• US weapons fuel Mexican drug wars
    111 replies, posted
[quote=The Independant]The overwhelming majority of weapons fuelling Mexico's drugs war are being sold in the US, where gun dealers are responsible for supplying at least 60,000 of the illegally trafficked firearms seized by the authorities since 2006. Cartels cite Texas, which has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the developed world, as their shopping destination of choice. The state is home to eight of their favourite 12 gun dealers, according to a year-long investigation published yesterday by The Washington Post. Four of the most widely used outlets are owned by Bill Carter, a former president of the local gun dealers' association who has lobbied extensively against stricter firearms laws. His stores have sold at least 155 of the guns seized by Mexico's police and army in the past two years. On one occasion, a man bought 15 .223-calibre sniper rifles, worth $9,000, from one store on a single day. Efforts to stop the flood of arms over the border, detailed by the newspaper, paint a chilling portrait of the price of Americans' right to bear arms. More than 28,000 people have been killed in violence in Mexico since 2006, when the government launched its "war" on drugs. Most of them died from weapons that were sold in the US. In Texas, 3,800 gun dealers are freely permitted to sell high-powered equipment such as AR-15s, AK-47s, and armour-piercing .50-calibre machine guns. These now account for between 80 and 90 per cent of the weapons held by drug cartels. The US has long been accused of selling guns smuggled south, but the extent of the problem has until now been unclear, thanks to a law passed by Congress in 2003, which means the names of dealers whose guns are found in Mexico remain confidential. The Washington Post got round the law by reviewing hundreds of court documents and interviewing dozens of Mexican officials and US law-enforcement personnel. In just one of the criminal conspiracies it uncovered, a gang of 23 traffickers bought more than 335 firearms, including 251 rifles, from 10 US dealers, over a few weeks. One member of the gang bought 14 AK-47s in one day from a single dealer. He paid cash. About one-third of those weapons were subsequently traced to incidents in Mexico involving 63 deaths, including a police massacre in Acapulco in which men disguised as soldiers killed seven people during a raid on the city's Attorney General's office. None of the gun dealers responsible was charged with selling firearms illegally. The US authorities rarely bring criminal cases in Texas, the newspaper said, because laws backed by the gun lobby make it difficult to have charges stick. Since 2006, only two gun dealers there have lost their licence. The problems authorities face are illustrated by the case of George Iknadosian, who owned a gun store called X-Caliber and was caught on tape telling undercover agents posing as gunrunners how to sneak weapons across the border, advising them to cross on weekends, when border agents might be off fishing. Although he sold 47 guns later linked to crimes in Mexico, charges against him were thrown out by a judge. Mr Carter has yet to be successfully charged with making an illegal sale. In a newspaper advertisement in April, he joked: "Why all the talk about guns going south when so many drugs are coming north that our cows along the interstate are gettin' high off the fumes!" The National Rifle Association denies US weapons are responsible for most of the deaths south of the border. [/quote] First of all, I apologise about the rather biast language used in the article, but it does raise interesting questions about licensing and the sale of firearms (or more importantly, the people who sell them). [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-weapons-fuel-mexican-drug-wars-2159590.html]Source[/url]
[quote]The National Rifle Association denies US weapons are responsible for most of the deaths south of the border.[/quote] :frog:
Of course a majority of firearms used by Cartels are going to be from the US, we're the nearest damn country that has stable armament manufacturing.
At least we're exporting something
[quote].co.uk[/quote] [quote]gun dealers are freely permitted to sell high-powered armour-piercing .50-calibre machine guns[/quote] Nothing to see here, move along
Yeah Smallfry pretty much said it. Anyone who knows anything about firearms can look at that article and tell immediately that the writer is full of shit.
are you fucking kidding me this is not how arms dealing works.
