• Setting Socialism Straight
    131 replies, posted
The following text is sliced from an editorial from AlterNet, written by Frances Moore Lappé. [release] “Socialist” has become the new favorite term of derision--working its fear-making magic because, for many Americans, socialism equals the great “government takeover.” It’s assumed to be not just un-American but downright anti-American. [Teabaggers] at their round up in Searchlight, Nevada, told us that “socialist” Harry Reid “hates America.” “We have a language of capitalism. We have a language of Marxism. But we have no language of democracy,” historian Lawrence Goodwyn once remarked. And we need one. Capitalism and socialism. Imagine if we just got some clarity on these basic terms alone. First, capitalism. To most of us, it’s quintessentially American. Many of us assume it’s democracy’s essential partner. But what is it? Capitalism is an economic system in which the person or body owning capital—productive resources like raw material and labor—has the power to make decisions as to the use of these resources and who benefits from them. The capitalist is in control, not the workers, not the community members, not the government. It is a system in which capitalists seek to gain for themselves the highest possible return on their investment. Reduced to these elements, it’s no surprise that capitalism returns wealth to wealth, leading to a jaw-dropping chasm between rich and poor: In our country meaning that one percent of households now have as much net wealth as the bottom 90 percent. Given this common definition of capitalism—with no built-in civic accountability—it’s no surprise that subsidiaries of U.S. companies, for example, sign contracts to [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/world/middleeast/07sanctions.html"]build up Iran’s energy industry[/URL], even while the U.S. government sees our national interest as putting the squeeze on that very same economy. It is paradoxical, then, that we see capitalism and democracy as best buddies when in reality they are driven by opposing principles: Democracy is about the wide dispersion of power so that everyone has a voice. But capitalism, merely left to its own devices, inevitably concentrates wealth and therefore power, so “capital’s” voice carries vastly more weight than citizens’. Little wonder that capitalism is losing friends around the world. A recent BBC poll in twenty-seven countries found that on average only [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2009/11_november/09/poll.shtml"]11 percent[/URL] believe it works well. In just two countries did more than a fifth of respondents believe that it works well “as it stands.” One was the U.S.; the other -- Pakistan. Even more dramatic, almost a quarter of all respondents see capitalism as “fatally flawed, and feel a new economic system is needed.” In France 43 percent hold that view, in Brazil, 35 percent. And now to socialism. What is it? Maybe it’s harder to define. Hitler used the term “national socialism” for his brand of fascism in Germany, which explains a lot about its bad name today. But “democratic socialism” or “social democracy” is commonly used to describe the Scandinavian countries, France, or the Germany of today in which government plays an essential role in making sure that all citizens have the essentials to thrive: Unemployment benefits in Germany, to take but one example, offer about two-thirds of previous pay, compared to less than half in the U.S.; and they last much longer. Americans see anything labeled socialism as restricting citizens’ freedoms. So, let’s add “freedom” to our list of terms that need our immediate attention. For, if freedom means in part enjoying power over one’s destiny, workers in Germany arguably have much more freedom than U.S. workers. ... More text here: [URL]http://www.alternet.org/story/146143/why_are_we_afraid_of_saying_%22socialism%22/[/URL] [/release] I see this everywhere. People need to stop associating socialism with totalitarianism. [I] On the revolution of 1917: The new regime promoted democracy and liberty in Russia. All citizens achieved equality before the law. Full freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, unions, and strikes became a reality. The secret police, flogging, exile to Siberia, and the death penalty were abolished. [/I] (Riasanovsky, Nicholas. A History of Russia. Page 443; seventh edition).
Socialism is much better then Democracy, in my opinion. After all, at many times the citizens can be absolute fucktards who don't know anything better than what propaganda tells them. Just look at Westboro Church, PETA, and many other incidents where retards get their religion and views involved with politics.
When you force people to pay for each other, there is no freedom.
[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;21067637]Socialism is much better then Democracy, in my opinion. After all, at many times the citizens can be absolute fucktards who don't know anything better than what propaganda tells them. Just look at Westboro Church, PETA, and many other incidents where retards get their religion and views involved with politics.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://my2bucks.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/teabagger3.jpg[/IMG] :foxnews:
[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;21067637]Socialism is much better then Democracy, in my opinion. After all, at many times the citizens can be absolute fucktards who don't know anything better than what propaganda tells them. Just look at Westboro Church, PETA, and many other incidents where retards get their religion and views involved with politics.[/QUOTE] Socialism is an economic system. It has nothing to do with whether a country is democratically run or not.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21067688]When you force people to pay for each other, there is no freedom.[/QUOTE] Because nobody has money to do what they want, right?
