Israeli military finds flotilla killings justified. Is anyone surprised?
271 replies, posted
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/world/middleeast/13flotilla.html?src=me[/url]
[release]An Israeli military investigation into its naval takeover of a Gaza-bound flotilla six weeks ago found that it was plagued by errors of planning, intelligence and coordination but that the killings of nine Turks on board were justified, according to an official summary of the findings released Monday.
Giora Eiland, a retired major general who led the inquiry, presented his classified findings to the military chief of staff; they were not released to the public. But a statement issued by the military said that the investigators faulted the military for not knowing who was on board one of the ships. A senior officer involved in the report said that at least 65 Turkish Islamic militants armed with metal sticks and knives were on the flotilla’s main ship, and had vowed to fight any effort by the Israeli Navy to board.
The scuffles that ensued led to Israeli commandos shooting the nine Turks, including one with dual Turkish-American citizenship.
“The team concluded that not all possible intelligence gathering methods were fully implemented and that the coordination between Navy Intelligence and the Israel Defense Intelligence was insufficient,” the report’s official summary said. “The team also pointed out that the anticipated level of violence used against the forces was underestimated.”
The investigators praised the commandos who rappelled onto the main ship from helicopters, saying that they “operated properly, with professionalism, bravery and resourcefulness.” They called the use of live fire justified. No dismissals were publicly recommended, but officers said some demotions or dismissals might occur.
The military’s investigation, carried out by eight officers, did not deal with larger policy issues like the legality or appropriateness of Israel’s blockade against Gaza or its takeover of the six-boat flotilla in international waters on May 31. A second investigation, led by a retired Supreme Court justice and including two foreign observers, has just begun its work. Neither, however, seems likely to satisfy demands for a full international investigation by the Turkish government. Turkey has withdrawn its ambassador from Tel Aviv and threatened further steps unless Israel issues an apology and sets up an international inquiry.
On Monday, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey stood by his country’s demands. “We will be a close follower of our expectations until the end,” he said during a visit to Belgrade, Serbia, according to the online edition of Zaman, a Turkish daily with close links to the government.
Everything that happened on board the Turkish flotilla six weeks ago remains a matter of controversy — who shot first, how aggressive the passengers were, how violent the commandos became, whether the action was justified in international waters. The cargo proved unquestionably humanitarian in nature — hospital beds, medicines, clothing — but the goal of the flotilla was to challenge Israel’s authority over what goes in and out of Gaza.
General Eiland, a former national security adviser, said in his briefing that more ships might try to breach Israel’s Gaza blockade and so lessons from what happened on the Turkish flotilla were important.
In fact, a Libyan vessel arrived in the area of Crete on Monday, with its crew saying it was scheduled to reach Gaza on Wednesday. Israeli officials have vowed to prevent it from getting through.
Israel created a blockade against Gaza, both by land and sea, three years ago, after Hamas, which had won elections the previous year, took full control of the Palestinian coastal strip. The goal of the blockade was to put pressure on Hamas, which rejects Israel’s existence and was firing crude rockets at its southern communities. Hamas has held an Israeli soldier captive in Gaza for four years. Israel has thousands of Palestinian prisoners in its jails and also set Hamas leaders and militants as targets.
The blockade, joined by Egypt, has suffocated the Gazan economy and barred people from coming and going except in medical emergencies, although food has always been let in. Following the takeover of the flotilla and the deaths on board, international pressure forced Israel to ease the land blockade.
Now the blockade is largely limited to the sea and to materials, like steel, that Israel fears could be turned into weapons by Hamas. There remains, however, intense international opprobrium because of the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the sense that the policy has done little to weaken Hamas.
General Eiland’s report finds that there was at least one gun on board because an Israeli soldier took a bullet in the knee that was not from an Israeli weapon. It also contends that Israeli soldiers most likely fired only after having been fired upon first.
“All the shooting was either when the soldiers were in immediate danger of their lives or when they had to rescue fellow soldiers,” said a senior official involved in the investigation, speaking under military rules of anonymity. He added that there were between four and six events in which Israeli soldiers were fired upon with live fire by those on board.
