• EU expected to launch military operation to destroy people-smugglers' boats in Libya
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[url]http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32776688[/url] [quote]EU foreign and defence ministers are expected to approve a mission to destroy the boats used by people-smugglers operating in Libya. At a meeting in Brussels, the ministers will also discuss the mission's command-and-control structure and HQ. It is part of the EU's response to the vast numbers of illegal migrants from Africa and the Middle East crossing the Mediterranean Sea to reach Europe. ... Initially it will involve gathering intelligence on the activities of the gangs, but it will also take action against smugglers' boats in international waters, the BBC's Chris Morris in Brussels reports. Our correspondent says the third and most controversial phase of the mission will be military operations conducted inside Libyan territorial waters and on its coast - in areas controlled by a potentially hostile Islamist militia.[/quote]
This would be like Tony Abbott's wet dream
I hope they don't mean "By taking action in international waters" by blowing up boats while people are on them. If that is the case that is super fucked up and isn't that pretty much a crime?
Gotta stop those boats somehow, seems like a great start to fixing the problem.
[QUOTE=MR-X;47747140]I hope they don't mean "By taking action in international waters" by blowing up boats while people are on them. If that is the case that is super fucked up and isn't that pretty much a crime?[/QUOTE] I'm fairly certain the EU wouldn't do that. Pretty sure they'll just fuck up the boats somehow but killing civillians isn't really something the EU would aim to do I think.
Destroying the boats probably means destroying them while they're docked or otherwise sabotaging them so that they can't take off.
[QUOTE=YCheez;47747356]Destroying the boats probably means destroying them while they're docked or otherwise sabotaging them so that they can't take off.[/QUOTE] but knowing how desperate people smugglers are, they're going to try anyway
This sounds like a terrible idea. The smugglers will capture or buy new boats in the area, and increase the cost of them which will hurt any locals who might want a boat for legit reason like fishing or cargo transport. It also means the smugglers will be more desperate and use worse and worse ships, which means there will be more refugees drowning. How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from, so they don't have the initiative to throw themselves at the slim chance they might survive way to Europe? That's IMHO the only morally acceptable way of "dealing" with the immigration.
There Likely going to board them and send them back with the people.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747431]How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from[/QUOTE] How about the refugees unfuck their own country rather than using our resources and money to save them from the sea because they are stupid enough to spend big money to try and cross the ocean in a fucking dingy.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747431]How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from, so they don't have the initiative to throw themselves at the slim chance they might survive way to Europe? That's IMHO the only morally acceptable way of "dealing" with the immigration.[/QUOTE] The west has tried that with not much success. [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=dunkace;47747516]How about the refugees unfuck their own country rather than using our resources and money to save them from the sea because they are stupid enough to spend big money to try and cross the ocean in a fucking dingy.[/QUOTE] I think you're mistaking desperation for stupidity.
[QUOTE=dunkace;47747516]How about refugees unfuck their own country rather than using our resources and money to save them from the sea because they are stupid enough to spend big money to try and cross the ocean in a fucking dingy.[/QUOTE] These people often have nothing to lose. Stop pretending it's like going on a vacation for them. They are desperate and often with no other real choices. [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=DaMastez;47747519]The west has tried that with not much success. [/QUOTE] Well and trying to enforce the sea as some kind of impassable moat is surely going to work wonders. I know this is a situation with no easy answers but we can't consider ourselves civilised if we don't put more effort into trying to help them then into trying to keep them away from us.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;47747399]but knowing how desperate people smugglers are, they're going to try anyway[/QUOTE] Hard to cross a sea without a boat. [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747431]This sounds like a terrible idea. The smugglers will capture or buy new boats in the area, and increase the cost of them which will hurt any locals who might want a boat for legit reason like fishing or cargo transport. It also means the smugglers will be more desperate and use worse and worse ships, which means there will be more refugees drowning. How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from, so they don't have the initiative to throw themselves at the slim chance they might survive way to Europe? That's IMHO the only morally acceptable way of "dealing" with the immigration.[/QUOTE] It's fucking funny how people are always shouting about the US needing to get their dick out of everyones business and to stop doing their thing, the second anything else happens it's time for someone to jump in and fix the problem. Here's my question, what the fuck is the African Union doing during all this? While the EU is forced to deal with fucking tides of people and forced to actually put together a military operation to stop the influx of people the AU is sitting with its thumb firmly jammed in it's arse.