Fresh violence in Venezuela. Protesters demanding democracy and resignation of Maduro.
26 replies, posted
[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74349000/jpg/_74349254_74349233.jpg[/img]
[quote]Fresh violence has erupted in the Venezuelan capital, Caracas, between police and opponents of President Nicolas Maduro.
Masked protesters burned effigies of the president after a rally called "Resurrection of Democracy".
Police responded to petrol bombs in the Chacao district with tear gas and water cannon.
More than 40 people have died in violent protests since February and hundreds of people have been arrested.
The demonstrations started with students demanding action to tackle Venezuela's high crime rate, its growing inflation and shortages of certain food staples.
They have since grown into a wider opposition movement and many of the protesters say they will not stop until the government of President Maduro resigns.[/quote]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-27099900[/url]
And meanwhile everyones attention is turned to Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;44604273]And meanwhile everyones attention is turned to Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah. Venezuela isn't exactly a 1st-rate world power like Russia is. Venezuela isn't going to be strong-arming a continent anytime soon.
That said, I do hope the protesters the greatest success in their endeavor. It doesn't sound like a nice place to live as it is now.
He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]
I've come to believe that in protests around the world, either journalists only snap pictures of the guy with the Guy Fawkes mask, or about 1 in 10 protesters wears a Guy Fawkes mask.
Either way...
Venezuela already is a democracy though??
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;44604403]Venezuela already is a democracy though??[/QUOTE]
It's a federal republic.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;44604403]Venezuela already is a democracy though??[/QUOTE]
The authoritarian rule of Chavez and Maduro leaves much to be desired.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604417]It's a federal republic.[/QUOTE]
A federal republic can be a democracy? The United States is a federal republic, and it's a democracy. Although saying that, it isn't the best example of a democracy.
[editline]22nd April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;44604403]Venezuela already is a democracy though??[/QUOTE]
It's a flawed one at the best.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;44604403]Venezuela already is a democracy though??[/QUOTE]
it's the lack thereof.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]
Maybe he just doesn't want to be recognized? Regardless of internet-related stigma it still works just fine as a mask
[QUOTE=Antdawg;44604713]A federal republic can be a democracy? The United States is a federal republic, and it's a democracy. Although saying that, it isn't the best example of a democracy.[/QUOTE]
A federal republic [I]can[/I] be a democracy, but it doesn't have to be democratic to be a federal republic.
[QUOTE=Riller;44604832]A federal republic [I]can[/I] be a democracy, but it doesn't have to be democratic to be a federal republic.[/QUOTE]
No shit, care to tell me something I don't know?
I was replying to ZakkShock's comment which implied that a democracy and a federal republic are mutually exclusive concepts.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]
Guy Fawkes mask has come to be a symbol of democratic revolution in the west
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]
isn't this one of the few times where it would be appropriate to wear one?
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;44604273]And meanwhile everyones attention is turned to Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
well things have quieted down in Venezuela... That is until today.
Venezuela is a democracy. Chavez ALMOST lost the elections and they were closely monitored by international agencies.
What the students are asking for, and yes, semantics are important here inb4 any one you little kids say "Oh gawd, semantics biatch plz", is for more transparency and less authoritarianism from the president.
The funny thing about this looking at it from a LATAM perspective, it's that all the left leaning ideologically leaders of the region (Evo, Cristina, Bachelet, Lula, Dilma any other punk who follows the same idea of "Patria Grande") are saying that "democracy is on danger", "the CIA is going to throw down Maduro" and those students "are provocative fascists".
Yet when students protested in Chile, how many died? Yet they called Piñera's government a puppet of US and painted those students as the heroes of the people.
Shows that not only right wing leaning people can be dumbfucks, as Cristina and all of his sect. wants to show here in Argentina.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]Why does this matter
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44606916][B]Venezuela is a democracy.[/B] Chavez ALMOST lost the elections and they were closely monitored by international agencies.
