• UNRWA gives IDF coordinates of designated shelter in Gaza, IDF shell shelter without warning killing
    33 replies, posted
[quote]At least 15 people have been reported killed and 200 injured in the Israeli shelling of a UN school in northern Gaza that was being used as an emergency shelter[/quote] [quote]In an interview with Al Jazeera Chris Gunness, the spokesman for UNRWA, the UN's humanitarian organisation in Gaza, said his organisation had been in contact with Israeli forces as fighting closed in on the shelter. "We gave the Israelis the precise GPS co-ordinates of the Beit Hanoun shelter. We were trying to co-ordinate a window [for evacuation] and that was never granted."[/quote] [quote]Robert Turner, the director for UNRWA told Al Jazeera there was no warning from the Israelis before the shells landed. "This is a designated emergency shelter," he said. "The location was conveyed to the Israelis. "This was an installation we were managing, that monitored [to ensure] that our neutrality was maintained.[/quote] [url]http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israeli-shells-hits-un-shelter-gaza-201472413198190287.html[/url]
The IDF keeps preaching on about how careful it is but there have been too many incidents the past two weeks showing that it is not. If there was a reason for doing this they will say the reason and not give any evidence to back them up which is acting just as bad as HAMAS.
Right now, news reports are conflicting. Some say the UNRWA gave Hamas rockets(which I think sounds pretty bullshit) and some say they didn't. [QUOTE]UNRWA (The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) has admitted to finding Hamas rockets in their facilities on two different occasions since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge 16 days ago. It said it handed them over to local authorities “answerable to the national unity government.” In a meeting with UN Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon on Wednesday, Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman decried that not only were rockets found in UNRWA schools in Gaza, but also that UNRWA then turned them over to Hamas, rather than to Israel.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Gazan-officials-IDF-shelling-kills-ten-Palestinians-in-UNWRA-school-368795[/url] [QUOTE]Israel may demand U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon deal with the discovery and return to Hamas of 20 rockets found in an UNRWA school on July 16th in the midst of fighting in Operation Protective Edge, during his upcoming visit on Tuesday, Israeli daily Ma’ariv reported. [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/20/official-rockets-found-in-unrwa-gaza-school-returned-to-hamas/[/url] [QUOTE]UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness told The Daily Beast on Sunday that after finding the rockets on July 17 in a vacant UNRWA school in Gaza, the organization contacted the local police bomb squad, which came and took the rockets away. Gunness said he didn’t see an issue with the handover, because the local authorities who took control of the rockets reported to the Palestinian government in Ramallah, not to Hamas, which heads the government and runs the police force in Gaza. [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/20/did-the-united-nations-give-rockets-to-hamas.html[/url] I have no fucking clue right now. I'm not even sure if its the same school.
I wouldn't be surprised if Israel fired at the school because they "thought" that Hamas might be there. I don't want to bash on Israel just for the hell of it, but they've been pulling so much shit for the past few weeks, that it's impossible to believe it's coincidences and "misfires".
All this violence against unarmed Palestinian civilians, "coincidentally" being under the impression of the locations housing terrorists, it's almost like a campaign of genocide out there. I know what people say, "never attribute to malice that which could easily be done through incompetence" or however that goes, but surely the Israeli military isn't comprised of Clouseau-esque bumbling idiots? Even if they were, someone would need to take their artillery away because they obviously can't be trusted not to "accidentally" bomb another refugee shelter. That said, the same applies if they're genuinely trying to eradicate the Palestinians and use the "but the terrorists will eat us alive!" excuse to put up a veneer of legitimacy and justification to their actions. The IDF might claim to be careful with their strikes, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were actually careful not to miss a single Palestinian refugee with their shells. Whether genocidal malice or genuine gross incompetence, or even "I am only obeying orders", it needs to stop. NOW.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45485765]Right now, news reports are conflicting. Some say the UNRWA gave Hamas rockets(which I think sounds pretty bullshit) and some say they didn't. [url]http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Gazan-officials-IDF-shelling-kills-ten-Palestinians-in-UNWRA-school-368795[/url] [url]http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/20/official-rockets-found-in-unrwa-gaza-school-returned-to-hamas/[/url] [url]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/20/did-the-united-nations-give-rockets-to-hamas.html[/url] I have no fucking clue right now. I'm not even sure if its the same school.[/QUOTE] I posted this in another thread. UNRWA has officially admitted they found rockets in two of their schools so far. According to their own [URL="http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools"]official statement[/URL], they gave the rockets back to their owners: Choice quotes: [QUOTE]The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.