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747431]This sounds like a terrible idea. The smugglers will capture or buy new boats in the area, and increase the cost of them which will hurt any locals who might want a boat for legit reason like fishing or cargo transport. It also means the smugglers will be more desperate and use worse and worse ships, which means there will be more refugees drowning. How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from, so they don't have the initiative to throw themselves at the slim chance they might survive way to Europe? That's IMHO the only morally acceptable way of "dealing" with the immigration.[/QUOTE] Ignoring for a moment that this interventionist savior mentality been tried multiple times before in Africa, often with disastrous results... where do you propose the money for this is pulled from? Out of thin air? Almost every country in the EU has some considerable measure of financial strain and you would like them to start dedicating resources to solving a shitstorm of problems in other countries when they cant even keep a handle on the problems in their own countries? Which sector gets their resources cut and who do you call on to quell the shitstorm when their constituents realize the economy gets worse? Well yes, I suppose it is very easy to say what "should" be done when you pay absolutely no cost for being wrong. Or cost at all in any event. [QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747545] Well and trying to enforce the sea as some kind of impassable moat is surely going to work wonders.[/QUOTE] Its telling that the countries that these people choose to flock to are the ones with a reputation for being browbeaten into facilitating these people. [quote] I know this is a situation with no easy answers but we can't consider ourselves civilised if we don't put more effort into trying to help them then into trying to keep them away from us. [/quote] This is a rather absurd logical leap. Are you a barbarian simply because you didn't devote half your paycheck to survivors of a natural disaster half a world away?
[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47747633] It's fucking funny how people are always shouting about the US needing to get their dick out of everyones business and to stop doing their thing, the second anything else happens it's time for someone to jump in and fix the problem.[/QUOTE] It's something different when USA declares war to literally entire nations all the way across the globe, and when EU could send more peacekeeping forces to support already more or elss legitimate governments in Africa which is clearly next door enough for people to constantly leak our way.
fighting symptoms instead of the cause, great
[QUOTE=MR-X;47747140]I hope they don't mean "By taking action in international waters" by blowing up boats while people are on them. If that is the case that is super fucked up and isn't that pretty much a crime?[/QUOTE] No they won't do that. During the anti-piracy operation outside of Somalia the warships usually force the boats to stop before boarding them. They then brought over the pirates to their ships before blowing up the pirate veseels, I'd imagine that they will do something similar in this situation.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;47747687]Ignoring for a moment that this interventionist savior mentality been tried multiple times before in Africa, often with disastrous results... where do you propose the money for this is pulled from? Out of thin air? Almost every country in the EU has some considerable measure of financial strain and you would like them to start dedicating resources to solving a shitstorm of problems in other countries when they cant even keep a handle on the problems in their own countries? Which sector gets their resources cut and who do you call on to quell the shitstorm when their constituents realize the economy gets worse? Well yes, I suppose it is very easy to say what "should" be done when you pay absolutely no cost for being wrong. Or cost at all in any event. [/QUOTE] Africa could be one day a massive market for European import as well as export. Revitalizing Africa would be an economical miracle for Europe. Seeing them as nothing but an economical burden is extremely short sighted. And regardless of this, sometimes you have to ask yourself about the value of things. [quote] This is a rather absurd logical leap. Are you a barbarian simply because you didn't devote half your paycheck to survivors of a natural disaster half a world away?[/quote] I didn't call anybody a barbarian, don't put words into my mouth. I also never talked about half a paycheck of anyone. This is a specific case, where the European Union is already agreeing to dedicate significant resources to treating symptoms of problems in Africa which are uncomfortable to us, instead of dedicating these resources to trying to remedy the actual problem.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747721]Africa could be one day a massive market for European import as well as export. Revitalizing Africa would be an economical miracle for Europe. Seeing them as nothing but an economical burden is extremely short sighted. And regardless of this, sometimes you have to ask yourself about the value of things. I didn't call anybody a barbarian, don't put words into my mouth. I also never talked about half a paycheck of anyone. This is a specific case, where the European Union is already agreeing to dedicate significant resources to treating symptoms of problems in Africa which are uncomfortable to us, instead of dedicating these resources to trying to remedy the actual problem.[/QUOTE] Id love to see that one go over in today's social climate. Europe saves africa - as long as they can tax the shit out of their natural resources. Ironically thats actually a feasible quid pro quo situation economically. But of course mass hysteria would arise over the shades of colonialism.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;47747749]Id love to see that one go over in today's social climate. [B]Europe saves africa - as long as they can tax the shit out of their natural resources.[/B] Ironically thats actually a feasible quid pro quo situation economically. But of course mass hysteria would arise over the shades of colonialism.[/QUOTE] The Chinese are already doing it and no one's getting upset, why not Europe?
