• Russia: We wont return Crimea to Ukraine
    72 replies, posted
[IMG]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02836/putin_2836634b.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]Russia said on Wednesday it would not hand back Crimea to Ukraine or discuss the matter with foreign partners after the White House said U.S. President Donald Trump expected the annexed Black Sea peninsula to be returned. Moscow says an overwhelming majority of Crimeans voted to become part of Russia in a 2014 referendum wanting protection from what the Kremlin cast as an illegal coup in Kiev. Ukraine says the referendum was a sham held at gunpoint after Russian troops illegally annexed the peninsula, that Russia-friendly president Viktor Yanukovych was ousted by people power, and that Moscow should return Crimea. "We don't give back our own territory. Crimea is territory belonging to the Russian Federation," Maria Zakharova, spokeswoman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, told a news briefing on Wednesday. The 2014 annexation prompted the United States and the European Union to impose sanctions on Russia, plunging Western relations with the Kremlin to their worst level since the Cold War. White House spokesman Sean Spicer said on Tuesday that Trump expected and wanted to get along with Russia, but was expecting Moscow to hand Crimea back. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, when asked about Spicer's comments, said President Vladimir Putin had already explained why Crimeans had turned to Russia. "The theme of returning Crimea will not be discussed ... Russia does not discuss its territorial integrity with foreign partners," Peskov told a conference call with reporters. Trump had not raised the Crimean issue in a Jan. 28 phone call with Putin, Peskov noted, saying the Kremlin would try to make contacts with the Trump administration to try to improve ties which he said were in "a lamentable state."[/QUOTE]
welp, you got your answer Donny
welp there goes that
International politics done again via Twitter This is the future
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] Of course! Everyone knows how totally legit votes handled by the Russian government are.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] Wrong.
I still have faith in trump and his perfection in the art of negotiation to force Russia return Crimea to the United States
So is the bromance officially over?
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] The referendum presented 2 options: "Join Russia now", and "Declare independence so that we can join Russia immediately after". They created a no-win situation for the pro-Ukrainians and essentially forced them to not participate. And it's hard to believe that almost all of the people who weren't pro-Ukraine were against the idea of independence when that's exactly what the pro-Russian rebels to the north of them did. It was less of a referendum and more of a "fuck you" to Crimea's pro-Ukrainian and pro-Independence population.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51826461]Of course! Everyone knows how totally legit votes handled by the Russian government are.[/QUOTE] We should be careful of throwing stones in glass houses, we conduct elections all the time under our military occupation. We also supported the independence of Kosovo. [Quote]For their part, Crimeans seem content with their annexation by Russia. Overwhelming majorities say the March 16th•referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%).[/quote] [url]http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/[/url] Donbass is more questionable (although they were pretty bitterly against the EU out of self-interest), but Crimea seems legitimately a case of self-determination after a hostile nationalist takeover of the capital. It also really doesn't make any historical sense to have Crimea part of a nationalist ukraine, which is a fairly new country struggling to get a sense of national narrative and identity after the soviet era.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] The referendum is a sham to fool the people. The military already had control of it.
Source on OP?
[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-ukraine-idUSKBN15U0U0[/url] I found the OP's source if anyone needs it.
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;51826490]The referendum presented 2 options: "Join Russia now", and "Declare independence so that we can join Russia immediately after".[/QUOTE] That's straight up untrue.
I love how the picture is pretty much an analog of Kim Jong Un with binoculars.
Guess we'll see Trump's "hard stance on Russia" now
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] A referendum that went ahead less than a month after the unauthorised occupation of the peninsular by Russian forces and was organised without Ukrainian or indeed any international oversight. Even if the result wouldn't have changed under different circumstances, it's pretty ridiculous to take the vote at face value given everything that was happening.
I wonder how Trump will process this. "Russia is lying! They WILL return Crimea! Unforgivable!"
did anyone think they would do otherwise though
The potential outcome of a referendum does not provide a valid pretext for an invasion. That's like saying that the Iraq War was a-ok because people didn't like Saddam. Self-determination is important but it needs to be handled diplomatically.
I, as an Irish person, totally and 100% support self determination. However, from my recollection of events, and from the evidence I have seen, what happened in Crimea *was* an occupation and that there was never a formal, Ukrainian and Russian agreed referendum to determine whether Crimea should join Russia or not. From what I have seen it was not a justified referendum nor a free vote.