[/QUOTE] The rockets were stored in the vicinity of lots of civilians. [QUOTE]UNRWA strongly and unequivocally condemns the group or groups responsible for this flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law.[/QUOTE] We don't know who this mysterious group is. [QUOTE]The Agency immediately informed the relevant parties and is pursuing all possible measures for the removal of the objects in order to preserve the safety and security of the school.[/QUOTE] ...But we asked them take back all the rockets.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45485765]Right now, news reports are conflicting. Some say the UNRWA gave Hamas rockets(which I think sounds pretty bullshit) and some say they didn't. [URL]http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Gazan-officials-IDF-shelling-kills-ten-Palestinians-in-UNWRA-school-368795[/URL] [URL]http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/20/official-rockets-found-in-unrwa-gaza-school-returned-to-hamas/[/URL] [URL]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/20/did-the-united-nations-give-rockets-to-hamas.html[/URL] I have no fucking clue right now. I'm not even sure if its the same school.[/QUOTE] The fact you posted very shit sources make that question a lot easier. [quote]Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman decried that not only were rockets found in UNRWA schools in Gaza, but also that UNRWA then turned them over to Hamas, rather than to Israel.[/quote] This isn't a conflicting news report. This is a ultra-nationalist spreading propaganda. For those unaware of the unfortunately long list of Liberman's antics, he has publicly called for the banning of any Palestinian commemoration of the Nakba (Palestinian expulsion) and as of recently is trying to shut down Al Jazeera. Liberman was born in bullshit and breeds among it as much as he can to suit his narrative.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45485958]The fact you posted very shit sources make that question a lot easier. This isn't a conflicting news report. This is a ultra-nationalist spreading propaganda. For those unaware of the long list of Liberman's antics, he has publicly called for the banning of any Palestinian commemoration of the Nakba (Palestinian expulsion) and as of recently is trying to shut down Al Jazeera.[/QUOTE] Except for, you know, the actual UNRWA press release where they say they did just that.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45485972]Except for, you know, the actual UNRWA press release where they say they did just that.[/QUOTE] [quote=UNWRA]and is pursuing all possible measures for the removal of the objects[/quote] Is different than "giving it to Hamas" -- I guess this just means under Israel's reality-distorting interpretation they now label the UN a hostile entity without worrying about press.
[QUOTE]of recently is trying to shut down Al Jazeera.[/QUOTE] This is purely speculatory. [QUOTE]The fact you posted very shit sources make that question a lot easier.[/QUOTE] I don't agree with it, ergo, it's shit! Well, I think we're all kind of guilty for our convictions on sources. I was a bit brash when I called Al-Jazeera Ma'an. I was being a bit to general, but I still find its coverage dubious. [QUOTE]UN is now considered a hostile entity to them.[/QUOTE] The UN, in my opinion, and the evidence yields, is a highly political organisation that is worthy of constructive criticism. [url]http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1313591/k.954F/Mission__History.htm[/url] Here is a respectable institution that monitors the UN.
[QUOTE=ironman17;45485916]All this violence against unarmed Palestinian civilians, "coincidentally" being under the impression of the locations housing terrorists, it's almost like a campaign of genocide out there. I know what people say, "never attribute to malice that which could easily be done through incompetence" or however that goes, but surely the Israeli military isn't comprised of Clouseau-esque bumbling idiots? Even if they were, someone would need to take their artillery away because they obviously can't be trusted not to "accidentally" bomb another refugee shelter. That said, the same applies if they're genuinely trying to eradicate the Palestinians and use the "but the terrorists will eat us alive!" excuse to put up a veneer of legitimacy and justification to their actions. The IDF might claim to be careful with their strikes, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were actually careful not to miss a single Palestinian refugee with their shells. Whether genocidal malice or genuine gross incompetence, or even "I am only obeying orders", it needs to stop. NOW.[/QUOTE] "Ok, now the black paper is the coordinates for the enemy base. And the white paper is the coordinates for the Orphanage and Home for Lost Baby Animals. Do not hit the orphanage." ... "Ohh no! I spilled ink all over the white paper, now I just can't tell the two apart!" "Lieutenant, hand me the paper with the coordinates for the enemy base on it so we can destroy it with artillery." "I don't know which this one is, but I'm sure no harm will come if I made a mistake." So basically, Israel's military is actually just a big sitcom, everything with all the bloody civilian deaths and dead children has just been one big comedic mistake. Right?
So, even if there allegedly were Hamas rockets in the school, what right dies it give them to bomb the place?
[QUOTE=Stopper;45486007]So, even if there allegedly were Hamas rockets in the school, what right dies it give them to bomb the place?[/QUOTE] Hamas Rockets in the school. That's all you need. It's your ass or theirs.
