• The Sensible Christian: Is it possible?
    565 replies, posted
Maybe. Listed below are my views of the world regarding religion. [B]The Purpose of this Thread[/B]: To address both theists, atheists, agnostics and everywhere in between and gather well-reasoned, logical input to better mine and others' views. I'm open to any comment or criticism, so along as it is meant to be helpful or enlightening. [B]1.) Religion =/= Faith[/B] If I had to call myself something, it'd have to be a deist. I believe and have faith that there exists some higher entity that had a hand in the creation of this universe, simply because I feel that it is true, not because a book told me so. The same goes for the divinity of Jesus as my savior. I have read many religious texts, and my gut/instinct/whatever you want to call it screams to me that this is truth. However, I don't condemn others that don't share this belief, and am always open to new evidence that regarding said beliefs. I read the Bible, the Qu'ran and various other religious books as historical documents. However, I don't follow any one faith to the letter set forth in the modern day. [I]I am very distrustful of texts interpreted/translated by humans[/I]. Who's to say a translator or scribe throughout history didn't decide to misconstrue or alter actual divine inspiration for his/her own profit? However, I do agree with certain aspects of certain religions. I like the Ten Commandments, for example. They're sensible, logical and conducive to a stable, peaceful society. [B]2.) All religions worship the same God[/B] One could posit that the need for a deity is/was essential to human nature. Several [I]separate[/I] cradles of civilization emerged early in human history, including Mesopotamia, the African tribes/civilizations, the Aboriginal tribes/civilizations, the Central American civilizations, China, India etc. All of these cradles had one thing in common; they all developed a form of religion that included one or more deities, separately, and presumably, for thousands of years, with [I]no communication between each other[/I]. This could be argued as either divine inspiration or a creation of the human psyche. Since so many civilizations were involved, this is a difficult coincidence to accept for me. [I]But thirty9th, how does one equate religions with multiple deities (e.g. Hinduism) with monotheistic religions (e.g. Christianity)?[/I] This is a region where I break from traditional thought. I believe that polytheistic religions worship [I]different facets or aspects of the same God.[/I] How the human mind chooses to interpret the presence of a deity could have varied from one civilization to the next. [B]3.) My main concerns in life are faith and love[/B] Love is a broad word. It could refer to the feeling a man or woman has towards another man or woman in a romantic sense, or a simply camaraderie and friendship. I believe it is the chief duty of mankind to better the condition of mankind through mutual acceptance and love of others in spite of differences or supposed faults. Love should temper all action, and I believe our earth would be a much better place, would more people realize this. From this, I also posit that free will is very important, if not necessary, to the formation of the best society possible. I agree with philosopher John Locke in the sense that actions are acceptable if they don't interfere with one's life, liberty or property. Militant or violent touting of one's beliefs, I posit, is wrong. If one believes one is correct, one should simply live in that way in the most visible way possible. Lead by example, and if it is truly meant to be, then others will follow. I highly respect Mahatma Gandhi, and he remains to this day one of my greatest inspirations in life. [B]In conclusion[/B], I would like to ask the opinions of Facepunchers and engage in some friendly debate, where possible. If any points are particularly good, I'll add them to the OP. [B]tl;dr I met God in Tibet and he told me that being Christian is the only way to get to Heaven[/B]
You know that no matter what this thread is going to turn into a flame war posting this here
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24305921][b]1.) Religion =/= Faith[/b] I have read many religious texts, and my gut/instinct/whatever you want to call it screams to me that this is truth.[/QUOTE] Here we go again.
hai thar, prove that God exists. i really do want to believe the things mentioned in the OP though, but there isn't much to support it with strongly.
I have a very christian friend yet he is probably one of the most logical, sensible people I know. When the Prop 8 discussion came around, he was cheering for the gays, and how you shouldn't force your values on anyone.
not all religions worship the same god just christianity, islam and judaism
[QUOTE=badMedia;24305992]not all religions worship the same god just christianity, islam and judaism[/QUOTE] beliefs, beliefs. Op can believe that we all worship the same God if he wants, its really the point of religion.
[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;24305977]I have a very christian friend yet he is probably one of the most logical, sensible people I know. When the Prop 8 discussion came around, he was cheering for the gays, and how you shouldn't force your values on anyone.[/QUOTE] It disappoints me that Christians have set such a bad example throughout the ages. I support full equality and rights for gays/lesbians. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians... they are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi.