What the students are asking for, and yes, semantics are important here inb4 any one you little kids say "Oh gawd, semantics biatch plz", is for more transparency and less authoritarianism from the president.
The funny thing about this looking at it from a LATAM perspective, it's that all the left leaning ideologically leaders of the region (Evo, Cristina, Bachelet, Lula, Dilma any other punk who follows the same idea of "Patria Grande") are saying that "democracy is on danger", "the CIA is going to throw down Maduro" and those students "are provocative fascists".
Yet when students protested in Chile, how many died? Yet they called Piñera's government a puppet of US and painted those students as the heroes of the people.
Shows that not only right wing leaning people can be dumbfucks, as Cristina and all of his sect. wants to show here in Argentina.[/QUOTE]
said it before, I'll say it again:
A democracy is not composed just of the electoral component; A democracy also needs proper separation of powers, transparency and justice to be an actual democracy. If a democracy just meant "having elections", North Korea would be a democracy.
If these other factors do not exist, no matter how [I]fair[/I] and [I]clean[/I] your elections are, it ultimately wouldn't be a democracy because those in power can still do whatever the fuck they want and ultimately wouldn't be truly representing the wishes of the people, which is what a democracy really is about.
Venezuela is [B]not [/B]a democracy.
[editline]21st April 2014[/editline]
also please quit that condescending tone of yours I see in every single one of your posts. It doesn't do any favor to your arguments.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]
He's on fire, I don't think being up to date with the latest internet memes is his top priority.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44606916]Venezuela is a democracy. Chavez ALMOST lost the elections and they were closely monitored by international agencies.
What the students are asking for, and yes, semantics are important here inb4 any one you little kids say "Oh gawd, semantics biatch plz", is for more transparency and less authoritarianism from the president[/QUOTE]
I am a venezuelan student residing in venezuela atm, and what I can tell you is that people are sick of the government, in general, every single officer and every ill advised policy they've pushed, the whole deal.
we don't live in a democracy, in democracies public media isn't tightly regulated and censored at the government's pleasure, in a real democracy there's a parliament not the joke that the National Assembly is, in a real democracy you are not coerced for votes, in a real democracy your vote is secret, and cannot be linked back to you like what they did with the Táscon list.
we are ruled by a joke of a government that has strived and struggled to keep the masses ignorant and poor to ease their manipulation, to maintain the distorted view of our own history they have pushed to the entire world. the venezuelan populace is tired of being forced into poverty by white collar thugs leeching on our natural riches, which belong to the venezuelans not to the few bureaucrats in the upper echelons of the government like Diosdado Cabello, Rafael Ramirez, Cilia Flores and the Flores family, the daughters of Chavez and so on.
[editline]21st April 2014[/editline]
and yeah the guy fawkes mask became a counter culture icon recently, it's not a "COOL MEME" thing. i'm personally against it being used in protests like this because it has an anti-catholic connotation (which is not a good idea to show in a 95% catholic country), and that it only became an "anti government" sign after V for Vendetta, when it stood for the exact opposite thing before V for Vendetta came to be.
[QUOTE]Venezuela is not a democracy.
[/QUOTE]
Is a democracy if you follow Przeworski definition.
Which is a very clear and good definition.
What you're talking about is a faulty democracy which is a total different thing.
[QUOTE]in democracies public media isn't tightly regulated and censored at the government's pleasure, in a real democracy there's a parliament not the joke that the National Assembly is, in a real democracy you are not coerced for votes, in a real democracy your vote is secret, and cannot be linked back to you like what they did with the Táscon list.[/QUOTE]
In a "REAL" or "a democracy"?
[QUOTE]If a democracy just meant "having elections", North Korea would be a democracy.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-070313.html"]Yes, but North Korea doesn't allow multiple parties to take part in the process and they don't give a fuck about being monitored by international agencies[/URL]
[editline]21st April 2014[/editline]
Jesus Christ, you people sound like those who say Argentina is a dictatorship :rolleyes:
[QUOTE]I am a venezuelan student residing in venezuela atm, and what I can tell you is that people are sick of the government, in general, every single officer and every ill advised policy they've pushed, the whole deal.
