• Call of Duty “has almost ruined a generation of shooter players,” says Tripwire Interactive
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[IMG]http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2013/03/John4-610x325.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]Earlier this month I visited Killing Floor and Red Orchestra 2 creator Tripwire Interactive to play Rising Storm, the upcoming standalone expansion to RO2 (look for a preview on Monday). After the demo, Tripwire President John Gibson and I got talking about the state of first-person shooters, and Gibson laid out a detailed criticism about the way Call of Duty “takes individual skill out of the equation.” Gibson also expressed frustration over how difficult it had been trying to design a mode for Red Orchestra 2 that appealed to Call of Duty players. PCG: How do you feel about the state of FPSes? John Gibson, President: I think that single-player shooters are getting better. I think they’re finally coming out from under the shadow of the Hollywood movie, overblown “I’m on a rail” linear shooter. I’m talking about Call of Duty-style shooters. In the late ‘90s, you had the original Deus Ex, which was an RPG-shooter. And those kind of games almost took an eight year hiatus. And I’m so excited to see them coming back with interesting gameplay. Like the Fallout games, even though their shooting mechanics could really use some improvement, just mixing a really cool story, but not a linear story, one that you create yourself. The melding of RPG elements and shooter elements has been great. I’ve seen this reflected in a lot of the reviews, it’s like, “Okay guys, we’re tired of this on-rails experience.”[/quote] [B]The juicy part that matters and actually made me sad: [/B] [quote]On the flip side, I’m really discouraged by the current state of multiplayer shooters. I think that, and I hate to mention names, because it sounds like ‘I’m just jealous of their success,’ but I’m really, I feel like Call of Duty has almost ruined a generation of FPS players. I know that’s a bold statement, but I won’t just throw stones without backing it up. When I was developing Action Mode [for RO2], I got a group of people that I know that are pretty hardcore Call of Duty players. And my goal was to create something that was accessible enough for them to enjoy the game—not turn it into Call of Duty, but try to make something that I thought was casual enough but with the Red Orchestra gameplay style that they would enjoy. And we iterated on it a lot. And just listening to all the niggling, pedantic things that they would complain about, that made them not want to play the game, I just thought, “I give up. Call of Duty has ruined this whole generation of gamers.”[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/[/url] two page article sad to see how hard they tried to appeal to the mainstream players but couldn't do it
Everyone if you haven't already, buy Tripwire games. They're amazing. Always. Anyways, Tripwire has been smart and knows that a niche market can be more successful and more profitable than an oversaturated market. I hope that continues in the future because I am sure I am not the only one buying their games because they [b]don't[/b] feel like Call of Duty.
this part gave me feels: [QUOTE]Gibson: It’s the gameplay mechanics that they become used to. The way that players instantly accelerate when they move, they don’t build up speed. “The weapons really don’t have a lot of power” [in RO2]. They’re all very weak. The way they handle… They’re like: “I hate Red Orchestra, I can’t play it.” Well, why? “Because the guy doesn’t move like he does in Call of Duty. Call of Duty has great movement.” Why is it great? “Because it just is, I just like the way it works.” So you don’t like the momentum system in Red Orchestra? “Yeah, it sucks, it’s clunky, it’s terrible.” Well, why? “It’s just because I’m used to this.” I make it sound like there was a combative conversation, probably because I get a little emotional when I think about it. But it was really a calm discussion of, “What don’t you like?” and “It doesn’t feel like Call of Duty.” Almost every element boiled down to “it doesn’t feel like Call of Duty.”[/QUOTE]
"Almost"?
Most players were spoiled by CoD's mechanics. It's just easy to pick up with that you ended up being spoiled by it.
CoD's movement mechanics are about as accessible as quake's or doom's or half life's or unreal tournament's so uh???
"it ruined a generation of gamers because now my target demographic is smaller and my game isn't getting enough attention :(" newsflash, there are people that think differently than you, getting frustrated about that is stupid
Eh, not really. CoD didn't do anything games before didn't do, or most AAA shooters don't do as well. It's just top of the mountain and a really easy target for people to vent their frustrations at. It's just embarrassing that the president of tripwire has to drop that low and throw a well-made game and it's enormous playerbase under the bus. The modern combat arcade shooter is more popular than your PC exclusive WW2 realism game, it's okay dude.