[QUOTE=ironman17;45485916]All this violence against unarmed Palestinian civilians, "coincidentally" being under the impression of the locations housing terrorists, it's almost like a campaign of genocide out there. [/QUOTE] It's not genocide, it's reprisal. The people of Gaza are being systematically punished for supporting Hamas and granting tacit approval to armed efforts to resist the occupation. And, also to scuttle the Gaza unity government. Israel can't have Gaza turn into anything resembling a legitimate state, because that would force them to acknowledge that Gazans are, you know, people.
Still sounds kinda like genocide against Gazans to me, although blanket punishment is always, in any situation in the entirety of reality, unacceptable and unjustifiable unless every single person involved is guilty, which they rarely are since there's always at the very least a few who are innocent. This is not a thing that actual people do. If someone attempts to place a blanket punishment on you and your group because of one person's actions, you reject it with extreme prejudice and refuse to acknowledge that creature as a person. Never blanket attack, only ever surgical precision with as little collateral as personally possible. This shelling business is sloppy, juvenile, unnecessary, and downright lazy.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45485958]The fact you posted very shit sources make that question a lot easier. [/QUOTE] Wow, here I am trying to help by providing more sources and you just come in saying that its shit? Seriously be more open. I'm trying to get people to view this from more angles. Didn't they teach you in school to not just look at one source?
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45486243]Didn't they teach you in school to not just look at one source?[/QUOTE] No, instead they taught me not to give credence to war criminals who repeatedly try to whitewash civilian killings. Ignore accidental rating.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45486267]No, instead they taught me not to give credence to war criminals brazenly whitewashing attacks on civilians repeatedly. Ignore accidental rating.[/QUOTE] Because nobody can have an opinion different from yours?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45486267]No, instead they taught me not to give credence to war criminals who repeatedly try to whitewash civilian killings. Ignore accidental rating.[/QUOTE] We are sorry oh mighty Moderator Starpluck that we do not agree to your opinion please dont punish us!
[QUOTE=Hammer7;45486329]Because nobody can have an opinion different from yours?[/QUOTE] Liberman has also called for the citizenship stripping for all Arabs who fail to swear an allegiance to a Jewish state. Some opinions have legitimacy some have none, your overly-fanatical foreign minister has none.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45486267]No, instead they taught me not to give credence to war criminals brazenly whitewashing attacks on civilians. Ignore accidental rating.[/QUOTE] Approaching an issue in a one-sided manner and discarding opinions/sources/evidence that are contrary to your established opinion doesn't do much good either. Unless the sources are providing verifiably false information, then they're still worth something. On topic now, I would likE to know more about why they would shell a school of all places without any kind of warning.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;45486564]Approaching an issue in a one-sided manner and discarding opinions/sources/evidence that are contrary to your established opinion doesn't do much good either. Unless the sources are providing verifiably false information, then they're still worth something. On topic now, I would likE to know more about why they would shell a school of all places without any kind of warning.[/QUOTE] Neutrality is fine. It is when certain people consistently equate "minimization of Israeli crime/exoneration of atrocities/it was Hamas" as a mask for "neutrality" No one would post an Iranian foreign minister's statements in defense to the 100th consecutive Iran civilian bombing as a "conflicting news report," - and calling that out does not mean "disregarding all sides" it means disregarding the shitty sides for who they are.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45486743]Neutrality is fine. It is when certain people consistently equate "minimization of Israeli crime/exoneration of atrocities/it was Hamas" as a mask for "neutrality" No one would post an Iranian foreign minister's statements in defense to the 100th consecutive Iran civilian bombing as a "conflicting news report," - and calling that out does not mean "disregarding all sides" it means disregarding the shitty sides for who they are.[/QUOTE] Look, man, I can understand why the mere mention of Lieberman has got you seeing red. The guy is definitely one of our most vile politicians (although, unfortunately, probably not the vilest). But regardless of Liberman, Ignhelper's original points stands: UNRWA has admitted to hiving found rockets stored in their schools, and by their own admission handed them over to Gazan authorities. The only authority in Gaza is, as far as I know, Hamas. If UNRWA's own statement which I linked to above still isn't clear enough for you, here are some additional sources, hopefully with less Lieberman to ruin them for you: [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606689"]Haaretz[/URL]: [QUOTE]“UNRWA has reinforced and continues to implement its robust procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and regular inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes.” UNRWA issued a similar statement after employees found 20 rockets in a different Gaza education facility on June 16. In that statement, the agency said it was the first incident of its kind. [B]Those rockets were handed over to Gaza authorities and apparently made their way back into the hands of Hamas militants.