This can happen and work out. Hell, I bet there are plenty of sensible Christians out there, you just have to get past the zealots and crazy people to find them.
It's sort of funny how you say all religions worship the game god, because it's true. A lot of religions are based on other religions, look at the differences between jesus and horus.
[QUOTE=badMedia;24305992]not all religions worship the same god just christianity, islam and judaism[/QUOTE] How do any religions differ their deity/deities from Abrahamic religions? In response to polytheistic religions, see OP. [QUOTE=TAU!;24306021]This can happen and work out. Hell, I bet there are plenty of sensible Christians out there, you just have to get past the zealots and crazy people to find them.[/QUOTE] They do in fact exist... but are rather difficult to find. It worries me. [QUOTE=Inacio;24306033]You have a nice point of view there, but 2 isn't new or original at all. I studied that on Teology classes, first paper on it is from the 17th century.[/QUOTE] Do you have any links to particular theories/information? I'd like to read it if you have anything lying around.
Nobody debates because they want to find the truth. The world would be a much better place if that was the case. Everybody debates to be right, to destroy their enemy. That's why a thread like this will never work. Ever.
[QUOTE=badMedia;24305992]not all religions worship the same god just christianity, islam and judaism[/QUOTE] They're all considered Abrahamic religions, but (correct me if I'm wrong) only Islam considers the three religions worshipping the same God.
No a sensible Christian is not possible because they still believe in some part of their religion and thus they have some small shred of irrationality. Picking and choosing things from the Bible or other "holy" scripture is just as irrational as believing in the whole thing, especially when all the evidence in the world contradicts said scriptures.
[img]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5341/popcorni.gif[/img]
Oh Lord, not another one of these.
[QUOTE=superdinoman;24306073]No a sensible Christian is not possible because they still believe in some part of their religion and thus they have some small shred of irrationality. Picking and choosing things from the Bible or other "holy" scripture is just as irrational as believing in the whole thing, especially when all the evidence in the world contradicts said scriptures.[/QUOTE] So belief in any god or higher being is ridiculous and immediately makes you a foolish human being?
[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;24305977]I have a very christian friend yet he is probably one of the most logical, sensible people I know. When the Prop 8 discussion came around, he was cheering for the gays, and how you shouldn't force your values on anyone.[/QUOTE] See and this is why I hate very religious people, because they force your values on you. I like the religious people that are open to observation.
[QUOTE=spacedooky;24306044]They're all considered Abrahamic religions, but (correct me if I'm wrong) only Islam considers the three religions worshipping the same God.[/QUOTE] Yep.
[QUOTE=superdinoman;24306073]No a sensible Christian is not possible because they still believe in some part of their religion and thus they have some small shred of irrationality. Picking and choosing things from the Bible or other "holy" scripture is just as irrational as believing in the whole thing, especially when all the evidence in the world contradicts said scriptures.[/QUOTE] What evidence contradicts the Ten Commandments? Does it matter if they ever physically existed? That is one of the only tenets of Christianity I hold on to, besides the divinity of Jesus, and I am still mulling that one over. Denying the Ten Commandments is pointless, not because you'd be wrong, that isn't true, but because whether or not they existed, they're still good rules. [QUOTE=Bobv2;24306041]Nobody debates because they want to find the truth. The world would be a much better place if that was the case. Everybody debates to be right, to destroy their enemy. That's why a thread like this will never work. Ever.[/QUOTE] I genuinely and honestly hope to revise my views if anything in this thread can inspire me to do so. My goal is enlightenment and the pursuit of knowledge.