So are we warring then?
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826500]even if voter fraud happened it wouldn't have been enough to change the results because the population of crimea is at least 60% russian people's right to self determination should be respected[/QUOTE] If you actually believe this is what happened then you are completely misinformed.
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826500]even if voter fraud happened it wouldn't have been enough to change the results because the population of crimea is at least 60% russian people's right to self determination should be respected[/QUOTE] how come this doesn't apply to the chechens, tatars, mordvins, chuvash, bashkirs, and udmurts then? or how konigsberg is full of people who want to disassociate themselves from the rest of russia?
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia, and the majority of the population is Russian it's pretty much the same thing that happened in kosovo[/QUOTE] Don't forget these guys and their effort to secure a fair and balanced referendum! [img]http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140228194706-ukraine-crimea-unknown-men-magnay-pkg-00003916-story-top.jpg[/img]
Of course they won't. They have no reason to. And Trump knows this. His new-found spine regarding Russia is lip service designed to distract people away from the scandals inundating his administration. [editline]15th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=KillerJaguar;51826557]Guess we'll see Trump's "hard stance on Russia" now[/QUOTE] He will say he disagrees with Russia's decision then drop the matter and months later sanctions against Russia will be slowly, quietly eased.
[QUOTE=shian;51826790]Don't forget these guys and their effort to secure a fair and balanced referendum! [img]http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/140228194706-ukraine-crimea-unknown-men-magnay-pkg-00003916-story-top.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] What about these STALKER cosplayers?
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;51826490]The referendum presented 2 options: "Join Russia now", and "Declare independence so that we can join Russia immediately after". They created a no-win situation for the pro-Ukrainians and essentially forced them to not participate. And it's hard to believe that almost all of the people who weren't pro-Ukraine were against the idea of independence when that's exactly what the pro-Russian rebels to the north of them did. It was less of a referendum and more of a "fuck you" to Crimea's pro-Ukrainian and pro-Independence population.[/QUOTE] Basically, the whole thing was nothing but a farce. The Russians did it to make it look like it was a legitimate takeover ("the will of the people") and they were just protecting ethnic Russians in the Ukraine ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudeten_Crisis]sort of like this other guy did a long time ago[/url]) after their puppet Yanukovych was ousted. The options themselves were crap, the fact they had no sort of oversight from the United Nations was more than a little suspicious (the good news is that the international community considers the whole thing illegal and illegitimate; the bad news is that it's being as useless as ever and never bothered punishing them properly beyond sanctions, and it probably never will at this rate), and then there's the fact that they fucking invaded it with unmarked military forces in the first place (I've used the term "shadow invasion" before to describe what went on). Our opportunity to intervene throughout the whole of the Ukrainian crisis (both against Russia and against the separatists it's supporting in Donbass) was when those stupid fucks shot down MH-17 and killed close to 300 people-- the majority of which were from our allies' countries (the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Belgium, Canada, etc.; I think one of the victims also had dual citizenship here in the United States). The Russians supplied the TELAR unit ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/53rd_Anti-Aircraft_Rocket_Brigade]from their 53rd AA Rocket Brigade[/url]), and they had a hand in its operation on the day of the attack. The whole incident was basically our RMS [i]Lusitania[/i] moment, and we should've used it as a justification for intervening (at least officially against the rebels to consolidate the Donbass firmly under Ukrainian control and to help bring them further into the sphere of NATO's influence)... but we didn't unfortunately.
I was in Crimea recently, people didn't mind, lots were even glad, just saying
[QUOTE=Cructo;51826445]nothing wrong with their stance considering the people voted in the referendum to be part of Russia[/QUOTE] Just like that time Poland voted to abolish the Senate and enact Socialist ideals. Except only 27% voted for that, even though the official tally was 68%. This was followed by a rigged election that gave the Russia-backed Socialists full control, making Poland a satellite state for the Soviet Union. [editline]15th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;51826760]how come this doesn't apply to the chechens, tatars, mordvins, chuvash, bashkirs, and udmurts then? or how konigsberg is full of people who want to disassociate themselves from the rest of russia?[/QUOTE] Hell, it doesn't even apply to Ukraine, [I]a separate and sovereign country.[/I] All this "Self Determination" bullshit from the pro-Russia side, you would think that applies to the country they invaded because they didn't like the direction it was taking. Self Determination my ass.
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