I love RO2 for the fact that it actually takes some thinking to play. If you go out in the open guns blazing you're dead, and on top of that you didn't hit shit. It's the exact opposite of COD, and its what I love and have always wanted in a modern FPS.
"It’s the gameplay mechanics that they become used to. The way that players instantly accelerate when they move, they don’t build up speed." this is in like every FPS game ever made except for red orchestra apparently [editline]14th March 2013[/editline] can anyone who plays RO2 tell me wtf this momentum system is
[QUOTE=TheHydra;39908338]CoD's movement mechanics are about as accessible as quake's or doom's or half life's or unreal tournament's so uh???[/QUOTE] but which of those is the most popular and well known for the current generation of shooters?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;39908352]Eh, not really. CoD didn't do anything games before didn't do, or most AAA shooters don't do as well. [B]It's just top of the mountain and a really easy target for people to vent their frustrations at.[/B] It's just embarrassing that the president of tripwire has to drop that low and throw a well-made game and it's enormous playerbase under the bus. The modern combat arcade shooter is more popular than your PC exclusive WW2 realism game, it's okay dude.[/QUOTE] that was addressed by him in the article
Ah, so RO2 died due to tripwire trying to appease casual COD players? That explains a lot. Every game made with the basis of trying to appease COD fan bases have died, it all started with bioware.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;39908369]but which of those is the most popular and well known for the current generation of shooters?[/QUOTE] who cares? if you're gonna bitch about CoD making people accustomed to these game mechanics you should also bitch about all the important FPS games that do the same shit
On one hand, I like tripwire and I'm not to fond of cods multiplayer. On the other hand, I'm getting sick of people constantly dishing out on Cod. It's got problems, sure, but I don't feel like you can really say its killing the industry. People are kinda looking at a simple shooter franchise and expecting huge changes and innovation.
It's not Call of Duty that ruined it. Each could be considered a pretty good game if you look at just one and ignore the others. It's just the fact that there's been too many released during the same length of time with barely any innovation between games, as well as the plethora of developers who seek to emulate [sp]rip off[/sp] the various aspects and further stagnate everything.
[QUOTE=Vasili;39908374]Ah, so RO2 died due to tripwire trying to appease casual COD players? That explains a lot. Every game made with the basis of trying to appease COD fan bases have died, it all started with bioware.[/QUOTE] No it died because it had a hilariously terrible launch. The game mode he is talking about wasn't developed until well after release.
[QUOTE=cccritical;39908351]"it ruined a generation of gamers because now my target demographic is smaller and my game isn't getting enough attention :(" newsflash, there are people that think differently than you, getting frustrated about that is stupid[/QUOTE] He's talking about a generation of players who have played nothing but specifically marketed CoD style games, and as such they dislike a game that doesn't match up with it. Let's face it, everybody bitches about the CoD gamers invading their multiplayer games, and it's reflected in a lot of objective based games where nobody actually goes for the objective, instead just playing TDM regardless of mode.
He just keeps saying that CoD players suck really hard at playing shooters. And that it's just randomness that ever got them any kills in the first place, and they suck at aiming, and twitch-shooting, and being smart, and having friends, and everything else because they don't like a realistic shooter! I play ARMA 2 and 3, and frankly, I can completely see how most people don't like it. It's a different style of game with different goals. Don't bitch about how CoD is successful because they built an incredibly refined shooter that people have been buying ever since.
Mechanically, I'm ok with CoD. It's by no means a favourite of mine, but I can have some fun with it. But it's mindless and "who can shoot first" most of the time, and it's the effects of it that bother me.
