"About 80% of incarcerated individuals are low-income, and nearly two-thirds of their family members
30 replies, posted
[url]http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/9/15/families-torn-apart-by-criminal-justice-system.html[/url]
[QUOTE]With more than 2.4 million people incarcerated in U.S. jails and prisons, the burden of mass incarceration falls on their families, many of whom are unable to pay off thousands of dollars in debt after paying court-related fees and other costs, according to a report published Monday.
The average family of an inmate incurs about $13,607 in debt for court-related costs, according to a report by the Ella Baker Center, Forward Together and Research Action Design, organizations that advocate for criminal justice and other social justice reforms. More than one-third of families go into debt to pay for phone calls and visits to keep in touch with a loved one behind bars, the study found.
Of the family members responsible for these costs, 83 percent were women, the report found. [B]Many families surveyed for the study were struggling to pay for food or rent.[/B]
The researchers surveyed more than 1,000 formerly incarcerated people, their family members and employers in 2014, and they conducted 34 focus groups with those affected by incarceration in 14 states.
“This study confirms what society has ignored for too long — that already vulnerable families and the women who sustain them are being plummeted into greater poverty, stress, and strain when their loved ones are incarcerated,decades of bad policy have torn families apart, typically leaving mothers to make up the difference and bear the brunt of these costs."
We must enact policies that restructure the system, remove barriers, and restore opportunities to create lasting change that reinvests in the families and communities most harmed by mass incarceration,” said Azadeh Zohrabi, a national campaigner at the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights.[/QUOTE]
Poor and/or uneducated people are more likely to turn to crime? Who would've thought.
To fix crime you need to fix the economy.
[quote]This study confirms what society has ignored for too long[/quote]
Society hasn't ignored that though, has it?
From what ive heard, the American jail system is pure madness.
Another nail in the coffin for the libertarian ideal,
You should never have people who make money off keeping people in jail.
Privately run prisons seem to be a huge part of why there is an emphasis on aimless punishment, and less of an emphasis on rehabilitation.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48693684]Poor and/or uneducated people are more likely to turn to crime? Who would've thought.
To fix crime you need to fix the economy.
Society hasn't ignored that though, has it?[/QUOTE]
Okay but hear me out: Why give them [I]our[/I] money, when we can make [I]more[/I] money off them being arrested? It's Genius!
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48693692]Okay but hear me out: Why give them [I]our[/I] money, when we can make [I]more[/I] money off them being arrested? It's Genius![/QUOTE]
As St33m said, whoever these 'we" are need to be reformed. Also people should not be sent to prison for having some weed on them or other petty crime like that. Bringing poor people up to standard would bring in more money long term though. Maybe not for the "we" people but as a whole.
[QUOTE=St33m;48693691]Privately run prisons seem to be a huge part of why there is an emphasis on aimless punishment, and less of an emphasis on rehabilitation.[/QUOTE]
Honestly there is just a generally accepted belief, especially among the more conservative parts of the population, that harsher punishment means people are less likely to commit crime purely out of fear of said punishments. You're fully expected to just work hard and sort of claw your way out of your poor situation on your own.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48693697]people should not be sent to prison for having some weed on them or other petty crime like that.[/QUOTE]
Contrary to popular belief you don't generally get sent to jail for small amounts of weed.
Of course most criminals are low income what the fuck do you expect
Someone who's rich and lives in a mansion isn't going to rob a store or mug people in an alley
[QUOTE=Anderan;48693706]
Contrary to popular belief you don't generally get sent to jail for small amounts of weed.[/QUOTE]
Define small. Couldn't find much on US weed laws, but overall it seems like about a year jail time. Could be wrong because as I said I couldn't find much info on this.
[QUOTE=Anderan;48693706]Honestly there is just a generally accepted belief, especially among the more conservative parts of the population, that harsher punishment means people are less likely to commit crime purely out of fear of said punishments. You're fully expected to just work hard and sort of claw your way out of your poor situation on your own.