We should ban guns in the usa because then they couldnt use them to fuel mexican drug wars
[QUOTE=GunFox;26701518]Yeah Smallfry pretty much said it. Anyone who knows anything about firearms can look at that article and tell immediately that the writer is full of shit.[/QUOTE] So how much do you need to know about guns to find that.. [quote]In just one of the criminal conspiracies it uncovered, a gang of 23 traffickers bought more than 335 firearms, including 251 rifles, from 10 US dealers, over a few weeks. One member of the gang bought 14 AK-47s in one day from a single dealer. He paid cash. About one-third of those weapons were subsequently traced to incidents in Mexico involving 63 deaths, including a police massacre in Acapulco in which men disguised as soldiers killed seven people during a raid on the city's Attorney General's office. None of the gun dealers responsible was charged with selling firearms illegally. The US authorities rarely bring criminal cases in Texas, the newspaper said, because laws backed by the gun lobby make it difficult to have charges stick. Since 2006, only two gun dealers there have lost their licence. The problems authorities face are illustrated by the case of George Iknadosian, who owned a gun store called X-Caliber and was caught on tape telling undercover agents posing as gunrunners how to sneak weapons across the border, advising them to cross on weekends, when border agents might be off fishing. Although he sold 47 guns later linked to crimes in Mexico, charges against him were thrown out by a judge.[/quote] To make that read as bullshit? I dunno, maybe selling guns to drug cartels is good, and my British mind is weak and liberal.
In other news, the U.S. uses Saudi Arabian oil to fuel their War on Terror.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26701610]So how much do you need to know about guns to find that.. To make that read as bullshit? I dunno, maybe selling guns to drug cartels is good, and my British mind is weak and liberal.[/QUOTE] Because 335 guns does not make an entire war, those 14 "AK-47's" were most likely WASR-10's and other AK knock-offs which are all semi-automatic sporting rifles, not fully-automatic assault rifles like a true AK, the whole article is filled with biased claims, an obvious lack of firearms knowledge, and really no basis or sources for most of the claims. [quote]In Texas, 3,800 gun dealers are freely permitted to sell high-powered equipment such as AR-15s, AK-47s, and armour-piercing .50-calibre machine guns.[/quote] None of those are any more "high-powered" than a standard hunting rifle cartridge, aside from the .50, and that claim is a complete load of shit considering that there are maybe a dozen automatic Browning's left on the civilian market and the whole Class III machinegun market has insane amounts of regulation around it. Go ahead, try and find one store that just has a Browning .50 caliber machinegun lying around for sale to anyone, it's an unfounded accusation that anyone who knows the least bit about gun laws in the US will call bullshit on. For a dealer to sell Class III firearms like machineguns, it has to be federally licensed, keep detailed records of the weapons, and the buyer has to get a tax stamp, fill out a ton of ATF paperwork, and pass a background check, they don't just hand them out.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26701610]So how much do you need to know about guns to find that.. To make that read as bullshit? I dunno, maybe selling guns to drug cartels is good, and my British mind is weak and liberal.[/QUOTE] AK-47's aren't being sold. They are exceedingly rare and expensive inside the United States. .50 caliber machine guns aren't being sold. Again, M2 browning machineguns are extremely rare and expensive. Not to mention ammunition costs. And no they aren't "armor piercing" rounds. They are just .50 caliber rounds. A 12 gauge slug will go through just about anything, but it isn't an "armor piercing round." You would be hard pressed to find a vest capable of reliably stopping a basic FMJ 7.62x51 NATO round, but that doesn't mean it is "armor piercing". .223 caliber "sniper rifles" are actually just bolt action hunting rifles.
[QUOTE=XxPsychoxX;26701823]For a dealer to sell Class III firearms like machineguns, it has to be federally licensed, keep detailed records of the weapons, and the buyer has to get a tax stamp, fill out a ton of ATF paperwork, and pass a background check, they don't just hand them out.[/QUOTE] For those of you who don't have any idea of what this means, let me sum it up very simply for you: Basically, at that point the government owns you and knows everything you're doing and why.
[QUOTE=GunFox;26701879]AK-47's aren't being sold. They are exceedingly rare and expensive inside the United States. .50 caliber machine guns aren't being sold. Again, M2 browning machineguns are extremely rare and expensive. Not to mention ammunition costs. And no they aren't "armor piercing" rounds. They are just .50 caliber rounds. A 12 gauge slug will go through just about anything, but it isn't an "armor piercing round." You would be hard pressed to find a vest capable of reliably stopping a basic FMJ 7.62x51 NATO round, but that doesn't mean it is "armor piercing". .223 caliber "sniper rifles" are actually just bolt action hunting rifles.[/QUOTE] Ahh, I see. So selling guns to drug cartels is fine as long as it's for hunting.