[QUOTE=Reds;39908390]He's talking about a generation of players who have played nothing but specifically marketed CoD style games, and as such they dislike a game that doesn't match up with it. Let's face it, everybody bitches about the CoD gamers invading their multiplayer games, and it's reflected in a lot of objective based games where nobody actually goes for the objective, instead just playing TDM regardless of mode.[/QUOTE] CoD players of that sort are casual gamers who wouldn't play your game anyway so why even pander to them
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39908380]On one hand, I like tripwire and I'm not to fond of cods multiplayer. On the other hand, I'm getting sick of people constantly dishing out on Cod. It's got problems, sure, but I don't feel like you can really say its killing the industry. People are kinda looking at a simple shooter franchise and expecting huge changes and innovation.[/QUOTE] Before CoD it was Halo. Before Halo, Unreal. Before Unreal, Quake. It's the nature of things. People take their frustration with their games not being as popular as whatever FPS is popular at the time. Call of Duty will recede in time and we will have a new popular shooter franchise to pin all the blames of society on. I don't mind it so much when it's armchair game critics on forums or on news websites because it's easy to ignore, it's just really disappointing to see the president of one of my favorite developers drop to that level.
[QUOTE=TheHydra;39908401]CoD players of that sort are casual gamers who wouldn't play your game anyway so why even pander to them[/QUOTE] Because they're the dominant part of the market, that's why.
Coming from the devs who tried to casualize their game for COD kids and completely tanked their game by doing so. I feel bad for them but holy shit they couldn't have picked a worse move.
Also Red Orchestra 2 failed because it had a horrible launch and under delivered on its promises. The launch of a title will either make or break a game reputation, and they should have known this going in. It would have failed for those reasons all the same regardless of cod.
[QUOTE=Reds;39908390]He's talking about a generation of players who have played nothing but specifically marketed CoD style games, and as such they dislike a game that doesn't match up with it.[/QUOTE] in other words, a demographic that his game doesn't appeal to, which [i]really shouldn't[/i] be a problem considering they were never the intended audience [QUOTE=Reds;39908390]Let's face it, everybody bitches about the CoD gamers invading their multiplayer games, and it's reflected in a lot of objective based games where nobody actually goes for the objective, instead just playing TDM regardless of mode.[/QUOTE] are you blaming call of duty for people not playing the objective in other games? based on what? I could just as easily blame counter-strike, it's been around for far longer and has had many more players, and I bet I could count the number of hostages ever rescued on one hand
I can. In RO2, your movement is simulated based on how much weight you're carrying. So, as if you were about to take a step in real life, you slowly accelerate to a full jog as your knees enter full motion. While in CoD, you pretty much accelerate to full speed as soon as you start moving. Combined with how sprinting works in RO2 - you basically use short bursts of air, then lose your stamina and enter a sluggish jog - it can be a little daunting to the average CoD player. While some of TWI's management can be extremely whiny (Ramm is notorious for dissing on paying customers), he is right to an extent. If a game succeeds in the market, it's going to pull the market with it. That's just how the trend works. CoD and RO2 are polar opposites of one another, and CoD creates an FPS atmosphere where skill is overshadowed by quick gratification. It's no wonder that CoD players always jump for spray'n'pray weapons and gimmicks - the game is geared around getting as many rewards as possible in the shortest amount of time. Games like RO2 don't work that way. It's developed under a market that inherently doesn't value patience. So how can it survive?
[QUOTE=Reds;39908406]Because they're the dominant part of the market, that's why.[/QUOTE] Like I said, they're smart so they know that if they enter the over saturated market of generic run and gun, hide behind cover and regenerate your health modern shooters, it would alienate their existing fan base and it might not even sell as well. Look at MMOs, everyone wanted to be World of Warcraft 2.0 but instead, you have a thousand generic MMOs that took no risks, had no innovation and look where they're at now.
[QUOTE=Reds;39908406]Because they're the dominant part of the market, that's why.[/QUOTE] that's weird as fuck though. like, they're people who wouldn't play the more complex games anyway. they only play CoD and games like it because those are the games that happen to appeal to them. if CoD didn't exist then they wouldn't play shooters in the first place. fuck business
I don't think this is true, look at the hundreds of thousands that bought Arma 2 because of DayZ, and many of them, especially some I know, come from just playing COD and madden, and they loved it. And that was on a game with dodgy movement and guns that require aiming and bullet drop. Red orchestra 2 was pretty average, in my books. and honestly, the movement did feel dodgy sometimes in RO2
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