100 yr old Israeli General: We Razed Arab Villages, So What?
35 replies, posted
[quote]Brig. Gen. (res.) Yitzhak Pundak is celebrating his hundredth birthday. Pundak was the commander of the 53rd Battalion of the Givati Brigade in the War of Independence and went on to supervise the establishment of the Armored Corps. He was also Ambassador in Tanzania and a founder of Arad.
In an interview on IDF Radio, Pundak confirmed that forces under his command razed Arab villages in 1948.[/quote]
Did he not get the memo that the Arabs conveniently packed their bags and left?
[url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168912#.Ub59sPmkrwl[/url]
The 1948 war was fucking weird. It was a bunch of private armies getting together to fucking steal land from these newly created countries that the UN made.
why is israel so fucking awful
like, every piece of news regarding their army or government is just awful, and the worst thing is I just end up being prejudiced towards it just because it generally saves time
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41064376]why is israel so fucking awful
like, every piece of news regarding their army or government is just awful, and the worst thing is I just end up being prejudiced towards it just because it generally saves time[/QUOTE]
It's because you only go into Sensationalist Headlines.
Israel is fucking shit regarding international policy etc.. but you can't simply dismiss a whole population as awful over what their government does.
[QUOTE]why is israel so fucking awful[/QUOTE]
Because they have gone through awful shit and have inherited/got effects from that awful shit that made them even worse shit.
I think we can call it "The Weimar Republic" Syndrome.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;41064579]Because they have gone through awful shit and have inherited/got effects from that awful shit that made them even worse shit.
I think we can call it "The Weimar Republic" Syndrome.[/QUOTE]
Suck it up. I fucking hate this excuse since they were a minority to the total amount killed. Tough shit, the holocaust happened three to four fucking generations ago. Guess what, There was another holocaust that had about 4 times as many deaths, it was the holocaust that the slavic people went through and you don't see them using it as a fucking excuse to blockade and starve out entire populaces while claiming land is theirs when they have no bearing.
I'm a third generation holocaust survivor and it drives me fucking nuts when people use it as an excuse to do terrible things or get away with shit.
[QUOTE]Suck it up. I fucking hate this excuse since they were a minority to the total amount killed[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, it does happen and it will happen.
[QUOTE]it was the holocaust that the slavic people went through and you don't see them using it as a fucking excuse to blockade and starve out entire populaces while claiming land is theirs when they have no bearing.[/QUOTE]
I really dont get the historical event, could you please tell me more or pass a link to said event?
[QUOTE]fucking excuse to blockade and starve out entire populaces while claiming land is theirs when they have no bearing.[/QUOTE]
Saying they use it as an excuse would mean they actually know they are doing wrong/bad stuff and try to justify it. The problem is, they DO REALLY believe they are 100% justified so they don't see it as an excuse.
That's what basically happened to Germany after being filled with volkisch/nationalist post WW1 stuff, coupled to Hitler which made people blind to any kind of thing you could imagine. Just what is happening with Israel.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;41064588]Suck it up. I fucking hate this excuse since they were a minority to the total amount killed. Tough shit, the holocaust happened three to four fucking generations ago. Guess what, There was another holocaust that had about 4 times as many deaths, it was the holocaust that the slavic people went through and you don't see them using it as a fucking excuse to blockade and starve out entire populaces while claiming land is theirs when they have no bearing.
[/QUOTE]
Does the Cold War not count?
[QUOTE=barttool;41064453]It's because you only go into Sensationalist Headlines.
Israel is fucking shit regarding international policy etc.. but you can't simply dismiss a whole population as awful over what their government does.[/QUOTE]
no, I don't judge the people, I just see a news story about israel and I'm like 'what have they done this time'
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;41064659]Unfortunately, it does happen and it will happen.
I really dont get the historical event, could you please tell me more or pass a link to said event?[/QUOTE]
During world war 2. The germans and other nations slaughtered about 24-30 million slavs, where as they slaughtered only 6 million jews.
[editline]16th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=scout1;41064684]Does the Cold War not count?[/QUOTE]
Eh. I don't count the beginning of it or agree with it, but it was reasonable in my eyes. They took land that was abandoned, distributed it to Poland to counter them taking belorussia.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;41064659]
I really dont get the historical event, could you please tell me more or pass a link to said event?
