• what are your thoughts on antinatalism?
    10 replies, posted
I'm wondering what you all think about antinatalism? David Benatar is a professor who teaches at Cape Town university. he advocates antinatalism in his book better never to have been the harm of coming into existence. Do you think he's depressed and a misanthrope? This is what some people have said to me about him. They don't agree and I think most people will think in the same way. I'm not saying I agree with him or disagree, i'm just wondering what anyone on here thinks. Other people I've read about are Arthur Schopenhauer and Peter wessel Zapffe who thought in the same way. Zapffe thought we should end the human race immediately. Peter Singer disagrees with DB stating that he thinks the world is better with humans. David Benatar states that some people who have children don't realise that they cause their children's suffering. They don't realise that they could avoid their children's suffering by refraining from having them. I don't think this could be true. Anyone who has children knows they make it possible for them to suffer and die. Many people are religious and believe in some kind of meaning to life and something following death. Though they may still think that life is horrible and full of suffering which is what DB is saying. he claims we're all biologically programmed to be optimistic and don't realise how bad life is. He claims we over estimate the quality of our lives. He also claims the animals we use for food all suffer immensely and this is also claimed by Professor Gary L. Francione who teaches at Rutgers University.
How would such a thing not abuse our human rights?
Most, if not all, of our problems are created by our mind which actually is the problem. You can't say you're causing your children to suffer because they're going to grow old, get sick, and die eventually. You personally suffer if you identify with your body because it is not permanent, and will grow old and die. The people that cause suffering to animals is simply because they are unaware of the consequences of their actions, or because they lack compassion, or they just are greedy or attached to certain animal products. They like the animal product, and they desire/want more of it. Because they crave/want it, they cause suffering, to themselves and the animal. There is an end to all our suffering within our life. And it's not death, although it is true that you do not suffer when you are dead. There is a cause to our suffering. We suffer a lot because of our defilements. Your desires to achieve, to become, to obtain, all come along with the fear of not achieving, not becoming, not obtaining. Having possessions can give you the fear of losing it, having it stolen or broken. All your attachments and clinging makes you upset when you lose the thing you cling to, including people, material objects, activities, sensations, emotions, thoughts, ideas and so on. There is a lot more to this, but at the end of the day, life can be blissful or life can be suffering. You can't say life is suffering just because your mind is the real problem and is causing you all your suffering when it has the power to free you from such suffering.
You get people who have kids passing on their health problems. You get people with AIDS/HIV having sex with others infecting them. People living in poverty and yet they still have kids. They don't need protection or to be sterilised. Just stop having sex. DB claims those who have kids have them for themselves. It isn't in their children's interest to come into existence. There's no benefit to coming into existence, according to DB.
You could say there is no point or benefit in becoming attached to pleasant feelings, good health, pleasure and other things that make you feel happy because they are all unsatisfactory and not permanent. And the untrained mind will cause you suffering. But it doesn't mean there's no benefit for coming into existence just because some people fail at being at peace with themselves the world.
[QUOTE=GeeOhDee;42213311]You could say there is no point or benefit in becoming attached to pleasant feelings, good health, pleasure and other things that make you feel happy because they are all unsatisfactory and not permanent. And the untrained mind will cause you suffering. But it doesn't mean there's no benefit for coming into existence just because some people fail at being at peace with themselves the world.[/QUOTE] you can untrain your mind all you want, but if you are working against the brains hardwired instincts, your never going to win. its hardwired into our brains to want to reproduce, to want to be happy, to want to have our needs met. Soviet countries tried to condition people to not consume, that not taking what they want leads to happiness, and it failed, people were misrible and the system broke down because people took what they needed to satisfy their needs.
[QUOTE=Sableye;42225550]you can untrain your mind all you want, but if you are working against the brains hardwired instincts, your never going to win. its hardwired into our brains to want to reproduce, to want to be happy, to want to have our needs met. Soviet countries tried to condition people to not consume, that not taking what they want leads to happiness, and it failed, people were misrible and the system broke down because people took what they needed to satisfy their needs.[/QUOTE] A person first needs to understand why desire causes suffering, or else they won't willingly want to give them up. You won't magically forget what sex is, but you wouldn't obsess about it. You would still enjoy the feeling of happiness, but you would understand it is not permanent and you wouldn't seek temporary feelings of happiness from things such as shopping, eating, drugs, etc. And even once you make the decision to act on your desires less than usual, it still takes a lot of practice. But nothing is easy if you don't want to do it, and anything is easy if you really want to do it. Satisfying your needs is healthy, but attempting to satisfy your wants often leads to suffering.
[QUOTE=GeeOhDee;42228264]A person first needs to understand why desire causes suffering, or else they won't willingly want to give them up. You won't magically forget what sex is, but you wouldn't obsess about it. You would still enjoy the feeling of happiness, but you would understand it is not permanent and you wouldn't seek temporary feelings of happiness from things such as shopping, eating, drugs, etc. And even once you make the decision to act on your desires less than usual, it still takes a lot of practice. But nothing is easy if you don't want to do it, and anything is easy if you really want to do it. Satisfying your needs is healthy, but attempting to satisfy your wants often leads to suffering.[/QUOTE] [i]"Were striving to end, the result would be boredom. Another state of dissatisfaction."[/i] - Abraham Maslow The fact is we must continually work at keeping suffering away because of our intrinsic kind. Since we aren't always in control of our circumstance or life, we can only do so imperfectly. Desiring doesn't always mean a whole lot of frustration though since some people might desire to strive fulfilling that desire for example, getting 99 in a MMORPG but consider the supposed 'period of frustration' of striving for it no less gratifying than the fulfillment itself. [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/2cwszsx.png[/IMG] Oh, one of the best books i've bought. It can be quite complex to grasp at times due to it's academic nature but it has a mind blowingly strong thesis. I'm surprised to see this thread for the wrong reasons in all honestly, as it's such an important topic but what seems so substantially alien to everyone else.
@Daemon You've read his book? I read it some time ago. I can't seem to find anything on David Benatar. I don't know when he was born or anything else about him. I don't agree with his view on corporal punishment and circumcision. I remember reading that DB thinks that while there are excellent misanthropic reasons to discontinue the human race his reasons are all philanthropic. He thinks we all over estimate the quality of our lives. It's wrong to have children and always wrong to create more sentient beings. DB thinks we should die out and not be killed off. He says we are all programmed to be optimistic and don't realise how bad our lives really are. He claims the world is full of suffering, which I think is what Arthur Schopenhauer thought.
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