In recent times, those with gender identity disorder and similar afflictions have become more vocal about their status and how they are or would be regarded in society. As has been seen here on Facepunch, there are many who believe that transgender individuals are unnatural and to be frowned upon. Of course, there are also those who believe they should be treated as equal individuals in law and in practice, as well as be identified by the pronouns they desire.
This lends to larger debate about that very issue: Are transgender individuals equal to everyone else and should they be properly identified as their new gender?
I personally side with the camp that believes they are equals and deserve proper labels, if any. However, I think this is a very interesting debate to have, so let's have at it.
This is a pretty similar debate to gay rights, and I don't see what reason there is to discriminate.
As to the nature of trans subjects, I think it is very possible that someone could end up feeling as if they are in the wrong body.
I see no reason of why a person isn't equal to somebody else just because of their visuals.
One of the first things my mother ever told me is that you are what you are on the inside and that your outside's not what matters, so I see no reason why a tran- girl or boy shouldn't be equal to somebody who was born a girl or boy.
Surely people who've undergone MTF/FTM changes won't have the same functionality as "originals", however that doesn't mean they should be threated otherwise.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32962726]Are transgender individuals equal to everyone else and should they be properly identified as their new gender?[/QUOTE]
I see no reason to discriminate against them for feeling uncomfortable with the body they were born with. And by discriminating against them for that (which is quite unreasonable in my opinion) you could end up making them feel quite depressed because as it is, feeling uncomfortable with their own body will normally give them some issues with their confidence levels.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;32962889]This is a pretty similar debate to gay rights, and I don't see what reason there is to discriminate.
As to the nature of trans subjects, I think it is very possible that someone could end up feeling as if they are in the wrong body.[/QUOTE]
I bring it up as a separate topic because I recall seeing at least one post in a previous trans-related thread where it read "I'm fine with gays because at least they were born that way, transgender people are just unnatural". I'm paraphrasing of course, but that was the gist.
Why shouldn't they be treated as equal to everyone else? They're people, just like the rest of us.
Yeah, full rights :)
And don't force anyone into choosing between male/female.
As a (slightly extreme) LGBTQ-rights activist, I'm a strong supporter of fully equal rights. One shouldn't be forced to belong to a gender with which one does not identify. This (obviously) also extends to the people who Identify with neighter, both or the third gender.
I'll treat them like people with no discrimination, but I must admit if i'm going to be going out with a woman and to find out she used to be a man i'd be freaked out and exit the relationship immediately, apologizing profusely for my actions.
They should have their own bathrooms, jus saiyan~
I have no issue with them, but to have operations to change genders or the such seems a waste of labour.
There may also be an issue with regards to relationships they get into, and if they keep their identity a secret from the other the couple will have massive problems down the line.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964429]I have no issue with them, but to have operations to change genders or the such seems a waste of labour.[/QUOTE]
what makes you the judge of this?
My cousin's in the process of becoming a man, he was Sophie but now he's Milo. I'm not going to pretend it's not weird, and it's true that it was at first pretty devastating for his immediate family, but things have settled. The problem for him in terms of rights is marriage. The law is apparently ridiculously unclear on the subject when it comes to transgendered people, mainly because it's quite a new process.
So yeah, obviously I'm definitely pro-equal rights for transgendered people. I think you'd be fairly hard pressed to find someone on Facepunch who isn't and is willing to post about it.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32964467]what makes you the judge of this?[/QUOTE]
Very simply in that it does not enhance the body, merely turning it into one form from another that isn't any more effective at its tasks than before.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964529]Very simply in that it does not enhance the body, merely turning it into one form from another that isn't any more effective at its tasks than before.[/QUOTE]
uhh since when is utility the point of human life? that's a deepend crazy set of priorities to have
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
it's turning the body into a form which better suits the interest of the person inhabiting it. that's what matters
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
gender dysphoria is a legitimate psychological condition, and sexual reassignment surgery, coupled with the transitioning process, is oftentimes the best response to that condition
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32964566]uhh since when is utility the point of human life? that's a deepend crazy set of priorities to have
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
it's turning the body into a form which better suits the interest of the person inhabiting it. that's what matters[/QUOTE]
It however does not implement a working reproductive system, along with various other problems that does not make the body fully one gender. (As of this date.)
It takes time, labour, resources, etc to change and get used to along with maintaining such a body in the present day.