[/QUOTE]
So we are in Argentina. Doesn't mean that there is no democracy.
[editline]21st April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE]also please quit that condescending tone of yours I see in every single one of your posts. It doesn't do any favor to your arguments.
[/QUOTE]
Do I care if the tone does a favorr? Nah, I don't check whether the other guy has a specific tone or whatever. Leave that for the drama.
you're assuming that the fact that there are observers doesn't mean that voter and media manipulation doesn't take place, which will alter the results of any election, specially if there are only two parties, the government and opposition, and the opposition is persecuted and disrespected every day but the election day when the observers are around.
so big deal we do vote, but the vote doesn't accomplish anything and is sometimes [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tascon_List]used against you[/url]. this is a failed democracy, a system established for the perpetuation of a single party and that cannot be, not a single free country would allow that.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44607402]Is a democracy if you follow Przeworski definition.
Which is a very clear and good definition.
What you're talking about is a faulty democracy which is a total different thing.
[/QUOTE]
Where do you draw the line between a 'faulty democracy' and 'no democracy'? In my honest opinion, at best, Venezuela has a charade of a democracy.
Again, I say, what good is a fair electoral system, international monitors and such if the government can simply decide to [URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/20/us-venezuela-protests-idUSBREA2J02Y20140320"]imprison an elected governor of an opposing party[/URL] effectively negating these very same elections through bullshit legal maneuvers?
[QUOTE=Big Bang;44607444]you're assuming that the fact that there are observers doesn't mean that voter and media manipulation doesn't take place, which will alter the results of any election, specially if there are only two parties, the government and opposition, and the opposition is persecuted and disrespected every day but the election day when the observers are around.
so big deal we do vote, but the vote doesn't accomplish anything and is sometimes [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tascon_List]used against you[/url]. this is a failed democracy, a system established for the perpetuation of a single party and that cannot be, not a single free country would allow that.[/QUOTE]
So, you're telling me that one of the most bothersome groups regarding transparent elections, doesn't matter when it has a say on the issue?
Find me a single instance in the history of Cuba, the DDR, the USSR and NK that the ruling party won with 50% of the votes against other parties.
[QUOTE]Where do you draw the line between a 'faulty democracy' and 'no democracy'? In my honest opinion, at best, Venezuela has a charade of a democracy.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, this is Przeworski definition.
There is a democracy when there is uncertainty. You cant be 100% sure that the ruling party will stay in power and you cant be 100% sure that nobody will be able to get to power.
When:
-There is a defined time term of ruling.
-The opposition can contest you via elections/the chosen method of election set in the constitution.
-As said before, you are uncertain about what will happen. Here in Argentina 2013 legislative we were PRETTY SURE (Which != will be) that the Trotsky guys wouldn't get jack shit. Turned out they got 50% in the most backward and underdeveloped province of the country.
In the 2013 elections, there was uncertainty. 50-49 is a extremely close call for Maduro.
Here in Argentina during the 2009 legislative elections we we're pretty sure Nestor was going to pwn them all. Turned out, against all expectatives, with circa 40-35 of the votes against the so believed 50-55%.
[QUOTE]Again, I say, what good is a fair electoral system, international monitors and such if the government can simply decide to imprison an elected governor of an opposing party effectively negating these very same elections through bullshit legal maneuvers?[/QUOTE]
The fair electoral system, int monitor just give the opposition the ability to rightfully get to power.
What the winning party (Capriles or Chavez) does with the government once it gets to power belongs to a totally different discussion (The: How do we fix this democracy? Not:How do we get democracy?)
