• Black NYC Firefighters Announce $98M Settlement
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[quote] About 1,500 minorities who took New York City fire department entrance exams that were found to be biased will be eligible to receive back pay totaling $98 million, a black firefighters' group that had sued the city over racial discrimination said Tuesday. The settlement of the 7-year-old case capped a long and arduous legal fight by the group, the Vulcan Society, over diversity in the fire department. In a city where more than half of residents identify with a racial minority group, black firefighters have never made up more than 4 percent of the department's total. "This is a great day in the city of New York," said Capt. Paul Washington, a past president of the Vulcan Society. "And we hope that this is the beginning of a new day for the New York City Fire Department." Besides back pay, the settlement includes more than $6 million to cover lost medical payments, fringe benefits and interest for those who took the test in 1999 and 2002. It also allows for firefighters to be assigned to firehouses in neighborhoods where they live. The payment method hasn't been determined and will have to be approved by a federal judge. Mayor Bill de Blasio, who has yet to appoint a new fire commissioner, and his corporation counsel, Zachary Carter, praised the settlement as a way to diversify stationhouses. "The brave men and women of the FDNY work tirelessly to keep us safe from harm's way — and our administration is committed to ensuring every New Yorker who seeks to take on this heroic role has a fair opportunity to join the ranks," de Blasio said in a statement. Among other things, the settlement calls for the FDNY to create an executive position for diversity, appoint a uniformed advocate to hear claims of racial discrimination and sets goals for proportional representation and recruiting levels that are higher than the numbers of black and Hispanic members in the community to make up for years of underrepresentation, said one of the Vulcan Society's lawyers, Richard Levy. [/quote] I could've sworn I remember seeing a thread about the beginning of this 'issue' years ago, and here's the conclusion. [editline]18th March 2014[/editline] Also source which I'm adding this way because the edit button is freaking the [b]fuck[/b] out: [url]http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/settlement-reached-fdny-discrimination-lawsuit-22951693[/url]
This happened in Chicago as well a few years ago. The exact same story.
For reference, here are the types of questions which were deemed too hard. [quote]Q: When operating in a building which uses a standpipe system, it is necessary for a firefighter to maintain adequate pressure at the nozzle of the firefighting stream. The correct nozzle pressure is calculated by adding an additional 5 psi (pound per square inch) for each length of hose that is being used, to a constant starting base of 50 psi. A firefighting team is operating in a building with a standpipe system and is in the process of using 4 lengths of hose. The correct nozzle pressure that needs to be applied in this situation is: A) 50 psi, B) 60 psi, C) 70 psi, D) 80 psi.[/quote] [quote]Firefighters have responded to an apartment for an emergency water leak and are now standing in front of the door to the apartment. Which one of the following actions should the firefighters take first to gain entry into the apartment? A) Knock loudly on the door and then try the doorknob. B) Cut a hole in the door with a portable saw. C) Strike one of the door hinges with the back of an axe. D) Locate the fire escape and climb into the apartment through a window.[/quote] [quote]While operating at the scene of a car fire on a street, a firefighter was told to inform the officer of any dangerous conditions at the scene. Which one of the following conditions would be considered most dangerous to the firefighter operating at the scene of the car fire? A) The car is leaking gasoline. B) The car has four flat tires. C) Vehicle traffic has come to a complete stop at the scene. D) The car’s windshield is broken.[/quote]
Those are all necessary for becoming a firefighter, especially in new york though? The only one slightly convoluted is the one involving nozzle pressure, though that's important. [editline]18th March 2014[/editline] If it's a water leak, it's not break the door down, if you're at a car fire, you want to make sure that vehicle traffic isn't going to it lol. [editline]18th March 2014[/editline] It's not all breaking down doors and shit lol.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44280283]For reference, here are the types of questions which were deemed too hard.[/QUOTE] So.. How are these questions racist? Am I missing something? I don't understand this lawsuit.
