• Hamas to soften stance on Israel, Muslim Brotherhood: Arab sources
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[URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-hamas-document-idUSKBN17X1N8"]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-hamas-document-idUSKBN17X1N8[/URL] [QUOTE]The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas will drop its longstanding call for Israel's destruction as well as its association with the Muslim Brotherhood, in a policy document to be issued on Monday, Gulf Arab sources said. Hamas's move appears aimed at improving relations with Gulf Arab states and Egypt, which label the Brotherhood a terrorist organization, and mending a rift with the main Palestinian faction headed by President Mahmoud Abbas. It comes two days before Abbas is due in Washington, and days after President Donald Trump told Reuters he may travel to Israel this month and sees no reason why there should not be peace between Israel and the Palestinians. But the document, to be announced later on Monday, will still reject Israel's right to exist and back "armed struggle" against it, the Gulf Arab sources told Reuters. Israel rejected the reported shift, calling it an attempt by Hamas to delude the world that it was becoming more moderate. "Hamas is attempting to fool the world but it will not succeed," said David Keyes, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. "They dig terror tunnels and have launched thousands upon thousands of missiles at Israeli civilians," he said. "This is the real Hamas." It remained unclear whether the document replaces or changes in any way Hamas's 1988 charter, which calls for Israel’s destruction and is the Islamist group's covenant. Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters the group’s acceptance of a transitional Palestinian state along 1967 borders was an attempt to reach a consensus with other Palestinian factions. But, he said, "unlike Fatah, Hamas does not accept Israel's right to exist on the rest of the land. Hamas's constant position is not to cede any of our historical rights and not to recognize the (Israeli) occupation."[/QUOTE]
So if they're willing to accept 1967 borders, who are they going to border if Israel has no right to exist? [editline]2nd May 2017[/editline] Hamas are still utterly a stain on the Palestinian's cause.
Interesting, if they could ever unite and stop their violence, they would be seen as much more legitimate in the west.
It says everything that Israel's response is "yeah, fuck that, they're lying" and not "ok, cool, we appreciate the gesture and ask Hamas to go further in demonstrating its intent for peace by doing X, Y, and Z, and we will respond in kind with A, B, and C to help ease the suffering in Gaza". Hamas may not be serious but Israel's response demonstrates why it wouldn't matter if they were.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52173827]It says everything that Israel's response is "yeah, fuck that, they're lying" and not "ok, cool, we appreciate the gesture and ask Hamas to go further in demonstrating its intent for peace by doing X, Y, and Z, and we will respond in kind with A, B, and C to help ease the suffering in Gaza". Hamas may not be serious but Israel's response demonstrates why it wouldn't matter if they were.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but only a naive idiot would trust Hamas at first glance. Let them prove their peaceful intentions and we'll see the response.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52173827]It says everything that Israel's response is "yeah, fuck that, they're lying" and not "ok, cool, we appreciate the gesture and ask Hamas to go further in demonstrating its intent for peace by doing X, Y, and Z, and we will respond in kind with A, B, and C to help ease the suffering in Gaza". Hamas may not be serious but Israel's response demonstrates why it wouldn't matter if they were.[/QUOTE] wew and here i thought that people cant be more serious by trusting A FUCKING TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.
[QUOTE=RzDat;52174111]wew and here i thought that people cant be more serious by trusting A FUCKING TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.[/QUOTE] Are you rather going to fight them until the end of time, because you refuse to negotiate with them?
[QUOTE=RB33;52174115]Are you rather going to fight them until the end of time, because you refuse to negotiate with them?[/QUOTE] Let them prove their intents by stopping hiding their military assets in civilian buildings, stop building tunnels, start recognizing the nation of Israel's legitimacy, etc.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174115]Are you rather going to fight them until the end of time, because you refuse to negotiate with them?[/QUOTE] Personally i'd just remove them with force so the Palestinians in Gaza can choose a more moderate government.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52174118]Let them prove their intents by stopping hiding their military assets in civilian buildings, stop building tunnels, start recognizing the nation of Israel's legitimacy, etc.[/QUOTE] There is no point asking them to recognize Israel's legitimacy, it's just a unnecessary obstacle in any negotition. [QUOTE=RzDat;52174133]Personally i'd just remove them with force so the Palestinians in Gaza can choose a more moderate government.[/QUOTE] So sending more soldiers to risk their lives in war is preferable to possible negotiations?
[QUOTE=RB33;52174162]There is no point asking them to recognize Israel's legitimacy, it's just a unnecessary obstacle in any negotition. So sending more soldiers to risk their lives in war is preferable to possible negotiations?[/QUOTE] You don't understand that Hamas wants all of Israel, they are just settling on 1967 borders because they have to fall in line with Fatah. They will not want to make peace.
