shelter their kids and make their entire lives boring as fuck.[/QUOTE]
This was an elective adventure, you're pretending not to notice that for some reason. When you choose to do something risky and dangerous, and it goes wrong, at least have the honesty to admit you made a mistake. These people refuse to acknowledge they made a mistake.
These people chose to bring two very young children on a sailing trip across an ocean. That's no joke, not something 'fun' you just do.
The cake thing just shows the parents' real mindset. It's all about them, what they want. This is NOT about the kids, not about the kids seeing the world or some shit like that. The kids are an accessory they took with them that's all. That's why the mom could bake a cake while her daughter was sleeping, then lie about it afterwards instead of sharing it with her kid. Kids LIVE for cake, who doesn't know that? If this trip had anything to do with showing the kids an awesome experience, what beats eating cake on a sailboat for a kid?
Mom and dad should have done this trip before starting the family, alternatively they could have taken the kids sailing up and down the coast, not out into the ocean. The 3 year old would have just as much fun sailing around the bay as going around the world.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44518202]This was an elective adventure, you're pretending not to notice that for some reason. When you choose to do something risky and dangerous, and it goes wrong, at least have the honesty to admit you made a mistake. These people refuse to acknowledge they made a mistake.
These people chose to bring two very young children on a sailing trip across an ocean. That's no joke, not something 'fun' you just do.
The cake thing just shows the parents' real mindset. It's all about them, what they want. This is NOT about the kids, not about the kids seeing the world or some shit like that. The kids are an accessory they took with them that's all. That's why the mom could bake a cake while her daughter was sleeping, then lie about it afterwards instead of sharing it with her kid. Kids LIVE for cake, who doesn't know that? If this trip had anything to do with showing the kids an awesome experience, what beats eating cake on a sailboat for a kid?
Mom and dad should have done this trip before starting the family, alternatively they could have taken the kids sailing up and down the coast, not out into the ocean. The 3 year old would have just as much fun sailing around the bay as going around the world.[/QUOTE]
Seriously dude? How the fuck do you think your ancestors got to the Americas? People like you who try to dictate what parents do with their children are a huge problem with society. Both parents were experienced in sailing and encountered and unexpected problem after spending considerable time preparing and taking the proper precautions for their voyage. SHIT HAPPENS. It's not their fault and they didn't do anything wrong.
Getting in a car is an elective adventure too; is it your fault if the engine malfunctions? They made no mistake. In fact, they did everything right. They had all their safety gear in order, and knew what to do when things turned South. They were experienced and prepared, and it all turned out okay (except for losing their ship and home). Some things are outside of your control, especially out there on the sea.
You're being totally ridiculous about this.
[quote]I made cake last night, in force five conditions. I actually like force five on this boat (we had the same kind of conditions on our last crossing of the Sea of Cortez and I had a great time.) The only problem is force five with tiny kids on board. Oh well. I made the cake once the kids were in bed and falling asleep. I burned more calories making it then I did calories combined in the whole cake. When Cora woke up this morning she asked for some of the treat I was making last night because she had smelled it baking as she fell asleep. I lied and told her we ate it up; all the while, the rest of the cake sat on the counter by the dish rack, just waiting for Eric and I to devour it this evening with a cup of coffee, in silence, once the girls were asleep. Sorry for lying to you, Cora. One day, when you are a parent, you will understand. Please know, if you ever read this, I did give you FIVE gumdrops as a conciliatory offer.[/quote]
Based on this paragraph, Cecil here is able to say with authority that the Kaufman's are terrible parents who only think of their children as accessories, because they are selfish and heartless. Not giving your kids cake is tantamount to child abuse, apparently.
Get over yourself, man.