[quote]While operating at the scene of a car fire on a street, a firefighter was told to inform the officer of any dangerous conditions at the scene. Which one of the following conditions would be considered most dangerous to the firefighter operating at the scene of the car fire? A) The car is leaking gasoline. B) The car has four flat tires. C) Vehicle traffic has come to a complete stop at the scene. D) The car’s windshield is broken.[/quote] If you can't answer this within 5 seconds, you probably picked the wrong profession to begin with.
So wait. They're being sued because there aren't enough black firefighters? Where is the racial discrimination in all of this? Do they have proof they're only hiring based on race? or are they just going by the conclusion "well 85% of firefighters are white so they're obviously discriminating against us". I don't see how this makes sense, I don't see how being black can interfere with saving lives and helping the public, if that is the case.
[QUOTE=SweetSwifter;44280626]So.. How are these questions racist? Am I missing something? I don't understand this lawsuit.[/QUOTE] It's official - FDNY has stated that black people can't solve basic math problems absolutely necessary to perform their own jobs. [QUOTE]Garaufis took the unusual step after concluding the city had failed to ensure that enough minorities were hired.[/QUOTE] God, this is stupid. If anything, hire statistics should be compared to application statistics, which aren't cited. If black people just don't [i]want[/i] to be firefighters, that doesn't mean we should go out of our way to hire the ones that do simply because of their ethnicity, and then cut them a check on top of that.
[QUOTE=Comcastic;44280672]So wait. They're being sued because there aren't enough black firefighters? Where is the racial discrimination in all of this? Do they have proof they're only hiring based on race? or are they just going by the conclusion "well 85% of firefighters are white so they're obviously discriminating against us". I don't see how this makes sense, I don't see how being black can interfere with saving lives and helping the public, if that is the case.[/QUOTE] The lawsuit stems from the belief that such questions as; [quote]Firefighters are required to operate on the subway tracks during emergencies in the subway stations. Which one of the following would present the greatest threat to the safety of a firefighter working on the subway tracks? A) A subway platform crowded with people. B) Rubbish burning in a small garbage can located on a subway platform. C) A subway car entering a station. D) A maintenance crew working on the track.[/quote] or [quote]Firefighters conduct building inspections to locate potential life-threatening conditions in the even there is a fire. Which one of the following would the most-serious threat to life in the event of a fire? A) An unlocked front door in a building. B) A locked basement door in a building. C) A car in the driveway of a building. D) A building with a missing fire escape.[/quote] are biased against black people, and that is why blacks constitute such a small portion of the FDNY.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44280791]The lawsuit stems from the belief that such questions as; or are biased against black people, and that is why blacks constitute such a small portion of the FDNY.[/QUOTE] Fucking ridiculous. "IT'S RACIST TO THINK THAT WE'RE SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE THESE QUESTIONS OUT"
How the fuck do these questions discriminate against black people? Like what even ahaha
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;44280662]If you can't answer this within 5 seconds, you probably picked the wrong profession to begin with.[/QUOTE] Yeah, gotta know them windshields fucking important.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44280791]The lawsuit stems from the belief that such questions as; or are biased against black people, and that is why blacks constitute such a small portion of the FDNY.[/QUOTE] wow
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;44280842]How the fuck do these questions discriminate against black people? Like what even ahaha[/QUOTE] They apparently do, because the group that filed the lawsuit won.