[/QUOTE]
in short hitler didn't just kill jews
[QUOTE]The germans and other nations slaughtered about 24-30 million slavs, where as they slaughtered only 6 million jews.[/QUOTE]
But you mean, as an effect of war/battle casualties? That would put them at the same level of French/Norwegian/Dutch/Belgian/American casualties.
Or as in an effect of a specific politic/doctrine targeting an ethnic group?
The main thing about the Soviets is that sure, they treated the Germans like fucking Garbage during the cold war, however, they still let them have a state and didn't reduce them to a 3rd world state.
[editline]16th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;41064726]But you mean, as an effect of war/battle casualties? That would put them at the same level of French/Norwegian/Dutch/Belgian/American casualties.
Or as in an effect of a specific politic/doctrine targeting an ethnic group?[/QUOTE]
Both casualties and specific targeting to free up land for future colonization.
About half of that was casualties. That still brings out up to 17 million civilians massacred.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;41064693]During world war 2. The germans and other nations slaughtered about 24-30 million slavs, where as they slaughtered only 6 million jews.
[editline]16th June 2013[/editline]
Eh. I don't count the beginning of it or agree with it, but it was reasonable in my eyes. They took land that was abandoned, distributed it to Poland to counter them taking belorussia.[/QUOTE]
The soviet union retained parts of poland it unlawfully siezed [I]in concert with Nazi Germany[/I], further expanded its border with poland, siezed konigsberg and the surrounding area, drove out the native germans & poles, and brought russian settlers in
Does this sound familiar at all? I have no love for Israel's resettlement policies but you can't say the land was "unused" except that the government drove the peoples away...
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41064376]
like, every piece of news regarding their army or government is just awful, and the worst thing is I just end up being prejudiced towards it just because it generally saves time[/QUOTE]
Compared to it's neighbours Israel is pretty alright. A democracy with a good liberal population.
Like most western developed countries Israel is just stuck with a militaristic conservative government.
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41064376]why is israel so fucking awful
like, every piece of news regarding their army or government is just awful, and the worst thing is I just end up being prejudiced towards it just because it generally saves time[/QUOTE]
Because the media gets more ratings talking about the shitty stuff Israel does. Do you honestly think they care?
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;41066214]Because the media gets more ratings talking about the shitty stuff Israel does. Do you honestly think they care?[/QUOTE]
The media seems to be more about showing support for Israel and not criticizing it's governments actions.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41066262]The media seems to be more about showing support for Israel and not criticizing it's governments actions.[/QUOTE]
It were like that a few years ago, but it seems even the [I]General Media[/I] is tired of Israel's bullshit.
[QUOTE=barttool;41064453]It's because you only go into Sensationalist Headlines.
Israel is fucking shit regarding international policy etc.. but you can't simply dismiss a whole population as awful over what their government does.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't there a study that proved that the majority of israelis were racist pricks against the Palestinian arabs? Someone dig it up.
[QUOTE=Orkel;41067571]Wasn't there a study that proved that the majority of israelis were racist pricks against the Palestinian arabs? Someone dig it up.[/QUOTE]
So?
This is the same as taking the same opinion survey during WW2 or the war in Iraq. Both sides hold resentment towards one another, especially often being in dozens of conflicts for nearly a century. If you ran the same test in the Gaza Strip you'd get the same 'racist' results. Should come as no surprise, really.
And even while the citizens don't think too fondly of Palestinians, the government is giving them the best national service than any other Arab nation that has accepted Palestinian refugees. Palestinians suffer from heavy persecution and abuse in many different nations like Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Libya and Kuwait. Compared to the Gaza Strip, which is already in absolutely piss-poor condition, it's literally hell. The refugee camps are unkempt and poverty-stricken, governments deny and revoke hundreds of citizenships while denying medical treatment, social security, education, gainful employment, etc.