[/B][/QUOTE] [URL="http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/07/24/U-N-chief-alarmed-as-rockets-found-in-Gaza-school-go-missing.html"]Alarabia[/URL]: [QUOTE]In both cases UNRWA said it "informed the relevant parties," but did not identify who had been contacted. [B]Islamist militant group Hamas is the dominant group in the coastal enclave[/B] and has been fighting with Israeli troops for the past two weeks. [/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/20/did-the-united-nations-give-rockets-to-hamas.html"]The Daily Beast[/URL]: [QUOTE]When 20 rockets were discovered last week in a U.N.-funded school in Gaza, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees was quick to condemn the storage of weapons of war in a building meant to educate children. But rather than turn them over to a third party, or arrange for their disposal, the agency, known as UNRWA, handed them over to the local police force, which was established by Hamas, and is believed to be under the militant group’s control.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Reached by phone in Barcelona, Spain, Gunness insisted that the local authorities in Gaza report to the Palestinian government in Ramallah, not to Hamas. “As far as we are concerned, the government that we are dealing with now is the government of national consensus and they have authority over the organization that we dealt with for getting rid of these rockets from our school,” he said. “[B]We handed them over to the relevant authorities, and that organization, as it were, the experts that came and did it, are under the government of national consensus in Ramallah[/B].”[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The fate of the rockets is now unknown. While the Gaza police is almost certainly under Hamas’ sway, it’s an open question to what degree any individual police unit cooperates with Hamas’ irregular army. An Israeli official said the Israeli government is working now to try to confirm that Hamas had taken back the rockets and put them back into circulation.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45487714]Look, man, I can understand why the mere mention of Lieberman has got you seeing red. The guy is definitely one of our most vile politicians (although, unfortunately, probably not the vilest). But regardless of Liberman, Ignhelper's original points stands: UNRWA has admitted to hiving found rockets stored in their schools, and by their own admission handed them over to Gazan authorities. The only authority in Gaza is, as far as I know, Hamas. If UNRWA's own statement which I linked to above still isn't clear enough for you, here are some additional sources, hopefully with less Lieberman to ruin them for you: [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606689"]Haaretz[/URL]: [URL="http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/07/24/U-N-chief-alarmed-as-rockets-found-in-Gaza-school-go-missing.html"]Alarabia[/URL]: [URL="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/20/did-the-united-nations-give-rockets-to-hamas.html"]The Daily Beast[/URL]:[/QUOTE] You neglected to mention that the school was vacant, anyways do support destroying shelters full of innocent civilians on the suspicion that their might be munitions there?
[QUOTE=Lamar;45488045]You neglected to mention the school was vacant, anyways do support destroying shelters full of innocent civilians on the suspicion that their might be munitions there?[/QUOTE] Sigh. I am not trying to justify the strike on the UNRWA school. I don't know why it happened, and its definitely possible it was not justified. I am only objecting to Starpuck's blanket dismissal of Ignhelper's post "because Lieberman". But if you really must, once again from UNRWA's own press release: [QUOTE]The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons.[/QUOTE] Why did they mention this? What do you think UNRWA are impying here?
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45488079]Sigh. I am not trying to justify the strike on the UNRWA school. I don't know why it happened, and its definitely possible it was not justified. I am only objecting to Starpuck's blanket dismissal of Ignhelper's post "because Lieberman". But if you really must, once again from UNRWA's own press release: Why did they mention this? What do you think UNRWA are impying here?[/QUOTE] Well I'll give it to you on that point, it wasn't a good point for him to make.
Just for a secomd, imagine Israel and Palestine, IDF and Hamas, have switched places. But somehow Israel retained some of its recognition. Why would that be fair?
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;45488533]Just for a secomd, imagine Israel and Palestine, IDF and Hamas, have switched places. But somehow Israel retained some of its recognition. Why would that be fair?[/QUOTE] Israel would be gone from the face of the planet in a month if that were to happen. Hamas could finally do what it has wanted to do from its formation.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;45488079]Sigh. I am not trying to justify the strike on the UNRWA school. I don't know why it happened, and its definitely possible it was not justified.[/QUOTE] Possible it was not justified? I'm sorry, but what exactly would justify bombing a designated UN emergency shelter?
[QUOTE=Taishu;45489063]Possible it was not justified? I'm sorry, but what exactly would justify bombing a designated UN emergency shelter?[/QUOTE] People shooting at IDF forces or launching rockets from inside the school, I guess. Seems cold, but it's easier to write off the life of people on one side when you're having rockets flying at you on your side. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that particular point. Everyone's position on this should be pretty clear by now.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.