Passengers aboard the flotilla have mostly told a very different story, with some witnesses accusing the commandos of shooting randomly as they came aboard.[/release]
Time for an international inquest, I say.
time for an argument that will span 10 pages
[QUOTE=thisispain;23324108]time for an argument that will span 10 pages[/QUOTE]
15, judging by previous Israel threads.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;23324116]15, judging by previous Israel threads.[/QUOTE]
Come on thread v2!
Are they supposed to think that what they're doing is awful? If they thought it was awful...they wouldn't be doing it!
The world's become too beurocratic, nothing whatsoever is going to happen at all, accept it, they've gotten away with this.
Right, starpluck, BurnEmDown, get in here are do all the posting for the rest of us.
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;23324141]The world's become too beurocratic, nothing whatsoever is going to happen at all, [B]accept it[/B], they've gotten away with this.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly what we should not. We can realize it yes, but we should never accept people getting away with these things.
Oh boy!
:munch:
This is gonne be good!
On Topic: I am not surprised.
Of course.
Israel denied the UN's request for an international inquiry for this very reason.
[QUOTE=Miktor.;23324154]That's exactly what we should not. We can realize it yes, but we should never accept people getting away with these things.[/QUOTE]
Honestly I have a sickening feeling that it's too late to start. The world's been engineered to give as little leverage to the middle and lower class as possible. I'm not a conspiracy nut, but it's impossible for revolutions to occur, and true justice is scarce due to the way guvvenments fuel corporations which in turn fuel guvvenments. It's really a perfect way of shutting the little guy out and preserving power.
Shock of the century.
And part of the reason why it was denied was because it required Israel to hand over the video tapes from the passengers on board and the videos would contradict Israel's claim that the activists attacked first.
Broken automerge
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;23324199]Honestly I have a sickening feeling that it's too late to start. The world's been engineered to give as little leverage to the middle and lower class as possible. I'm not a conspiracy nut, but it's impossible for revolutions to occur, and true justice is scarce due to the way guvvenments fuel corporations which in turn fuel guvvenments. It's really a perfect way of shutting the little guy out and preserving power.[/QUOTE]
Well, they can't keep on this way forever, sometime they'll eventually break down. Let's hope that's before they've "broken" the world.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;23324209]Shock of the century.[/QUOTE]
Ye'd be surprised.
So is this thread gonna be about Israel or the New World Order?
I'm ok with this. Not letting an international investigation take place is just stupid as it's not like they don't already know all the military secrets that would be revealed. Apologising to Turkey is also not a big deal as there was some of their own killed so they probably should be nice to them, hopefully they do it soonish.
[B][URL="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-preparing-for-forceful-interception-of-libya-sponsored-aid-ship-bound-for-gaza-1.301557"]IDF preparing for forceful interception of Libya-sponsored aid ship bound for Gaza[/URL][/B]
[QUOTE=starpluck;23324221]And part of the reason why it was denied was because it required Israel to hand over the video tapes from the passengers on board and the videos would contradict Israel's claim that the activists attacked first.
Broken automerge[/QUOTE]
Wow, didn't know we're dealing with a psychic here. Well case closed, starpluck knows everything with no proof whatsoever, we can all go home now.
[editline]10:46AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=starpluck;23324256][B][URL="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-preparing-for-forceful-interception-of-libya-sponsored-aid-ship-bound-for-gaza-1.301557"]IDF preparing for forceful interception of Libya-sponsored aid ship bound for Gaza[/URL][/B][/QUOTE]
Oh what's that you say?? Israel is preparing to defend its national waters and the right to defend its citizens from rocket attacks??
HOW ABSURD!
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324265]Oh what's that you say?? Israel is preparing to defend its national waters and the right to defend its citizens from rocket attacks??
HOW ABSURD![/QUOTE]
See now, this is why I don't post in these types of threads.
[QUOTE=starpluck;23324256][B][URL="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-preparing-for-forceful-interception-of-libya-sponsored-aid-ship-bound-for-gaza-1.301557"]IDF preparing for forceful interception of Libya-sponsored aid ship bound for Gaza[/URL][/B][/QUOTE]
Just like that Irish ship, did anything happen there? They're cautious as shit now so I wouldn't expect another catastrophe or anything other than the ship being dealt with peacefuly.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324265]Wow, didn't know we're dealing with a psychic here. Well case closed, starpluck knows everything with no proof whatsoever, we can all go home now.