[QUOTE=Aetna;44517859]Nope. They're still at a young enough developmental age that it would have minimal effect on them when they're reintroduced to kids their own age, particularly the baby. If anything, they'd find themselves annoyed at the extreme immaturity of most kids their age after spending an experience that's actually valuable and teaches them life skills.[/QUOTE]
Teaching them valuable life skills...at an age where they're content to draw on walls and poop at random? Like, "life skills" would totally be a valid reason if the kid was around 5-6+, as by that point they've developed enough to actually grasp complex concepts. But a 1-4 year old isn't going to remember this stuff, or give a damn shit.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44518481]Teaching them valuable life skills...at an age where they're content to draw on walls and poop at random? Like, "life skills" would totally be a valid reason if the kid was around 5-6+, as by that point they've developed enough to actually grasp complex concepts. But a 1-4 year old isn't going to remember this stuff, or give a damn shit.[/QUOTE]
By the end of their voyage, the older girl [I]would[/I] have been five or six, though. She'd definitely remember. The younger one, maybe not, but the younger one wasn't originally part of the picture. They set sail before Mama Kaufman was pregnant with her.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;44518491]By the end of their voyage, the older girl [I]would[/I] have been five or six, though. She'd definitely remember. The younger one, maybe not, but the younger one wasn't originally part of the picture. They set sail before Mama Kaufman was pregnant with her.[/QUOTE]
Even then, they're at an age where they likely won't remember everything, and again, would be more content fucking about with other kids rather than being trapped on a boat no doubt. Plus this is going to cut into their education, unless the parents manage to keep a rigorous educational system in place to ensure their kids can read and write to the level they'd need to when then finally head home.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44518202]This was an elective adventure, you're pretending not to notice that for some reason. When you choose to do something risky and dangerous, and it goes wrong, at least have the honesty to admit you made a mistake. These people refuse to acknowledge they made a mistake.
These people chose to bring two very young children on a sailing trip across an ocean. That's no joke, not something 'fun' you just do.
The cake thing just shows the parents' real mindset. It's all about them, what they want. This is NOT about the kids, not about the kids seeing the world or some shit like that. The kids are an accessory they took with them that's all. That's why the mom could bake a cake while her daughter was sleeping, then lie about it afterwards instead of sharing it with her kid. Kids LIVE for cake, who doesn't know that? If this trip had anything to do with showing the kids an awesome experience, what beats eating cake on a sailboat for a kid?
Mom and dad should have done this trip before starting the family, alternatively they could have taken the kids sailing up and down the coast, not out into the ocean. The 3 year old would have just as much fun sailing around the bay as going around the world.[/QUOTE]
You're right, why take your kids anywhere because something, somewhere at some point may occur that is beyond your control.
They're not your kids, they're not your responsibility nor is it your place to judge the parents. Thankfully they're okay, my grandparents used to sail frequently (from the Chesapeake to the Virgin Islands) and bring their young children, it's a lifestyle choice. Is a family that likes flying at fault when their plane malfunctions? Is a family at fault for taking their kids on a road trip and the tire blows out sending them into a ditch?
[QUOTE=Aetna;44518365]Seriously dude? How the fuck do you think your ancestors got to the Americas? People like you who try to dictate what parents do with their children are a huge problem with society. Both parents were experienced in sailing and encountered and unexpected problem after spending considerable time preparing and taking the proper precautions for their voyage. SHIT HAPPENS. It's not their fault and they didn't do anything wrong.[/QUOTE]
I'm not dictating anything. They had the right to sell all their possessions and buy a boat to sail the world, I'm not against that. They had the right to take very young children, babies really, on that trip, I do not favor laws against that.
I'm simply saying they are dumbasses for doing it that way.
As far as teaching their kids, giving them life experiences like some people think this is about, why not sail around locally? Does anyone really believe kids that young would know the difference?
These people were hotdogging, looking for something they could brag about. That would explain why it had to be around the world. It doesn't make you look as awesome if you tell people you took the kids out sailing for the day, so do a lot of people.
[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;44518587]I'm not dictating anything. They had the right to sell all their possessions and buy a boat to sail the world, I'm not against that. They had the right to take very young children, babies really, on that trip, I do not favor laws against that.
I'm simply saying they are dumbasses for doing it that way.
As far as teaching their kids, giving them life experiences like some people think this is about, why not sail around locally? Does anyone really believe kids that young would know the difference?
These people were hotdogging, looking for something they could brag about. That would explain why it had to be around the world. It doesn't make you look as awesome if you tell people you took the kids out sailing for the day, so do a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
This is how I want my kids [U]not[/U] to be. Ignorant, bitter, and judgmental. It's why I hope to be able to take them all over the world; to expose them to cultures, philosophies, and ways of life that are vastly different than their own, so that they grow up thirsty for more.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;44518803]This is how I want my kids [U]not[/U] to be. Ignorant, bitter, and judgmental. It's why I hope to be able to take them all over the world; to expose them to cultures, philosophies, and ways of life that are vastly different than their own, so that they grow up thirsty for more.[/QUOTE]
I was raised this way, but I wasn't too interested at the time; I look back and realize that I was a little shit for that. I have gone to 30 states (it's like another country, pretty much), Canada and the UK.
You're going to have the kids that don't care at the time like me, but you are also going to have kids that do care. Just hope that you get the ones that actually care.
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