I'm not trying to justify or rationalize anything because the state of the people living in the Gaza Strip is a direct violation of basic human rights, and I believe the population is sandwiched between a heavily-militarized nation that looks down on them, and a highly-abusive terrorist organization that somehow managed to establish a government. They've got nowhere to go, and it is easily understandable why there is a serious drug problem within the younger generation and the older generation prefers dying fighting for what they believe in even though it is probably in vain, then to sit around and watch as the situation just gets worse and worse. I am merely offering you some perspective, think of it what you will.
[url]http://hir.harvard.edu/blog/jacob-moscona-skolnik/the-silenced-majority-palestinians-in-the-arab-world[/url]
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/30/palestinians-israel-settlements-arab-countries-refugees/[/url]
[url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/may/21/20030521-094809-5098r/[/url]
[QUOTE=Melnek;41068248]So?
This is the same as taking the same opinion survey during WW2 or the war in Iraq. Both sides hold resentment towards one another, especially often being in dozens of conflicts for nearly a century. If you ran the same test in the Gaza Strip you'd get the same 'racist' results. Should come as no surprise, really.[/QUOTE]The difference is one side is a powerful occupier backed and aided by a superpower, and the other is an oppressed population. It is natural for the oppressed to deeply despise the occupiers and their inhabitants, but Israel's citizens despising the oppressed Palestinians indicates a form of racial supremacy on an even larger scale. Granted, some Palestinians do pose some risk to ordinary Israelis which would cause some racism against Palestinans, but the risk they pose to the Israelis is pale in comparison to the oppression Israel exerts on the Palestinans.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41068321]The difference is one side is a powerful occupier backed and aided by a superpower, and the other is an oppressed population. It is natural for the oppressed to deeply despise the occupier's and their inhabitants, but Israel's citizens despising the oppressed Palestinians indicates a form of racial supremacy on an even larger scale. Granted, some Palestinians do pose some risk to ordinary Israelis which would cause some hatred, but the risk is pale in comparison to the oppression Israel exerts and Israel's effective defense.[/QUOTE]
And I'm not the denying that, but is it really that far fetched or ludicrous to understand that even while only, say, 1% of the Palestinian population launches missiles at us that this will make them as a whole look rather unfavorable to the 'common Joe'? This doesn't mean they're racist, this simply means that people generally do not like other people launching missiles at them. And they will most definitely vote in favor of restricting rights to these same people because they rather not take any chances.
You're expecting tolerance and understanding from a population that was almost in a constant state of conflict since its foundation. I believe you are holding Israel to a much higher standard than you are holding Palestinians which are every bit as involved in this conflict as Israel is, and I also believe that picking sides here or being stubborn to accept the fact that a heavily-opinionated view in this mess, more so than any other mess, is not the path towards peace and coexistence. Of course neither of us is in a position to make any feasible changes, therefore I am criticizing the ideology behind it instead.
Picking sides is exactly the kind of thing that started this whole mess in the first place, and I believed Einstein when he said that problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.
[QUOTE=Melnek;41068468] I believe you are holding Israel to a much higher standard than you are holding Palestinians which are every bit as involved in this conflict as Israel is[/QUOTE]
Why shouldn't I? There are no "equal sides" in this conflict. One is an oppressive occupier that purports to be a democracy which is also backed by a superpower and the other is an oppressed population. You don't apply the same standards to the two.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41068321]The difference is one side is a powerful occupier backed and aided by a superpower, and the other is an oppressed population. It is natural for the oppressed to deeply despise the occupiers and their inhabitants, but Israel's citizens despising the oppressed Palestinians indicates a form of racial supremacy on an even larger scale. Granted, some Palestinians do pose some risk to ordinary Israelis which would cause some racism against Palestinans, but the risk they pose to the Israelis is pale in comparison to the oppression Israel exerts on the Palestinans.[/QUOTE]
There's a problem with this argument.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41068321]but Israel's citizens despising the oppressed Palestinians indicates a form of racial supremacy on an even larger scale.[/QUOTE]
While in comparison to the Palestinians, Israeli deaths from conflict are generally low, they are still in the hundreds. In the end of the day, at least from what I understand, your argument kind of boils down to "Laura got raped over 20 times. Jane only got raped 3 times, so what is she bitching about?"
