• Finland to Begin Basic Income Experiments
    88 replies, posted
[quote] HELSINKI (AP) — Finland has become the first country in Europe to pay its unemployed citizens a basic monthly income, amounting to 560 euros ($587), in a unique social experiment which is hoped to cut government red tape, reduce poverty and boost employment. Olli Kangas from the Finnish government agency KELA, which is responsible for the country's social benefits, said Monday that the two-year trial with the 2,000 randomly picked citizens who receive unemployment benefits kicked off Jan. 1. Those chosen will receive 560 euros every month, with no reporting requirements on how they spend it. The amount will be deducted from any benefits they already receive. The average private sector income in Finland is 3,500 euros per month, according to official data.[/quote] source : https://apnews.com/441e12c324b04d549c13366c891fe8d0/Finland-to-pay-unemployed-basic-income-of-$587-per-month?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP I'm pretty sure the US is running a basic income experiment as well right now.
I've got mixed feelings about this, While it's a good idea there is the possibility that it could lead to stagnation just as it could lead to a new golden age of humanity. I guess that's why it's an experiment.
Well with a combination of jobs moving out of first world countries and automation promptly removing them entirely in some cases this more or less has to happen eventually or everyone is going to starve to death. Here's to the future folks.
Well, seeing as there simply won't be enough jobs for everyone due to automation, self driving cars, overpopulation, etc, this is a good thing, and imo should be implemented more places. Of course, that is going to be hard in places which has allowed the rich to hoard the money necessary offshore.
Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?
[QUOTE=goon165;51616867]Well with a combination of jobs moving out of first world countries and automation promptly removing them entirely in some cases this more or less has to happen eventually or everyone is going to starve to death. Here's to the future folks.[/QUOTE] The loss of power for the working classes is quite troubling on the permanency of basic income though. I mean I could say that perhaps working hours should go down with automation, so that the jobs that remain have their hours split amongst the population. But with the kind of jobs that would remain, I don't really know if that'd work out.
There's also going to be a large 10 year experiment in Kenya, en several Dutch municipalities are also planning to do basic income type experiments. The idea is gaining a lot of interest in recent years.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] Like what type of work?
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] Then it wouldn't be basic income though. Research has also shown that just giving people money won't make them lazy or quit working.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] Such as? Also you should consider: If you're a university student working part time while studying and receive basic income, and the government would then force you do some petty work would be extremely demoralizing. Basic income would be for everyone regardless of if you are working, that's the point.
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;51616889]Like what type of work?[/QUOTE] Really, anything. Get them to pickup litter, get them to act a mentor to someone with depression, get them to help with classrooms for kids with disabilities. I can think of thousands of things off the top of my mind.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] I'd agree, but what exactly? The reason we need this is because there ARE no jobs. If there's nothing useful to do there's no point in wasting anybody's time. [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51616898]Really, anything. Get them to pickup litter, get them to act a mentor to someone with depression, get them to help with classrooms for kids with disabilities. I can think of thousands of things off the top of my mind.[/QUOTE] All of that creates extra costs, though. Or extra problems that need to be solved.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] This defeats the purpose of UBI. Refer to post above.
Considering how the government's been making cuts to pretty much everything, and especially being tougher on the unemployed, seems unlikely they'll continue with this after the conclusion of the experiment.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] While that sounds reasonable there is also point where working can actually make you earn less because all additional expenses if the salary isn't high enough which is also why so many unemployed people exist.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] Government here has very little in power to do such things, nor really a will to do so either. Besides basic income is barely even enough to cover rent in most larger cities. Also that "average" income seems bull, most people here make less than 3500e a month. Also this doesn't boost employment in any way or fashion since there would have to actually be new jobs made for that to happen. And it doesn't reduce poverty as the recipients would still get about the same if they were in the basic income or not. They should focus on how to get new jobs in here instead of wasting time figuring out what to cut from budget. Which they have been stuck on for the last 6 years by the way.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] The whole point of this is that you don't have to do anything to get enough money to survive.
this is more about simplifying the current welfare system and simplifying legislation rather than a whole new program. there just were a lot of different welfare programs. this is meant to replace existing benefits for students etc (and will benefit certain groups receiving welfare while decreasing the benefits of others). A simple welfare system can also help remove earlier welfare traps where getting a (very low income) job would effectively make you poorer due to the conditions of the benefits. basically you could become a full time welfare rat before in finland and you still can now but this experiment is meant to determine if basic income will decrease that or have other benefits. also just to get this out of the way earlier national experiments don't support that this would create a "new zero" income as this is redistribution rather than increasing the amount of money in circulation and consumer prices are more strongly influenced by the working majority. [QUOTE=ripsipiirakk;51616921]Government here has very little in power to do such things[/QUOTE] make new legislation bam you have the power. also you're saying that about a country with popular military/civil service for all men.
Im rather curious about how this would all work out. 560 Euros is £474 in gpb, just as a reference point that i know, a regular income while in Universal Credit was £255. Doesn't seem to be much if im honest with you, i might be wrong but 560 Euros a month doesn't seem to be much to live on when it comes the basics, although i might be wrong. Of course it is a "basic" income. Im on the fence about this.
[QUOTE=Highwind017;51616932]Im rather curious about how this would all work out. 560 Euros is £474 in gpb, just as a reference point that i know, a regular income while in Universal Credit was £255. Doesn't seem to be much if im honest with you, i might be wrong but 560 Euros a month doesn't seem to be much to live on when it comes the basics, although i might be wrong. Of course it is a "basic" income. Im on the fence about this.[/QUOTE] 500 Euro is a living monthly wage here in Bulgaria, I doubt it'll be enough in Finland.