Even by the time the body can be changed in that way with medical technology, they could modify the fetus before birth so as to stop mishaps involving humans born into the incorrect body and instead place them in the correct one so as to end the problem entirely.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32964566]gender dysphoria is a legitimate psychological condition, and sexual reassignment surgery, coupled with the transitioning process, is oftentimes the best response to that condition[/QUOTE]
If it is psychological does it not mean a psychologist can treat and cure the condition? Were it neurological it would be a entirely different matter.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964621]It however does not implement a working reproductive system, along with various other problems that does not make the body fully one gender. (As of this date.)[/QUOTE]
so?
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
it still remedies the problem of gender dysphoria somewhat, that's what matters.
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964621]
Even by the time the body can be changed in that way with medical technology, they could modify the fetus before birth so as to stop mishaps involving humans born into the incorrect body and instead place them in the correct one so as to end the problem entirely.[/quote]
sorry but this isn't really possible. it's likely not possible to detect gender dysphoria in the womb, and if it were, it's certainly not possible to alter an already partially developed fetus's chromosomes.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964621]If it is psychological does it not mean a psychologist can treat and cure the condition? Were it neurological it would be a entirely different matter.[/QUOTE]
yeah, the treatment is oftentimes transitioning and sexual reassignment surgery (i meant psychological in more of a blanket-way, btw. whether the origins of it is purely biological or not no-one's certain)
[QUOTE=Da Jester;32964408]They should have their own bathrooms, jus saiyan~[/QUOTE]
And why's that?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964529]Very simply in that it does not enhance the body, merely turning it into one form from another that isn't any more effective at its tasks than before.[/QUOTE]
If someone isn't happy they aren't going to be effective laborers.
[QUOTE=Da Jester;32964408]They should have their own bathrooms, jus saiyan~[/QUOTE]
We should get rid of separate bathrooms entirely.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;32964779]If someone isn't happy they aren't going to be effective laborers.[/QUOTE]
We should work on finding out the number of transexxuals that are created every year, followed by finding out how much better they work after surgery and if the advantages are good in the long run.
Next we find out how it is without the surgery, and depending upon how much their labour produces compared to those with surgery and determine the costs saved by not having a surgery and see the long term advantages.
If it is found that the latter or former is more efficient, go with the one that is. There are also many ways to increase happiness of labourers. For example with rewards for reaching targets, entertainment, consumer goods, food/drink, etc.
If the surgery group is found to be more efficient, then work towards slowly reducing the number so as to cure and prevent the condition of gender dysphoria over time so as to reduce the cost of surgeries.
You also must consider that whilst it benefits the individual, we must take into account if it benefits everyone.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964986]We should work on finding out the number of transexxuals that are created every year, followed by finding out how much better they work after surgery and if the advantages are good in the long run.
Next we find out how it is without the surgery, and depending upon how much their labour produces compared to those with surgery and determine the costs saved by not having a surgery and see the long term advantages.
If it is found that the latter or former is more efficient, go with the one that is. There are also many ways to increase happiness of labourers. For example with rewards for reaching targets, entertainment, consumer goods, food/drink, etc.
If the surgery group is found to be more efficient, then work towards slowly reducing the number so as to cure and prevent the condition of gender dysphoria over time so as to reduce the cost of surgeries.
You also must consider that whilst it benefits the individual, we must take into account if it benefits everyone.[/QUOTE]
You are very amusing.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964986]We should work on finding out the number of transexxuals that are created every year, followed by finding out how much better they work after surgery and if the advantages are good in the long run.
Next we find out how it is without the surgery, and depending upon how much their labour produces compared to those with surgery and determine the costs saved by not having a surgery and see the long term advantages.
If it is found that the latter or former is more efficient, go with the one that is. There are also many ways to increase happiness of labourers. For example with rewards for reaching targets, entertainment, consumer goods, food/drink, etc.
If the surgery group is found to be more efficient, then work towards slowly reducing the number so as to cure and prevent the condition of gender dysphoria over time so as to reduce the cost of surgeries.