I did a bit more reading. Apparently it's from a loophole where if a test is systematically failed by a particular group (E.g Blacks or Hispanics), then it is considered a flawed and biased test, and therefore subject to revision. The reason why this got this far is because the link between success as a firefighter and exam scores do not correlate. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/nyregion/22bias.html[/url] [quote]The United States Department of Justice filed a civil rights suit against New York City yesterday over the Fire Department’s written entrance exam, which black and Hispanic candidates fail at much higher rates than whites. The suit claims that the city has never proved a link between test scores and performance as a firefighter.[/quote]
regardless its fucking ridiculous that someone wouldnt know gasoline leaking from a car on fire was an extremely dangerous situation, if you get that question wrong you shouldnt be allowed to be a fire fighter at all
[QUOTE=Stroma;44280989]regardless its fucking ridiculous that someone wouldnt know gasoline leaking from a car on fire was an extremely dangerous situation, if you get that question wrong you shouldnt be allowed to be a fire fighter at all[/QUOTE] I dunno man, those flat tires can be venomous, and broken glass has been known to lash out at bystanders for no reason.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;44281275]I dunno man, those flat tires can be venomous, and broken glass has been known to lash out at bystanders for no reason.[/QUOTE] Flat tires are actually a boon during a car fire because it means they won't explode from the heat.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44280791]The lawsuit stems from the belief that such questions as; or are biased against black people, and that is why blacks constitute such a small portion of the FDNY.[/QUOTE] Mind if I ask where you're getting your information from because the article you linked says nothing like this
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44280946]Apparently it's from a loophole where if a test is systematically failed by a particular group (E.g Blacks or Hispanics), then it is considered a flawed and biased test, and therefore subject to revision.[/QUOTE] Or maybe it's because that particular group is dumber than the rest? It's not because of race, it's probably because minority neighborhoods in NYC have much lower standards of education. Regardless, stupid people - regardless of the reason for their stupidity - are not suited for a position involving the protection of human life in the most dangerous and deadly situations in the known world. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;44280946]The reason why this got this far is because the link between success as a firefighter and exam scores do not correlate.[/QUOTE] Just because the city never bothered proving a link doesn't mean that performance is not linked. Measuring firefighter performance is a difficult task because there is no leeway for screwing up. If you screw up as a firefighter, lives are lost. People dumb enough not to realize leaking gasoline near a fire is dangerous or (50 + 4 * 5) = 70 should not be firefighters.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;44281275]I dunno man, those flat tires can be venomous, and broken glass has been known to lash out at bystanders for no reason.[/QUOTE] Actually, if the vehicle is still right side up, firefighters will put blocks under the frame and purposefully flatten the tires to make the vehicle more stable to work with when cutting, prying, etc....
When you look at how many NYC firefighters are related to other firefighters, it becomes pretty obvious that answering questions on a test or having any other 'qualification' is a smokescreen. The real qualification is having family already in the department. It's not what you know it's who you know. So I don't blame these guys, they just want a fair shot.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;44281596]Actually, if the vehicle is still right side up, firefighters will put blocks under the frame and purposefully flatten the tires to make the vehicle more stable to work with when cutting, prying, etc....[/QUOTE] It depends on the department SOP's or SOG's. My department doesn't flatten the tires, there's no need to, the cribbing keeps the vehicle stable. But the vehicle stabilization is key, keeps the patients from moving around in the event of taking the roof or the door, etc.
[QUOTE=Starce;44282209]It depends on the department SOP's or SOG's. My department doesn't flatten the tires, there's no need to, the cribbing keeps the vehicle stable. But the vehicle stabilization is key, keeps the patients from moving around in the event of taking the roof or the door, etc.[/QUOTE] We do it as an extra precaution. We've had tires pop while we were trying to extract a person before, so now we block up the frame on cribbing and pull the valve stems in the tires to make sure the vehicle won't budge on us. Keep in mind, this is only one mild to severe accidents where the vehicle is already totaled. We don't bother on minor accidents.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44280946]Apparently it's from a loophole where if a test is systematically failed by a particular group (E.g Blacks or Hispanics), then it is considered a flawed and biased test,[/QUOTE] we seriously need to stop this kind of bullshit. minorities living in new york are most likely less intelligent than the majority living in new york, statistically speaking. This is like that marine thing where the female marines failed some pull-up test but were allowed in, and people got upset over double standards. If they are given the same test as everybody else and a certain race does worse, that's a problem with the education system and inumerably many other things such as housing and unemployment rates, not the fucking test being racist.
Here is a link to short synopsis of the case. [URL]https://ccrjustice.org/ourcases/current-cases/united-states-america-v.-city-new-york-(previously-vulcan-society-v.-city-new[/URL] The main part of it is this quote [quote] Because this test, which has no valid relationship to job skills, has a disparate impact on Blacks and Latinos, its use by the FDNY is illegal under Title VII. [/quote] Essentially it was a similar type of thing as literacy voting tests. It was a pointless test that had a negative impact on minorities. Also, the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) tried to have this settled early on in 2002, but the city never came to the table to discuss that.
