European Court of Human Rights upholds French full-face veil ban
63 replies, posted
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28106900[/url]
[quote]The European Court of Human Rights has upheld a ban by France on wearing the Muslim full-face veil - the niqab.
A case was brought by a 24-year-old French woman, who argued that the ban on wearing the veil in public violated her freedom of religion and expression.
French law says nobody can wear in a public space clothing intended to conceal the face. The penalty for doing so can be a 150-euro fine (£120; $205).
The 2010 law came in under former conservative President Nicolas Sarkozy.
A breach of the ban can also mean a wearer having to undergo citizenship instruction.
France has about five million Muslims - the largest Muslim minority in Western Europe - but it is thought only about 2,000 women wear full veils.[/quote]
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/01_07_14_grandchamber.pdf]ECHR ruling (PDF)[/url]
What do you think, does a law which imposes a max €150 fine and/or citizenship course for wearing the full-face veil in public violate any of the articles in question?
[quote][U][B]ARTICLE 8[/B] - Right to respect for private and family life[/U]
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
[U][B]ARTICLE 9[/B] - Freedom of thought, conscience and religion[/U]
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
[U][B]ARTICLE 14[/B] - Prohibition of discrimination[/U]
The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.[/quote]
[quote]The French government argues that the ban has wide public support. The authorities see the full-face veil not only as an affront to French secular values but also as a potential security risk, as it conceals a person's identity. [/quote]
Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.
One could argue just that for many laws.
[B]Edit:[/B]
I can't say I'm entirely surprised. Religious expression or not, it does a good job of obscuring your identity; one could debate whether it's stupid to ban masks and the like, but exceptions to an entire law can't be made simply for one ethnic or religious group. If it's the way that the French want to attempt to reduce crime then that's fair enough.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
there's this thing called [I]prevention[/I]
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
It might stop them if it limits robbers to only put masks when near their target, and if so then the mask is useless since they'll probably get seen by a camera when not wearing the mask on the way.
[QUOTE=NixNax123;45267781]there's this thing called [I]prevention[/I][/QUOTE]
If you're going to rob a house or something you could just carry the mask with you and put it on when it's showtime.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;45267801]It might stop them if it limits robbers to only put masks when near their target, and if so then the mask is useless since they'll probably get seen by a camera when not wearing the mask on the way.[/QUOTE]
It does say that there are exceptions such as sunglasses and motorcycle helmets, those could be usable too.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
Its about concealment of identity like it says, nothing about stopping a robbery/shooting
[quote]What do you think, does a law which imposes a max €150 fine and/or citizenship course for wearing the full-face veil in public violate any of the articles in question?[/quote]
Nº2 of Article 9 allows this so no.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
brazil enacted a nearly identical law a few years ago, although only it applies only to commercial establishments, due to robberies, and it does help identify criminals.
i assume it probably works in france too.
also its pretty obvious that france's dislike of muslim practices has at least in part something to do with this law lol.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;45267981]also its pretty obvious that france's dislike of muslim practices has at least in part something to do with this law lol.[/QUOTE]
Yeah true.
The fact still stands that this does NOT violate the declaration of human rights, hence why it was upheld, doesn't mean it should be agreed with, just that it doesn't violate it and so the EU can't legally do anything about it.
Nº2 of Article 9 allows for laws that prevent any kind of religious expression in the interest of public safety and this is very likely the one France focused on.
I dunno what french ppl do on halloween, but if any of them do some trick or treat, with masks... BAM! Breaking the law.
[quote]2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.[/quote]
The ban doesn't seem to conflict with any of these.
Were there any incidents where someone purposefully used a niqab/burqa to conceal their identity to take out a criminal action? Or did the ban just happen because?
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;45268357]There's no argument that works against this, really ffs this is a thinly veiled attempt at taking a jab at the niqab for either SJW or xenophobic reasons, that or the people behind this are idiots. FFS how dumb or dishonest about your motives do you have to be to make laws for [B]criminals[/B] to follow?[/QUOTE]
Early ID as a criminal(petty or otherwise), you arrest and fine them for wearing a mask if they are caught before they get to their target, if they get there first, you are already on the way due to being notified before they actually acted.
So in a sense it makes the fine a false alarm fine.