Oh, and you know something else? The fact that the writer of this article is putting the emphasis on rifles and long arms instead of pistols and concealable firearms shows just how stupid and conceited he must be to not even realize where the real threat lies when it comes to firearm control. We're not talking about military-standard engagements here. We're talking about people who are firing upon civil workers, law enforcement, and civilians who, I'd like to think for the most part, don't wear any armor to speak of. And I'm kind of getting tired of people who try so hard and make a convincing an anti-firearm case when they constantly fail to realize logical things, like the fact that an assault rifle with a thirty-round clip is [i]just as bad[/i] as one of [url=http://www.m1911.org/images/welcome.jpg]these[/url] combined with one of [url=http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ProductImages/mags-drums/DRUM1911-25-B.jpg]these.[/url]
I'm the most pro gun, and pro gun control supporter. Ironic but I really don't give a shit if ammo casings are encoded with IDs to trace shit back to the owner. Background checks are too easy to pass, I'm sure the government can figure something out.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26702196]Ahh, I see. So selling guns to drug cartels is fine as long as it's for hunting.[/QUOTE] Way to ignore all but the last line of his post.
[QUOTE=M308;26702330]Oh, and you know something else? The fact that the writer of this article is putting the emphasis on rifles and long arms instead of pistols and concealable firearms shows just how stupid and conceited he must be to not even realize where the real threat lies when it comes to firearm control. We're not talking about military-standard engagements here. We're talking about people who are firing upon civil workers, law enforcement, and civilians who, I'd like to think for the most part, don't wear any armor to speak of. And I'm kind of getting tired of people who try so hard and make a convincing an anti-firearm case when they constantly fail to realize logical things, like the fact that an assault rifle with a thirty-round clip is [i]just as bad[/i] as one of [url=http://www.m1911.org/images/welcome.jpg]these[/url] combined with one of [url=http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ProductImages/mags-drums/DRUM1911-25-B.jpg]these.[/url][/QUOTE] I'm not really sure whether that addresses the fact that gun dealers in Texas are selling guns to criminals, more so criminals from another country. In fact it doesn't, at all. Where exactly are you going with this argument? [quote=dogmachines]Way to ignore all but the last line of his post.[/quote] Again, I feel you've missed the point. Texan gun dealers are selling guns to criminal gangs. This is a bad thing. It doesn't matter if it's a .50 cal machine gun (which I will happily agree is pretty fucking unlikely) or a 0.22 rifle, it's still a firearm being sold to a criminal.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26702196]Ahh, I see. So selling guns to drug cartels is fine as long as it's for hunting.[/QUOTE] You're missing the point entirely. A weapon configured for hunting is a million times different and less lethal to whole groups of people than a weapon configured for assault. We're talking about long, bulky shotguns that hold no more than four or five rounds and bolt-action rifles that hold about the same if you buy a modern, expensive one. So, yeah, it's okay to sell hunting weapons to people. Because they're severely outclassed by the typical weapons that even the lowliest of law enforcement officials carry.
ITT: Another anti-gun dude gets torn up by Facepunch's gun army.
These 3 words mostly make up my opinion: Unsuccessful liberal is unsuccessful.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;26702502]ITT: Another anti-gun dude gets torn up by Facepunch's gun army.[/QUOTE] He deserved it.
[QUOTE=tier56;26702599]These 3 words mostly make up my opinion: Unsuccessful liberal is unsuccessful.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure when the right wing felt that mexican drug dealers should be able to buy guns, but it does seem like a fairly major policy shift from "shoot the bastards". Or is this just to give them a fair chance?
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26702672]I'm not sure when the right wing felt that mexican drug dealers should be able to buy guns, but it does seem like a fairly major policy shift from "shoot the bastards". Or is this just to give them a fair chance?[/QUOTE] It's probably just either A: a coincidence or B: A loophole said cartel guys exploit.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26702672]I'm not sure when the right wing felt that mexican drug dealers should be able to buy guns, but it does seem like a fairly major policy shift from "shoot the bastards". Or is this just to give them a fair chance?[/QUOTE] Yeah, lets allow Mexico to blame their governmental corruption and violence on US gun laws, whether there is a valid link or not.