[editline]10:46AM[/editline]
Oh what's that you say?? Israel is preparing to defend its national waters and the right to defend its citizens from rocket attacks??
HOW ABSURD![/QUOTE]
You've lost it, man. You really have lost it. Your arguments have degraded to pure repetative contradiction and throwing the word rocket and terrorist around, and all you do is lurk The News looking for a chance to defend your country's reputation.
Face it, the only reason you continue to post in this community is to ramble incoherently about how every Palestinian is out to kill you.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324265]Wow, didn't know we're dealing with a psychic here. Well case closed, starpluck knows everything with no proof whatsoever, we can all go home now.[/QUOTE]
And so the flamewar has begun. You've also had serious problems with your sources in earlier discussions, so maybe you should focus on something else than directly attacking persons for their point of view.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;23324292]See now, this is why I don't post in these types of threads.[/QUOTE]
then who posted this
*gotcha*
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324265]Wow, didn't know we're dealing with a psychic here. Well case closed, starpluck knows everything with no proof whatsoever, we can all go home now.
[editline]10:46AM[/editline]
Oh what's that you say?? Israel is preparing to defend its national waters and the right to defend its citizens from rocket attacks??
HOW ABSURD![/QUOTE]
Last i checked the waters(where the ship is going anyway)are Palestine's not Israel's.
And the whole flotilla incident was done in international waters.
It's not his points of view that I'm attacking, it's his apparent "I know everything because I say so" attitude. He obviously knows that a UN guy in Gaza SPECIFICALLY MEANT the whole school grounds including both outside and inside, and he also knows without a doubt that the IDF has video tapes showing that they attacked first.
Let me ask you a question starpluck, when did the IDF seize these tapes specifically? (at what point during the incident).
[editline]10:55AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Llivavin;23324327]Last i checked the waters(where the ship is going anyway)are Palestine's not Israel's.[/quote]
Any proof?
[quote]And the whole flotilla incident was done in international waters.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter, according to maritime laws about blockades (such as the Helsinki Journals for example).
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324329]
Any proof?
Doesn't matter, according to maritime laws about blockades (such as the Helsinki Journals for example).[/QUOTE]
Uh, how about the water that's physically touching the Palestine border?
You know the gaza strip?
And they weren't even AT the blockade yet so don't pull that.
[QUOTE=Llivavin;23324327]Last i checked the waters(where the ship is going anyway)are Palestine's not Israel's.
And the whole flotilla incident was done in international waters.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's just me but I get sick as shit of going through the same arguments over and over again.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324329]Let me ask you a question starpluck, when did the IDF seize these tapes specifically? (at what point during the incident).[/QUOTE]
In a bad mood today are we? Witnesses said shortly after the surrended, the soldiers took things that could be construed as weapons along with most of the cameras (probably because they were pissed off) and herded everyone into the lower compartments. Stuff they didn't take then they confiscated later and "forgot" to return.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324329]It's not his points of view that I'm attacking, it's his apparent "I know everything because I say so" attitude. He obviously knows that a UN guy in Gaza SPECIFICALLY MEANT the whole school grounds including both outside and inside, and he also knows without a doubt that the IDF has video tapes showing that they attacked first.
Let me ask you a question starpluck, when did the IDF seize these tapes specifically? (at what point during the incident).[/quote]I know everything attitude?
[url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html[/url]
It says no Hamas were in the bombed school, but you were changing and twisting the statement so far to fit your own views to even say that "its possible that they didn't notice the smoke stream since they were like helping people"
[QUOTE=Llivavin;23324368]Uh, how about the water that's physically touching the Palestine border?
You know the gaza strip?
And they weren't even AT the blockade yet so don't pull that.[/QUOTE]
I donnu, where does it say that these are Gaza's waters on not Israel's waters (legally speaking).
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23324329]
Doesn't matter, according to maritime laws about blockades (such as the Helsinki Journals for example).[/QUOTE]
The blockade is illegal as declared by the Security Council in UNSCR 1860.
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