[/QUOTE]
I could imagine them lacking perspective as for the richer part of the population there ain't really much other reasons to turn to crime other than vain reasons. While some of the poor turn to crime out of necessity.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48693770]Define small. Couldn't find much on US weed laws, but overall it seems like about a year jail time. Could be wrong because as I said I couldn't find much info on this.[/QUOTE]
All depends on what state you're in/what cop you run into.
Oh man, statistics is so fun. I'll bet you that these 80% were arrested and jailed on 20% of all possible charges, probably on like drug charges like marijuana.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48693715]Of course most criminals are low income what the fuck do you expect
Someone who's rich and lives in a mansion isn't going to rob a store or mug people in an alley[/QUOTE]
And they tend to be able to afford a crack legal team that can get them out of the hot water they do get themselves into. I bet you'd also notice the same trend if you look at conviction rates VS charges scaled to wealth.
Why the FUCK are prisons even private, they're literally an instrument of the state and as such should be wholly run by the state. It defies belief that people even think that privatisation of the prison system is a good idea. This is why I can't take libertarians seriously.
[editline]16th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Levelog;48693814]All depends on what state you're in/what cop you run into.[/QUOTE]
Let's not forget the race factor.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48693684]Poor and/or uneducated people are more likely to turn to crime? Who would've thought.
To fix crime you need to fix the economy.
Society hasn't ignored that though, has it?[/QUOTE]
Not that simple, poor Americans don't have access to the same legal advice others have, and the prosecution often pushes for some kind of plea deal before any trial has started, what happens is they usually sign that deal and go off to jail where as people with the means get a good lawyer and get reduced sentences or even community service in leu of jail time
Plus there is a huge bias in the severity and the length of sentences between minorities and non minorities in many parts of the US. Two people doing the same crime, one gets high security/solitary and no parole, the other goes to medium security has a normal cell and gets parole
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48694103]Why the FUCK are prisons even private, they're literally an instrument of the state and as such should be wholly run by the state. It defies belief that people even think that privatisation of the prison system is a good idea. This is why I can't take libertarians seriously.
[editline]16th September 2015[/editline]
Let's not forget the race factor.[/QUOTE]
State prison is funded entirely by the state where as a private prison is treated like a business, thus making it cheaper for the state.
For all those foreigners here pulling their hair trying to understand private prisons, its because Republicans, and that's not making it up, they platform for strict sentences, three strikes, mandatory sentences, perminent disenfranchisement and then when prison costs soared they pushed to keep those costs down by making our prison system into a private slavery system where the inmates are expected to rot instead of be reformed.
It's so bad that in most states if you are a convicted felon, you can never vote again, ever.
Let that sink in, even though you've reformed and done your time you are still not allowed to go back to normal society
[editline]16th September 2015[/editline]
Three of the Republican hopefuls have privatised prisons and bragged about how they saved costs
[QUOTE=Sableye;48694237]Three of the Republican hopefuls have privatised prisons and bragged about how they saved costs[/QUOTE]
There is some horrendous dystopian joke in the fact that the part who violently advocate 'The good and right in society' 'The good old family values' 'Give me liberty or give me death', are also the ones who seem to reduce their fellow human beings to numbers on a chart with no hesitation.
Also the bail and municipal fine system comes down disproportionately hard on lower income people.
It's the reason why some shelters for homeless people don't turn in the lowest rung drug dealers. They come out from prison twice as worse.
[QUOTE=suzume;48694345]Also the bail and municipal fine system comes down disproportionately hard on lower income people.[/QUOTE]
Everything about the US prison system has become a reflection of the grim European system half the bill of rights was written to prevent, ya its a system geared to keep the poor in and those that can pay out
Javert would be right at home with the US justice system
I'm surprised these people aren't revolting.