[QUOTE=MrAfroShark70;24306095]See and this is why I hate super religious people, because they force your values on you. I like the religious people that are open to observation.[/QUOTE] "Super religious people" are the only ones probably following their respective doctrines. Most religions propagate the same idea in that you have an obligation to spread it's concepts.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24306015]It disappoints me that Christians have set such a bad example throughout the ages. I support full equality and rights for gays/lesbians. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians... they are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi.[/QUOTE] What, they aren't preachy, whiny, annoying people with an odd fashion sense that occasionally whip people they don't like? [editline]03:56AM[/editline] [QUOTE=thirty9th;24306120]What evidence contradicts the Ten Commandments? Does it matter if they ever physically existed? That is one of the only tenets of Christianity I hold on to, besides the divinity of Jesus, and I am still mulling that one over. Denying the Ten Commandments is pointless, not because you'd be wrong, that isn't true, but because whether or not they existed, they're still good rules.[/QUOTE] What, so you respect the sabbath? Graven images should be a criminal offense? Worshiping a God other than the abrahamic one is bad? The ten commandments are a load of shit.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;24306090]So belief in any god or higher being is ridiculous and immediately makes you a foolish human being?[/QUOTE] No people can be a theist all they like, but when they base their beliefs on scriptures that contradict reality that is irrationality, however in my case I am not a theist as everything must have a natural explanation. There really is no need for god in todays world. [QUOTE=thirty9th;24306120]What evidence contradicts the Ten Commandments? Does it matter if they ever physically existed? That is one of the only tenets of Christianity I hold on to, besides the divinity of Jesus, and I am still mulling that one over. Denying the Ten Commandments is pointless, not because you'd be wrong, that isn't true, but because whether or not they existed, they're still good rules.[/QUOTE] I will agree that a few of them are good, such as not robbing or killing someone. However much of the bible is filled with horrible human cruelties that cannot be made up for.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24306120]What evidence contradicts the Ten Commandments? Does it matter if they ever physically existed? That is one of the only tenets of Christianity I hold on to, besides the divinity of Jesus, and I am still mulling that one over. Denying the Ten Commandments is pointless, not because you'd be wrong, that isn't true, but because whether or not they existed, they're still good rules. [/QUOTE] Sensibility and morality are totally different from believing in the Bible. You don't have to be Christian to realize that the ten commandments are actually decent at what they were intended to do.
[QUOTE=thirty9th;24306120]I genuinely and honestly hope to revise my views if anything in this thread can inspire me to do so. My goal is enlightenment and the pursuit of knowledge.[/QUOTE] If that were true you would have pursued a career in science. You don't want truth, you want answers.
[QUOTE=amcwatters;24306133]"Super religious people" are the only ones probably following their respective doctrines. Most religions propagate the same idea in that you have an obligation to spread it's concepts.[/QUOTE] But you do get the general point I'm making, right?
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;24306167]Sensibility and morality are totally different from believing in the Bible. You don't have to be Christian to realize that the ten commandments are actually decent at what they were intended to do.[/QUOTE] Inspire fear in a stupid and gullible populous? [editline]03:59AM[/editline] [QUOTE=MrAfroShark70;24306192]But you do get the general point I'm making, right?[/QUOTE] That the less people follow the books the worship the better they generally are?
[QUOTE=MrAfroShark70;24306095]See and this is why I hate super religious people, because they force your values on you. I like the religious people that are open to observation.[/QUOTE] I think that people like these are only one step away from being Atheist. They only need to find the beauty of the natural world. Life has earned it's right to exist through years of hardship. They also need to realize that their religion condones twice as many horrible, horrible things as it does good things, and realize that the good isn't exclusive to religion. There's an amazing universe out there waiting to be studied and understood, and there's goodness a hundred fold compared to "God," which if he existed, deserves our scorn and hatred, not our worship and admiration. And plus, if you really look at it, the bible doesn't give life and people nearly as much credit as they deserve. I think the world is a much more amazing place in the eyes of a scientist than the eyes of a Christian.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24306195]Inspire fear in a stupid and gullible populous? [/QUOTE] It's an archaic law system, but it worked.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;24306135]What, they aren't preachy, whiny, annoying people with an odd fashion sense that occasionally whip people they don't like? [editline]03:56AM[/editline] What, so you respect the sabbath? Graven images should be a criminal offense? Worshiping a God other than the abrahamic one is bad? The ten commandments are a load of shit.[/QUOTE] I'll address each of these in turn. "What, they aren't preachy, whiny, annoying people with an odd fashion sense that occasionally whip people they don't like?" Preachy... as in...? He spoke what he believed to be true in a nonviolent fashion? [citation] needed on whiny and annoying, both subjective qualities You condemn people with odd senses of fashion? "What, so you respect the sabbath? Graven images should be a criminal offense? Worshiping a God other than the abrahamic one is bad?" I respect the Sabbath as a day of rest, yes. I keep it holy by keeping my heart open to God and reflecting on the state of the world. This one I can see your point on. Though I don't understand where you're getting the criminal offense portion. Third point, you didn't read the OP.
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