[/QUOTE]
no offense but this is sort of psychotic
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
again; the point of life is not "utility to society"
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964986]
You also must consider that whilst it benefits the individual, we must take into account if it benefits everyone.[/QUOTE]
no, we should not. with matters like this we should only consider whether or not a person having a sex change infringes on the rights of other people; and as it does not: they should be free to pursue this ends if they feel that it is necessary for their happiness
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
it seems that you're unaware of this; most people here aren't down with your totalitarian spiel because most people here aren't going to be easily converted into totalitarians. you seem completely unaware of the fact that this ideology and model for society that you espouse in every debate you get into is morally objectionable to most people
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
if you want to be a totalitarian then go right ahead but don't saunter in here and act like what you're saying isn't [i]absolutely ludo[/i] to almost everyone in here
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32965536]
no, we should not. with matters like this we should only consider whether or not a person having a sex change infringes on the rights of other people; and as it does not: they should be free to pursue this ends if they feel that it is necessary for their happiness[/QUOTE]
It does not infringe in other peoples privileges, but does it improve them? Does converting a persons gender have a direct tangible effect on all of society?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32965848]It does not infringe in other peoples privileges, but does it improve them? Does converting a persons gender have a direct tangible effect on all of society? [/QUOTE]
i'd guess "maybe" but ultimately I don't really care because I don't see that question as relevant to the question of whether or not a person should have the right to a sex change.
i literally don't care about whether or not it improves productivity by 4 percent or decreases it by 3 percent because those are not the metrics by which i measure worth; nor do i even believe it my place to measure the "worth" of someone else's personal, private decisions
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
if you're keen on establishing a "Bureau of Societal Value" by which the private, personal decisions people intend make for their own lives are weighted and approved or rejected based on how many more people it'll help them greet at the front door of a wal-mart in pensacola, then go right ahead and advocate that - but I guarantee that you'll sound absolutely crazy while doing it
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32965900]i'd guess "maybe" but ultimately I don't really care because I don't see that question as relevant to the question of whether or not a person should have the right to a sex change.
i literally don't care about whether or not it improves productivity by 4 percent or decreases it by 3 percent because those are not the metrics by which i measure worth; nor do i even believe it my place to measure the "worth" of someone else's personal, private decisions
[editline]25th October 2011[/editline]
if you're keen on establishing a "Bureau of Societal Value" by which the private, personal decisions people intend make for their own lives are weighted and approved or rejected based on how many more people it'll help them greet at the front door of a wal-mart in pensacola, then go right ahead and advocate that - but I guarantee that you'll sound absolutely crazy while doing it[/QUOTE]
Bear in mind what I suggest is temporary until the final solution to the condition is found and transgenders can lead a healthy productive life.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32965848]It does not infringe in other peoples privileges, but does it improve them? Does converting a persons gender have a direct tangible effect on all of society?[/QUOTE]
Why does it matter if it improves all of society? It improves that one person's tiny part of society and that's all that matters.
[quote]Are transgender individuals equal to everyone else?[/quote]
Individuals should be treated like individuals. Transgendered people are individuals, therefore they should be treated as individuals. Under the law, all individuals are equal. Individuals have the right to treat other individuals in whatever way they was as long as they act within the scope of the law. Really, only when violence is being
What does equal imply exactly in this context? Equality means so many different things.
[quote]Should they be properly identified as their new gender?[/quote]
By who? The government? No, the government shouldn't know anyone's gender. If an individual wants to voluntary give that information to the government, the government should accept it, and they should accept changes in that information if voluntarily given.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;32964529]Very simply in that it does not enhance the body, merely turning it into one form from another that isn't any more effective at its tasks than before.[/QUOTE]
I literally don't see where you're going with this. I think you've been playing a bit too much Deus Ex.
It cannot be called a "waste of labor", there is a demand and the people who specialize in the procedures offer the supply. If for some reason you think that a person's only purpose in life is to serve as an industrial implement to output that which is helpful to society as a whole and should pursue no personal wishes that do not serve this goal, then, well, you're a bit mad.
[QUOTE=mastermaul;32966892]I literally don't see where you're going with this. I think you've been playing a bit too much Deus Ex.
It cannot be called a "waste of labor", there is a demand and the people who specialize in the procedures offer the supply. If for some reason you think that a person's only purpose in life is to serve as an industrial implement to output that which is helpful to society as a whole and should pursue no personal wishes that do not serve this goal, then, well, you're a bit mad.[/QUOTE]
I have never played Deus Ex.
Also with regards to the enhancement, I meant that a surgery to change the gender is a waste, people can still lead healthy fulfilling lives with their own personal wishes. However one such wish that cannot be implemented is one that is essentially decoration of the outside body that serves no tangible purpose, much like makeup, jewellery, piercings, rich clothes, etc that are wasteful.
A man is a man, a woman is a woman, be gay or lesbian if you want, you arn't the other no matter how fucked up in the head you happen to be.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.