End the for profit prison system and the war on drugs
[QUOTE=Ccharlton;48694225]State prison is funded entirely by the state where as a private prison is treated like a business, thus making it cheaper for the state.[/QUOTE]
Over here most services get more expensive as they're privatised.
If the state is somewhat competent and hires business people it's only logical it costs less than an enterprise that in addition to operation costs turns a profit and is still financed by the government.
I assume the issue is more that in the case of the US the state facilities are either managed badly or that someone is lobbying and/or cooking numbers and/or reducing service quality to make private prisons seem overall more attractive.
[QUOTE=St33m;48693691]From what ive heard, the American jail system is pure madness.
Another nail in the coffin for the libertarian ideal,
You should never have people who make money off keeping people in jail.
Privately run prisons seem to be a huge part of why there is an emphasis on aimless punishment, and less of an emphasis on rehabilitation.[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal"]Kids for cash.[/URL]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48693684]Poor and/or uneducated people are more likely to turn to crime? Who would've thought. To fix crime you need to fix the economy. Society hasn't ignored that though, has it?[/QUOTE] Might try actually living in america before committing to such a sweeping generalization. Without for profit prisons, the state economies of of Lousiana, Alabama and Mississippi would collapse. For profit prisons need prisoners. You can guess how the cycle ends.
[QUOTE=Anderan;48693706]Honestly there is just a generally accepted belief, especially among the more conservative parts of the population, that harsher punishment means people are less likely to commit crime purely out of fear of said punishments. You're fully expected to just work hard and sort of claw your way out of your poor situation on your own.
Contrary to popular belief you don't generally get sent to jail for small amounts of weed.[/QUOTE]
There have been countless major studies demonstrating that this line of thinking is deeply flawed, at least in regards to prison environments. Nations with punitive prisons have been proven to be less effective than those with rehabilitative prisons in nearly every measurable sense. They have substantially higher prison populations, rates of recidivism, rape and other violence within prisons, higher rates of prisoner self harm and suicide attempts, etc. Basically, rehabilitative prisons hold fewer prisoners for shorter sentences and in safer, more comfortable, and more emotionally healthy environments, complete with proper educational programs, job training, and emotional and psychiatric healthcare, and this results in substantially lower rates of repeat offenders.
As far as the bootstrap approach to poverty management... well, it's a pretty ideology, but not a realistic one. The vast majority of poor people aren't poor because they made bad decisions or had poor work ethic, they are poor because they were born poor, and there is [I]very little[/I] upward mobility for the poor and middle class in the US. Working hard and getting a good job and climbing your way out of poverty is easier preached than performed, because all the dice are loaded. Ours is a predatory system, or at least a highly obstructive one.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48716862]As far as the bootstrap approach to poverty management... well, it's a pretty ideology, but not a realistic one. The vast majority of poor people aren't poor because they made bad decisions or had poor work ethic, they are poor because they were born poor, and there is [I]very little[/I] upward mobility for the poor and middle class in the US. Working hard and getting a good job and climbing your way out of poverty is easier preached than performed, because all the dice are loaded. Ours is a predatory system, or at least a highly obstructive one.[/QUOTE]
I would be very curious to see the rates of upward mobility out of the bottom 25% of those who graduated high school, didn't take drugs, didn't get pregnant/get anyone pregnant, haven't been arrested, and was raised in a stable family. Essentially, I would like to see the effects of being born into poverty separated from the effects of bad decisions.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48716948]I would be very curious to see the rates of upward mobility out of the bottom 25% of those who graduated high school, didn't take drugs, didn't get pregnant/get anyone pregnant, haven't been arrested, and was raised in a stable family. Essentially, I would like to see the effects of being born into poverty separated from the effects of bad decisions.[/QUOTE]
Do you not see how poverty effects those statistics, or are you just being hypothetical?
What I mean is, poverty directly influences the rate of drug use, violent and nonviolent crime, poor education, teen pregnancies, and broken families or single parent families. People are products of their environment.