You could say that my argument is false because one side is dominating over the other. This is wrong. We're dealing with a civilian population here. Average Joe on the Israeli side doesn't really care about what's going on in the West Bank or Gaza not because he's some sort of evil cunt, but because he has a life to live and, most often, a family to support. From his point of view, he's living his life the best he can without trying to hurt anyone, and some schmuck next door is trying to ruin that. How would a large percentage of the population [b]not[/b] become racist after years of this going on?
[QUOTE=Glorbo;41069252]How would a large percentage of the population [B]not[/B] become racist after years of this going on?[/QUOTE]
Joe needs to understand his own government's policies create Palestinian attacks on Israeli soil and should actively condemn his government for occupation and oppression it induces instead of resorting to racism.
[quote]While in comparison to the Palestinians, Israeli deaths from conflict are generally low, they are still in the hundreds. In the end of the day, at least from what I understand, your argument kind of boils down to "[B]Laura got raped over 20 times. Jane only got raped 3 times, so what is she bitching about[/B]?"[/quote] No, I'm not saying Israel doesn't have a right to protest Palestinian attacks, but to be racist towards Palestinians especially considering they spawn and empower them by daily occupation and oppression is inexcusable.
[QUOTE=barttool;41064453]It's because you only go into Sensationalist Headlines.
Israel is fucking shit regarding international policy etc.. but you can't simply dismiss a whole population as awful over what their government does.[/QUOTE]
I sure as hell can diss the fuck out of the shit government though.
For a country that was created in reaction to an entire people decimated by nazis, it sure is governed by a whole lot of massive fascists.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41069319]Joe needs to understand his own government's policies create Palestinian attacks on Israeli soil and should actively condemn his government for occupation and oppression it induces instead of resorting to racism.[/QUOTE]
Said the college student to the average family.
Don't you get it? The vast majority of people don't care about what happens with the palestinians, because they're human beings. And human beings tend to care a shitload more about their family then about some guy they don't know in a town they don't know from a place they don't know. Of course they're going to resort to racism, that's what human beings [b]do[/b] when confronted with these conditions.
"People should educate themselves" is a very nice catchphrase, but it's often an unrealistic expectation from anybody that has to support more than himself.
[QUOTE=Glorbo;41069460]Said the college student to the average family.
Don't you get it? [U][B]The vast majority of people don't care about what happens with the palestinians[/B][/U], because they're human beings. And human beings tend to care a shitload more about their family then about some guy they don't know in a town they don't know from a place they don't know. Of course they're going to resort to racism, that's what human beings [B]do[/B] when confronted with these conditions.
"People should educate themselves" is a very nice catchphrase, but it's often an unrealistic expectation from anybody that has to support more than himself.[/QUOTE]
It's interesting to know that Israelis are complicit and fine with their government comitting ethnic cleansing because as you put it, "they don't care." People often say that you should only criticize the Israeli government, but if the majority of the Israelis are as complicit and apathetic as you claim to the ethnic cleansing their government commits on the Palestinians, then I say fuck them and their government.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41069533]It's interesting to know that Israelis are complicit and fine with their government oppressing another race of people because as you put it, "they don't care." even though there is an active ethnic cleansing taking place. People often say that you should only criticize the Israeli government, but if the majority of the Israelis are as complicit and apathetic as you claim to the ethnic cleansing their government commits on the Palestinians, then I say fuck them and their government.[/QUOTE]
You're blaming them for being human beings. Our brains aren't meant to handle things that happen beyond the hill, we're not mentally equipped to worry about people we don't even know.
It took me 3 years to change my views about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and I was a high school student and college student with almost no responsibilities that uses the internet very frequently while visiting very left-leaning, liberal websites. Most people don't even use the internet for more than local news, Facebook and Twitter, let alone have the free time that I had/still have.
[QUOTE=Glorbo;41069684]You're blaming them for being human beings. Our brains aren't meant to handle things that happen beyond the hill, we're not mentally equipped to worry about people we don't even know.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between "not worrying about people you don't know" and "not caring that your democratically-elected government is committing ethnic cleansing against a group of people in technically the same country" which isn't normal at all unless you're insinuating that the vast majority of Israelis are racist sociopathic fuckheads.
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