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;44604334]He's really wearing a guy fawkes mask in that picture.
really?[/QUOTE]
yeah but give him props dude he actually makes it look badass what with the riot shield and [B]fucking fire[/B]
the only reason people give the mask shit is because it's worn by edgy slacktivist teens, when you're [I]actually doing something[/I] in it it's a different story
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44608569]So, you're telling me that one of the most bothersome groups regarding transparent elections, doesn't matter when it has a say on the issue?
Find me a single instance in the history of Cuba, the DDR, the USSR and NK that the ruling party won with 50% of the votes against other parties.[/QUOTE]
why the fuck does the actual amount of votes matter? you're falling for a fallacy here. so you can't rig an election if the votes are too close? voter manipulation isn't there if the actual election has close results? lets say the crimea secession referendum would have got like, 52% of approval instead of 96%, would have that made it more legitimate?
you're ignoring the key problem here, and that lies in the actual transparency, and solidity of institutions, which places like Venezuela lack. guess what, the Carter Center, and all of those electoral monitors, do absolutely fucking nothing. all of these international NGOs? they don't do fucking anything. if they do anything that inconveniences the government they can decide to either ignore it, use state propaganda to push a different agenda, or simply decide they're no longer accepting anything the NGO says like what they did with the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.
[QUOTE]-There is a defined time term of ruling.[/quote]
[B]there isn't.[/B] infinite reelection is possible in Venezuela after a decree by chavez, which is btw the reason he was actually there for the 2012 elections despite barely being eligible, having run 3 terms already (1999-2002, 2002-2006, 2006-2012, see how the terms got longer while he was ruling).
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44608569]-The opposition can contest you via elections/the chosen method of election set in the constitution.[/quote]
yeah the opposition actually participates in the election. you can't silence the opposition might as well give them the illusion of choice. the elections themselves have been contested and the CNE has refused to do a full recount of the votes.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44608569]-As said before, you are uncertain about what will happen. Here in Argentina 2013 legislative we were PRETTY SURE (Which != will be) that the Trotsky guys wouldn't get jack shit. Turned out they got 50% in the most backward and underdeveloped province of the country.[/quote]
but we aren't uncertain? we have some sort of hope but everybody internally knew that chavez was going to win in every election he put himself through (he lost ONE referendum, which involved the infinite reelection thing, but hey guess what it fucking rained that year so chavez asked for an enabling act by the congress so he can "help those who needed it", he got it, and removed the reelection limit while he was at it).
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;44608569]In the 2013 elections, there was uncertainty. 50-49 is a extremely close call for Maduro.
Here in Argentina during the 2009 legislative elections we we're pretty sure Nestor was going to pwn them all. Turned out, against all expectatives, with circa 40-35 of the votes against the so believed 50-55%.
The fair electoral system, int monitor just give the opposition the ability to rightfully get to power.
What the winning party (Capriles or Chavez) does with the government once it gets to power belongs to a totally different discussion (The: How do we fix this democracy? Not:How do we get democracy?)[/QUOTE]
yeah close call but if then when asked for a recount and they don't check what actually matters (the actual registry of voters) the whole thing turns kinda sketchy, don't you think?
you keep comparing Venezuela to Argentina and I think that's what results in your really shallow perception of Venezuela. you see, I've actually been to Argentina, I know what it's like to be there, and trust me when I say that the corruption, the way the very bases of our democracy have been corroded by a greedy oligarchy, the way the courts have been rigged to always work in the governments favor, the way that the government manipulates information and then forcibly feeds it through mandatory broadcasts (yes, mandatory, they interrupt all radio and television networks to broadcast the infamous "cadenas", the only way to not see it is to either turn the TV/radio off, or to get satellite TV), the way there is absolutely no balance in the distribution of power and how the opposition can't actually do anything meaningful without government approval, the way that even the money that you get is tightly regulated and how oppressive currency controls actually are, hell just the way that you have to fucking struggle to get basic items like milk or toilet paper has absolutely no parallels with Argentina, nor anywhere else in the American continent. Venezuela's government is absurd, and authoritarian, and it's not even close to what a real democracy actually is.
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