Good thing Israel not Trusting them. [media]https://twitter.com/elderofziyon/status/859125125123379202[/media] This was a bait move for reporters. Edit: Off Topic I love the Troll description of this Account.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174162]There is no point asking them to recognize Israel's legitimacy, it's just a unnecessary obstacle in any negotition.[/QUOTE] It's absolutely necessary to recognize a nation before negotiating with it honestly.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174162]There is no point asking them to recognize Israel's legitimacy, it's just a unnecessary obstacle in any negotition. So sending more soldiers to risk their lives in war is preferable to possible negotiations?[/QUOTE] If theres no point in recognizing Israel's legitimacy then theres nothing to negotiate about. There, you said it yourself. In case you didnt notice, more than 10 years of useless attempts to negotiate were wasted. I'm willing to die in my tank for the sake of removing the source of problems for both Israelis and Palestinians.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52174176]You don't understand that Hamas wants all of Israel, they are just settling on 1967 borders because they have to fall in line with Fatah. They will not want to make peace.[/QUOTE] If they can't actually get all or even a small part of Israel, there aren't that large a threat, that you can't negotiate with them. Still if they want peace one day, are you going to refuse it just because they're a terrorist organisation? Even if it would bring lasting peace? [editline]2nd May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;52174185]It's absolutely necessary to recognize a nation before negotiating with it honestly.[/QUOTE] Let's say you have 2 options, either negotiate and stop the killing or refuse to negotiate because they hate you enough to not even recognize you and keep the killing going. The lives you're saving are more important than any honour your country gets from being recognized.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174190]If they can't actually get all or even a small part of Israel, there aren't that large a threat, that you can't negotiate with them. Still if they want peace one day, are you going to refuse it just because they're a terrorist organisation? Even if it would bring lasting peace? [editline]2nd May 2017[/editline] Let's say you have 2 options, either negotiate and stop the killing or refuse to negotiate because they hate you enough to not even recognize you and keep the killing going. The lives you're saving are more important than any honour your country gets from being recognized.[/QUOTE] You're not even making sense anymore. This conflict is a lot more complicated than you think it is.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174190]If they can't actually get all or even a small part of Israel, there aren't that large a threat, that you can't negotiate with them. Still if they want peace one day, are you going to refuse it just because they're a terrorist organisation? Even if it would bring lasting peace? Let's say you have 2 options, either negotiate and stop the killing or refuse to negotiate because they hate you enough to not even recognize you and keep the killing going. The lives you're saving are more important than any honour your country gets from being recognized.[/QUOTE] Hamas does not want peace, it wants to kill every Jew in Israel. [QUOTE]This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised. Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). [/QUOTE] In their new charter, when they talk about Zionism, replace that with Jew and you'll get what they really mean. It is impossible to negotiate with such enemies and every time Israel has brokered a ceasefire with them during wartime, Hamas has broken it.
Yeah, but the question is would you rather keep fighting them even if they changed for the better, just because of their past history or would you negotiate with them (if they actually wanted peace)?
[QUOTE=RB33;52174241]Yeah, but the question is would you rather keep fighting them even if they changed for the better, just because of their past history or would you negotiate with them (if they actually wanted peace)?[/QUOTE] If they wanted peace, for sure negotiate. They don't so the point is moot.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174190]Let's say you have 2 options, either negotiate and stop the killing or refuse to negotiate because they hate you enough to not even recognize you and keep the killing going. The lives you're saving are more important than any honour your country gets from being recognized.[/QUOTE] Can I choose the non-false dichotomy option? The whole point is that there can be no negotiation that leads to peace without Hamas recognizing Israel. It's not a possible scenario. Hamas would be inherently negotiating in bad faith because they don't even recognize the nation they are making agreements with.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52174279]Can I choose the non-false dichotomy option? The whole point is that there can be no negotiation that leads to peace without Hamas recognizing Israel. It's not a possible scenario. Hamas would be inherently negotiating in bad faith because they don't even recognize the nation they are making agreements with.[/QUOTE] You don't have to recognize the other party's legitimacy in order to stop killing each other. You're just prolonging suffering if you're going to act stubborn about it.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174306]You don't have to recognize the other party's legitimacy in order to stop killing each other. You're just prolonging suffering if you're going to act stubborn about it.[/QUOTE] What does that even mean? I mean, hey, they can also go out and give hugs to each other! Solutions are easy when you live in naive fairy land where peace would happen if bad guy Isreal just talked to Hamas.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52174321]What does that even mean? I mean, hey, they can also go out and give hugs to each other! Solutions are easy when you live in naive fairy land where peace would happen if bad guy Isreal just talked to Hamas.[/QUOTE] I never said that, this was about never negotiating with a terrorist organisation without exceptions. You seem to prefer to have the wars keep going just because Israel's legitimacy isn't confirmed. Which will only keep this conflict going.
I imagine this is less about Hamas moderating its stances and more about being pragmatic in a situation where they realize that they're beginning to lose power and stability, especially considering how the PA is no longer supplying electricity to Gaza. But yeah, I would not at all trust them either.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174406]I never said that, this was about never negotiating with a terrorist organisation without exceptions. You seem to prefer to have the wars keep going just because Israel's legitimacy isn't confirmed. Which will only keep this conflict going.[/QUOTE] the entire war is over israel's legitimacy as a state and hamas's challenging it?
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52174473]the entire war is over israel's legitimacy as a state and hamas's challenging it?[/QUOTE] Yeah, but what if they one day turn around and decide a compromise is better while still not recognizing Israel.
[QUOTE=RB33;52174525]Yeah, but what if they one day turn around and decide a compromise is better while still not recognizing Israel.[/QUOTE] Then it's pointless since part of any peace treat is recognizing the other party as a legitimate partner in peace Look at Columbia and FARC for example
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52174542]Then it's pointless since part of any peace treat is recognizing the other party as a legitimate partner in peace Look at Columbia and FARC for example[/QUOTE] What is pointless is refusing to negotiate because you don't purely symbolically recognize someone. If Hamas-Israeli peace would rely on that one issue, I think it could be ignored.
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