[QUOTE=Valnar;44283782]Essentially it was a similar type of thing as literacy voting tests. It was a pointless test that had a negative impact on minorities.[/QUOTE] Except voting does not constitutionally require literacy. Illiterate people should not vote in theory, but there should be no legal process that stops them. The law of the land clearly states that everybody (besides felons) has the right to vote. A firefighter job is different; it requires intelligence and correct responses to extreme dangers so that lives are not lost. The law of the land states that everybody has the right to apply and be equally judged, but it [I]does not[/I] state that acceptance should only be given on a racially proportional basis. The success of this suit basically puts forward the conclusion that minorities are dumber than white people, because it could only have succeeded on that basis. They are equally judged because there are no racially-specific terms in the test. They are simply common-sense dangers and job hazards. The "negative impact on minorities" was because said minorities were not qualified for the job. Do schools have a "negative impact" on idiots that think they can skid by without doing any work?
[QUOTE=Snowmew;44283895]Except voting does not constitutionally require literacy. Illiterate people should not vote in theory, but there should be no legal process that stops them. The law of the land clearly states that everybody (besides felons) has the right to vote. A firefighter job is different; it requires intelligence and correct responses to extreme dangers so that lives are not lost. The law of the land states that everybody has the right to apply and be equally judged, but it [I]does not[/I] state that acceptance should only be given on a racially proportional basis. The success of this suit basically puts forward the conclusion that minorities are dumber than white people, because it could only have succeeded on that basis. They are equally judged because there are no racially-specific terms in the test. They are simply common-sense dangers and job hazards. The "negative impact on minorities" was because said minorities were not qualified for the job. Do schools have a "negative impact" on idiots that think they can skid by without doing any work?[/QUOTE] As part of the case they proved that it was pointless. What don't you get about that? And it doesn't put forth that minorities are dumber. A different conclusion is that minorities have shittier schools in a larger proportion than white people and thus don't get as good of an education, and also they are more likely to live in poorer conditions where they may not always be able to have a good education. You can't get a good education if you don't have the opportunity to have one. The law of the land also says that there shouldn't be discriminatory tests. A pointless test that ends up causing a disproportion to a minority is infact considered discriminatory.
[QUOTE=Valnar;44283910][B]As part of the case they proved that it was pointless. What don't you get about that?[/B] And it doesn't put forth that minorities are dumber. A different conclusion is that minorities have shittier schools in a larger proportion than white people and thus don't get as good of an education, and also they are more likely to live in poorer conditions where they may not always be able to have a good education. You can't get a good education if you don't have the opportunity to have one.[/QUOTE] All of the questions were simple common sense heavily related to the job they were applying for.
[QUOTE][B]When the first EEOC charge was filed in 2002, New York City’s fire department was 2.9 percent Black. The numbers have not changed at all since then[/B], despite the fact that the City has had five years to try to remedy the problem. As of March 2007, [B]the FDNY included 335 Black firefighters out of a total of approximately 11,500 firefighters, still barely more than 2.9 percent. New York City as a whole, by comparison, is 27 percent Black.[/B] [B]New York City also has the least diverse fire department of any major city in America – only 7.4 percent Black and Latino. Fifty-seven percent of Los Angeles’ firefighters, 51 percent of Philadelphia’s, and 40 percent of Boston’s are people of color. The fire departments are 30 percent Black in Baltimore and 23 percent Black in Chicago.[/B] [B]The central issue in the case is whether the skills measured by the FDNY’s written exam have any relationship to skills necessary to be a good firefighter – the EEOC and DOJ have concluded that they do not.[/B] CCR contends that there is no reason the City should be using this test to hire firefighters and that continuing to use it is against the law.[/QUOTE] i don't know man, but when your city has 27% of its population being black and your fire departament has only 2.9% and its worst percentage in the entire nation, whereas the rest of the nation has MUCH higher proportions, maybe there is something wrong lol. or i don't know maybe blacks in LA are all geniuses, must be something in the water. :v:
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