I don't believe in labels, especially when it comes to politics, but social democracy seems to be a system that I could see working well. Case in point is Scandinavia and the other social democratic countries.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21067688]When you force people to pay for each other, there is no freedom.[/QUOTE] When children have no opportunity to succeed because they have no public schools for education and need to work in factories seven days a week just to survive, there is no freedom.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21067688]When you force people to pay for each other, there is no freedom.[/QUOTE] When people can't find it in the good of their hearts to help those who are in need and less fortunate , there is no compassion and freedom will surely not last.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21067688]When you force people to pay for each other, there is no freedom.[/QUOTE] Nothing quite like the liberty of being condemned to living an impoverished life because you weren't born to a wealthy family, eh? [editline]10:29PM[/editline] I don't care if you're trolling or not, it's bound to be said and bound to be rebuttled by 4+ people
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21067688]When you force people to pay for each other, there is no freedom.[/QUOTE] What about the hard working guy in the factory who can't afford to get his cancer treated properly? Is there freedom there?
[QUOTE=Leaf Runner;21067637]Socialism is much better then Democracy, in my opinion. After all, at many times the citizens can be absolute fucktards who don't know anything better than what propaganda tells them. Just look at Westboro Church, PETA, and many other incidents where retards get their religion and views involved with politics.[/QUOTE] Socialism is compatible with democracy. Democratic Socialism.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21068066]Socialism is compatible with democracy. Democratic Socialism.[/QUOTE] Right. The USSR was a Socialist Republic (albeit a little bit too much power was given to Stalin). Trotsky should have taken his place :argh:.
[QUOTE=Wakka;21068129]Right. The USSR was a Socialist Republic (albeit a little bit too much power was given to Stalin). Trotsky should have taken his place :argh:.[/QUOTE] Thank you. Stalin needed to go fuck himself.
[QUOTE=Wakka;21068129]Right. The USSR was a Socialist Republic (albeit a little bit too much power was given to Stalin). Trotsky should have taken his place :argh:.[/QUOTE] The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.
As long as I can make a successful company and bask in my own money and do what I want with my own money I don't give a shit.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068146]The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.[/QUOTE] No, Stalin killed a few million people because he was batshit insane.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068146]The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.[/QUOTE] But socialism is just an economic system, this perfect human stuff has nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068146]The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you talking about?
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21068185]No, Stalin killed a few million people because he was batshit insane.[/QUOTE] No, Lenin and Marx both supported killing off the weak. (They got their ideas from Marx who got them from Plato, same as Hitler who supported the communists from the beginning)
[QUOTE=Wakka;21068129]Right. The USSR was a Socialist Republic (albeit a little bit too much power was given to Stalin). Trotsky should have taken his place :argh:.[/QUOTE] Ten to twenty million dead isn't a "little bit".
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068146]The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.[/QUOTE] Don't take history lessons from the sci-fi channel please. [QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068287]Hitler who supported the communists from the beginning[/QUOTE] No
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068146]The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.[/QUOTE] Perfect example of what wakka is up against trying to do by "Setting Socialism Straight"
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068287] same as Hitler who supported the communists from the beginning[/QUOTE] Now you're trolling. Anti-communism was always a staple of the Nazi platform.
[QUOTE]No, Stalin killed a few million people because he was batshit insane. [/QUOTE] He wasn't psychotic. He was ruthless. If you were an enemy of the state or are in opposition, you were sent to the gulag. On the upside, he brought stability to Russia much like Saddam brought stability to Iraq.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068287]No, Lenin and Marx both supported killing off the weak. (They got their ideas from Marx who got them from Plato, same as Hitler who supported the communists from the beginning)[/QUOTE] Are you sure?
[QUOTE=mastermaul;21068290]Ten to twenty million dead isn't a "little bit".[/QUOTE] Yeah, that sucked. Maybe 1/4 or less were innocent. But it's unknown. Also, ten to twenty million imprisoned, not exactly dead. They were put to work to infrastructure in Siberia to connect Eastern Russia to Western Russia. They were pretty much slaves.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068146]The USSR killed off millions of people in their so called "class war" so that they could create the perfect human. Socialism is great you are all right awesome shit right there.[/QUOTE] Socialism didn't screw up the USSR. Totalitarian dictatorship did. Just because the USSR was fucked up doesn't mean that aspects of socialism are inapplicable to modern democracies.
[QUOTE=FacepunchZen;21068287]Hitler who supported the communists from the beginning[/QUOTE] Hahah
[QUOTE=Wakka;21068339]Yeah, that sucked. Maybe 1/4 or less were innocent. But it's unknown. Also, ten to twenty million imprisoned, not exactly dead. They were put to work to infrastructure in Siberia to connect Eastern Russia to Western Russia.[/QUOTE] 7+ million were innocent of being Ukrainian, score one for socialism!
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.