[QUOTE=tier56;26702723]It's probably just either A: a coincidence or B: A loophole said cartel guys exploit.[/QUOTE] All OP said was B, that there's a loophole, and the cartel guys are exploiting that. You can't argue that the gun store owners don't have some inkling of what's going on - if a guy comes in and buys 14 AK-style hunting rifles with cash, wouldn't that set off some alarm bells?
Yes, but not for said gun store owner, law enforcement is a different story.
[QUOTE=dogmachines;26702740]Yeah, lets allow Mexico to blame their governmental corruption and violence on US gun laws, whether there is a valid link or not.[/QUOTE] Or, you know, enforce US gun laws properly so that either foreign criminals can't buy the guns, or that US citizens can't traffic them to Mexico. [quote=tier 56] It's probably just either A: a coincidence or B: A loophole said cartel guys exploit. [/quote] Neither of those are particularly good arguments, and in both cases should be prevented from being abused again, no?
[QUOTE=tier56;26702817]Yes, but not for said gun store owner, law enforcement is a different story.[/QUOTE] 4 of the 12 American gun stores where weapons seized from cartels can be sourced to are owned by one guy. Don't pretend that the gun store owners don't know what's going on. [quote]The problems authorities face are illustrated by the case of George Iknadosian, who owned a gun store called X-Caliber and was caught on tape telling undercover agents posing as gunrunners how to sneak weapons across the border, advising them to cross on weekends, when border agents might be off fishing. Although he sold 47 guns later linked to crimes in Mexico, charges against him were thrown out by a judge. [/quote] [editline]14th December 2010[/editline] OP isn't calling for a ban on selling any kind of guns, he's just saying that the government needs to crack down on dealers who knowingly sell to cartels.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;26702400]I'm not really sure whether that addresses the fact that gun dealers in Texas are selling guns to criminals, more so criminals from another country. In fact it doesn't, at all. Where exactly are you going with this argument?[/QUOTE] First of all, I live in New York. In case you don't know what that means, let me cue you in: New York is the second only to California in firearm restriction. I'm 17 and I own a Browning BPS Trap so that I can shoot clay pigeons on weekends. Before you spout any technical nonsense and label me, why don't you look up what exactly a BPS is? In fact, before you slip up and don't know what you're even talking about, don't even reply unless you either know the terms I'm using or research the ones you don't. I'm outright infuriated at the nonsense on all sides of the spectrum when it comes to firearms. And it's not only because of the social risk that I take being a teenager who owns a firearm after all the hype from Columbine. No, my issue? It's so fucking easy to solve the problems in this country, but everybody's got a large stick up their ass or they're too afraid of a backlash from tightening restriction in other states or something. When you say "Texas" you're making a null point, because last I checked, it's the same state that picked Creationist science textbooks over Biology textbooks in schools. Texas is selling guns to criminals because [i]there are no laws[/i] that say that they can't. Not like in New York and California where it's damned near impossible to buy a firearm if you've committed any type of felony within the state. That's not to say that I don't recognize the importance of firearm control or anything. I have a huge issue with pistols being allowed to be sold in the rest of the country without government permit, especially when people are allowed to get all-carry licenses for no good reason. But it is laughable at how stupid both sides of the argument really are. Sure, it's stupid enough that there aren't laws in some places that prohibit felons from buying any firearms. But then people like you, and people who wrote the article in the OP, step in with arguments referring to specific models or parts, and rile others up when in reality you have no idea what the difference between a "flash suppressor" and "barrel shroud" is. So, you know what my argument is? It is not only a request that you stop with your nonsensical articles, written by people who haven't handled even the most basic firearms personally before, but it is a reminder for all the people who are going to defend nonsensical lack of laws and ungodly amounts of corruption related to protecting the rights for the scum of Earth to possess their automatic AR-15s (points to West Virginia) that they cannot justify civilians being allowed weaponry under such loose constraints. I will now walk out quietly and hope that this thread dies after an idle post or two.
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