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;47747749]Id love to see that one go over in today's social climate. Europe saves africa - as long as they can tax the shit out of their natural resources. Ironically thats actually a feasible quid pro quo situation economically. But of course mass hysteria would arise over the shades of colonialism.[/QUOTE] You don't need to tax the shit out of them to profit? Fair trade is profitable on it's own you know? [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] Our current primary way of measuring economic success on global scale is growth. Having more money to sell to and having more resources to work with is, on it's own, economically desirable, and they don't have to be black nor taxed unfairly for it to be an economic plus.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;47747795]The Chinese are already doing it and no one's getting upset, why not Europe?[/QUOTE] No one is getting upset because its fucking china. I'm not being funny, nobody says shit to china because tensions are high. The same way nobody really does anything of substance to get in the way of Russia. Because they are powerful, and ready to start a conflict at the drop of a hat. [editline]18th May 2015[/editline] and actually, I mispoke. People are getting upset about china's activity in Africa [url]http://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/19/08/2014/new-neo-colonialism-africa[/url] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18901656[/url] and hundreds more articles like it Just no one of any real political clout or otherwise power in any shape or form, for the aforementioned reasons.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47747709]fighting symptoms instead of the cause, great[/QUOTE] It's much easier to deal with the symptom then trying to fix the situations in a number of regions.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;47747431] How about instead dedicating effort to unfucking the countries the refugees are coming from, so they don't have the initiative to throw themselves at the slim chance they might survive way to Europe? That's IMHO the only morally acceptable way of "dealing" with the immigration.[/QUOTE] Haha you are saying this like it's an easily fixed problem. I get you, and you're right, but we both know that that isn't gonna happen, and the eu has to do something. Destroying boats seems like the best course of action, don't you think?
[QUOTE=thermobaric;47747938]Haha you are saying this like it's an easily fixed problem. I get you, and you're right, but we both know that that isn't gonna happen, and the eu has to do something. Destroying boats seems like the best course of action, don't you think?[/QUOTE] I don't because destroying the boats will only further hurt the already very feeble economic situation in the area and people will be even more desperate to leave. It's a short sighted non-solution. Helping the local forces to bust the trafficking gangs, locking them up, fair enough! They are definitely criminals! But just going there and purging the area of cheap shitty barges is only very temporary not-even-a-solution which will make the core problem worse.
[QUOTE=Killuah;47747709]fighting symptoms instead of the cause, great[/QUOTE] Why should we, the EU fight their cause?
[QUOTE=Adarrek;47748033]Why should we, the EU fight their cause?[/QUOTE] Stabilize the region. Invest. Stop emigration. Create a new market. Profit.
[QUOTE=Adarrek;47748033]Why should we, the EU fight their cause?[/QUOTE] Well, there's always the fact that historically, we, the Europe, are kinda who caused this, but that's secondary anyway. As pointed out multiple times thorough the thread, it's actually a clean and beneficial solution to the immigration problem. As we help socials stability in the region, people will be less likely to throw their life savings (and lives) to try and get to Europe.
None of those boats should anyways leave the shorelines, seeing how unsafe they are.
[QUOTE=AntonioR;47748041]Stabilize the region. Invest. Stop emigration. Create a new market. Profit.[/QUOTE] It's funny to see that people actually see this as a realistic solution to the problem. To develop Africa to the point where there is no attraction to Europe would require astronomical amounts of investments, during substantial periods of time, and even then there would be no certainty that the goal to develop Africa would be achieved by that. What happened to the idea that people were responsible for their own lives? In the end it's the Africans themselves that have the ability to change this situation. Foreign intervention isn't the solution imo.
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