Outside of specific "bad decision" obstacles, you have a number of institutional and social ones. People born into urban poverty face critically underfunded and understaffed public schools for their districts; crippled local economies with little or no job prospects that pay above minimum wage; a predatory or apathetic justice system; discrimination in housing and employers based on race and geographic place of residence; exorbitantly expensive medical care and few or no affordable alternatives (the ACA did not do nearly enough), etc.
It isn't to say that nobody escapes poverty, just that the odds are heavily stacked against you. For all the hard work an enterprising family might put into climbing into the next income bracket, a thousand things can go wrong that will erase all their progress. Injury or illness could take their primary earner out of commission, and worse, the lack of affordable insurance can bury them in debt forever. Even with insurance through the ACA, we're looking at high hard and soft deductibles that can still easily bury a family in debt for years. Or, the family's car could break down, and without access to reliable public transportation the primary earner could lose his job. Or, the bright and ambitious student walking home from the library with the books he bought himself for self study could be killed as part of a gang initiation. Or an important member of a family could be arrested, leaving his otherwise well-meaning and honest relatives unable to provide for themselves. Or a thousand other things.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48717136]Do you not see how poverty effects those statistics, or are you just being hypothetical?
What I mean is, poverty directly influences the rate of drug use, violent and nonviolent crime, poor education, teen pregnancies, and broken families or single parent families. People are products of their environment.[/QUOTE]
It's obviously more complex than that since we have plenty of examples of people who were born in poverty and didn't do those things. To say that people are purely products of their environment completely discounts these people.
[QUOTE]Outside of specific "bad decision" obstacles, you have a number of institutional and social ones. People born into urban poverty face critically underfunded and understaffed public schools for their districts; crippled local economies with little or no job prospects that pay above minimum wage; a predatory or apathetic justice system; discrimination in housing and employers based on race and geographic place of residence; exorbitantly expensive medical care and few or no affordable alternatives (the ACA did not do nearly enough), etc.
It isn't to say that nobody escapes poverty, just that the odds are heavily stacked against you. For all the hard work an enterprising family might put into climbing into the next income bracket, a thousand things can go wrong that will erase all their progress. Injury or illness could take their primary earner out of commission, and worse, the lack of affordable insurance can bury them in debt forever. Even with insurance through the ACA, we're looking at high hard and soft deductibles that can still easily bury a family in debt for years. Or, the family's car could break down, and without access to reliable public transportation the primary earner could lose his job. Or, the bright and ambitious student walking home from the library with the books he bought himself for self study could be killed as part of a gang initiation. Or an important member of a family could be arrested, leaving his otherwise well-meaning and honest relatives unable to provide for themselves. Or a thousand other things.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, that's why I'm interested in the stats I brought up. I'm very interested in what percent of the lack of upward mobility is caused by those "bad choice" variables, and what percent is caused by unavoidable obstacles like the ones you mentioned.
Take a single choice variable: marriage. I think there's a reason that married parent households are incredibly resistant to poverty. According to the US census 6.2% (half the average) of married couple households were in poverty in 2010 compared to ~27% (double the average) of single adult households, over 4 times higher. That single decision has a massive effect on what economic level you'll be at. ([URL]http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2010/table4.pdf[/URL])
[QUOTE=sgman91;48718947]Take a single choice variable: marriage. I think there's a reason that married parent households are incredibly resistant to poverty. According to the US census 6.2% (half the average) of married couple households were in poverty in 2010 compared to ~27% (double the average) of single adult households, over 4 times higher. That single decision has a massive effect on what economic level you'll be at. ([URL]http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2010/table4.pdf[/URL])[/QUOTE]
i think you're confusing causes and effects, to a degree.
low-wage long-hours work, uncertainty and instability with regards to housing and living situation, and financial trouble all take a toll on people and make it harder to keep stable long-term relationships.
sure, tax benefits and cooperation make financial life easier for married couples, but to get there you need stability, certainty, and mental well-being, things which the poor end up getting the least of.
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