Wasn't there this gustafa guy on fp with his startingup clothing company called Veil?
[QUOTE=SwizzChees;45268419]Wasn't there this gustafa guy on fp with his startingup clothing company called Veil?[/QUOTE]
name coined by me
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1280704[/url]
Ahh yes I remember this being introduced. There was a huge stink about the mass of Muslims posing a major security risk, and eventually finding only 200 or so actually regularly wear a full hijab.
I can understand the purpose and use of this law, and it's not exactly a bad one - it's simply that it was targeted at a single demograthic and seemed to have ridden a wave of racism, over something that actually concerned so few.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
We have the same here in Germany, it's more about violent protests I think.
Also: If people do conceal their faces you know immediately they are probably going to be violent and can get out of the way early enough.
Good, if you are going to move to a country at least try to assimilate, either that or go back.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45267761]Security risk? Like, somebody wearing a mask a rob a place or shoot somebody? How is this law going to stop that.[/QUOTE]
theres been suicide bombers that sneak into places by wearing a vale, its not that unthinkable. french are having probably the worst problem with muslim culture of all the european countries due to their policies regarding former colonial holdings, and pretty much where everybody is immigrating from is all muslim, as it stands headscarfs are commonly accepted as a traditional french garb, at least every french chick i've seen has had some multiple of scarves wrapped around their neck and head as a fashion symbol
[QUOTE=toaster468;45268866]Good, if you are going to move to a country at least try to assimilate, either that or go back.[/QUOTE]
What about those born in France?
[QUOTE=smurfy;45269166]What about those born in France?[/QUOTE]
god why won't you brown people go back to where you came from
sacre bleu
I reckon the ban on the burqa came after a series of debates on the matter, and while veils were already under the same seculiar legislation as other religious symbols inside workplaces and state-owned buildings, the most decisive argument in favor of the ban was indeed their ability to dissimulate identity, which caused a problem.
If I were completely honest I'd say allowing other equally ostentatious religious symbols in publics while the veil is forbidden is kind of hypocritical, but I've yet to see anyone conceal their identity behind a kippa or a crucifix.
I knew we shouldn't have let MaxofS2D get elected.
[QUOTE=toaster468;45268866]Good, if you are going to move to a country at least try to assimilate, either that or go back.[/QUOTE]
Wearing any kind of veil is a religious choice. Are French Muslims not allowed to eat halal food, deny alcohol, or fast at Ramadan either? I disagree with any person being forced to wear clothes like the niqab, but if a woman actually chooses to, there's no reason why she shouldn't. That said, I think any full face veil should be removable or liftable in case of situations where one would need to see their face. I understand your point, but it's perfectly possible to speak French, act French, and be French, and yet still want to wear a niqab.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;45269493]I knew we shouldn't have let MaxofS2D get elected.[/QUOTE]
but max would probably do the opposite of what was actually done, he's pretty outspoken when it comes to anti-discrimination type stuff
i mean uh [I]hon hon hon baguette escargot[/I]
[QUOTE=Carlito;45268271]Were there any incidents where someone purposefully used a niqab/burqa to conceal their identity to take out a criminal action? Or did the ban just happen because?[/QUOTE]
I assume not but if you ban wearing balaclavas, etc. in public you shouldn't make exceptions based on religion.
[QUOTE=Electrocuter;45268093]Yeah true.
The fact still stands that this does NOT violate the declaration of human rights, hence why it was upheld, doesn't mean it should be agreed with, just that it doesn't violate it and so the EU can't legally do anything about it.
Nº2 of Article 9 allows for laws that prevent any kind of religious expression in the interest of public safety and this is very likely the one France focused on.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, but there is one factual error in your post.
The European Court of Human Rights (this one) is [b]NOT[/b] part of the EU.
The European Court of Justice, however, [b]IS[/b] part of the EU.
Eurosceptics like to try and slip people into believing that the ECHR is part of the EU like some other courts as it gets a lot of publicity, so they can try to use it for "supressin' muh countries lahws".
[editline]2nd July 2014[/editline]
So it's not actually the EU doing anything in this situation.
[QUOTE=NixNax123;45268459]name coined by me
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1280704[/url][/QUOTE]
sry for off topic, has he started business by now or what has happened?
Good! Now if Britain could just do the same!
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