I would be lucky to get 560€ for an actual job here. That is just around 100€ less than what a junior software developer would get starting out.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51616882]The loss of power for the working classes is quite troubling on the permanency of basic income though. I mean I could say that perhaps working hours should go down with automation, so that the jobs that remain have their hours split amongst the population. But with the kind of jobs that would remain, I don't really know if that'd work out.[/QUOTE] The entire structure of that power is built solely around scarcity of time and labor. That is why jobs exist, you need people to do things because you cannot do everything yourself. They are at their core an entirely practical and sensible creation brought about because there was no other alternative to success of a business, government, and in a grand sense human civilization. Now we're starting to get to the point where we don't need them anymore. Any attempt to hinder the rise of efficiency through token human positions where they could be done better is a waste of time and money and will simply slow everything down and hinder everyone and is against the entire point of a job to begin with. To facilitate efficiency. So it's not going to happen like that. The working class will not exist. And we'll all need to rethink what to do then after this structure becomes an obsolete hindrance thanks to other options becoming available, making the whole thing a temporary gap-filling measure in human history. We'll have plenty of time though, seeing as we won't need to go to work and won't worry about eating anymore.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;51616915]Considering how the government's been making cuts to pretty much everything, and especially being tougher on the unemployed, seems unlikely they'll continue with this after the conclusion of the experiment.[/QUOTE] I remember when there was an experiment to remove taxes from hairdresser prices or something. It worked wonderfully and everything went great with the experiment. It was never put to actual use after the experiment stopped, causing a price-raise so big that HUNDREDS of hairdressers went under. So I wouldn't hold high hopes for this either.
[QUOTE=angelangel;51616880]Get them to do at least ~some~ work in exchange for receiving benefits?[/QUOTE] I hate this line of thinking because not only does it completely defeat the idea of UBI but making people work for benefits actually makes the unemployment issue worse. The conservative government in my country has been doing "workfare" and it's total bullshit. When I was on Jobseekers allowance, they tried to push me into a placement cleaning at some offices in the town over. I was to be paid nothing for my work (other than the welfare I was already receiving) but was still expected to pay for my own uniform and travel costs. So now I'm working full time for free, I'm still claiming benefit, and I have less money than before to show for it. My question is: If the dwp have just found me a cleaning job that needs doing, why am I not being offered it as real full time work?, why am I expected to work for benefits, benefits that can be completely taken away for up to [i]6 months[/i] if I fail to apply for 30 jobs a week, instead of a salary? So my cleaning placement means one less job available to the growing number of unemployed people, without actually getting anyone out of unemployment. You have to ask, who benefits from this? other than the company whose labour is now being subsidised by the government? [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;51616898]Really, anything. Get them to pickup litter, get them to act a mentor to someone with depression, get them to help with classrooms for kids with disabilities. I can think of thousands of things off the top of my mind.[/QUOTE] If these are jobs that need doing then they should offer a salary for them. Besides, I don't think UBI would make people lazier at all. Right now one of the most crushing aspects of my seemingly endless job search is that I wouldn't even be that better off if I actually got lucky and landed a job and could start working. there's actually a huge chance my standard of living would go [i]down[/i]. With basic income, getting a job would mean that your income would double on the spot, with no drawbacks, no dents to the stability of your income, and no risks.
as many many others have stated in this thread, forcing anyone to do anything to get UBI completely and utterly defeats the point. it's supposed to straight up supplement incomes [i]before AND after[/i] you find a job so you can be secure at all times
I've seen people argue that UBI isn't feasible because it's too expensive, but they still leave automation unaddressed. If not UBI, what can else be done?
[QUOTE=AntonioR;51616958]I would be lucky to get 560€ for an actual job here. That is just around 100€ less than what a junior software developer would get starting out.[/QUOTE] I wish I had Croatian prices. Especially rent. The average where i live is 12€/(m²*month), cold, no other costs included
[QUOTE=fulgrim;51617070]I hate this line of thinking because not only does it completely defeat the idea of UBI but making people work for benefits actually makes the unemployment issue worse. The conservative government in my country has been doing "workfare" and it's total bullshit. When I was on Jobseekers allowance, they tried to push me into a placement cleaning at some offices in the town over. I was to be paid nothing for my work (other than the welfare I was already receiving) but was still expected to pay for my own uniform and travel costs. So now I'm working full time for free, I'm still claiming benefit, and I have less money than before to show for it. My question is: If the dwp have just found me a cleaning job that needs doing, why am I not being offered it as real full time work?, why am I expected to work for benefits, benefits that can be completely taken away for up to [i]6 months[/i] if I fail to apply for 30 jobs a week, instead of a salary? So my cleaning placement means one less job available to the growing number of unemployed people, without actually getting anyone out of unemployment. You have to ask, who benefits from this? other than the company whose labour is now being subsidised by the government? If these are jobs that need doing then they should offer a salary for them. Besides, I don't think UBI would make people lazier at all. Right now one of the most crushing aspects of my seemingly endless job search is that I wouldn't even be that better off If I actually landed a job and started working, there's a chance my standard of living would go [i]down[/i]. With basic income, getting a job would mean that your income would double on the spot, with no drawbacks, no dents to the stability of your income, and no risks.[/QUOTE] Wow, I knew it was bad over there but I didn't realize it was so inefficient. "Workfare" perfectly demonstrates why conservative solutions just don't work. That whole program is a bunch of feel good, do nothing measures that help nobody except whatever company is taking advantage of you. Just as expected from a conservative program.
[QUOTE=torres;51616879]Well, seeing as there simply won't be enough jobs for everyone due to automation, self driving cars, overpopulation, etc, this is a good thing, and imo should be implemented more places. Of course, that is going to be hard in places which has allowed the rich to hoard the money necessary offshore.[/QUOTE] Yeah, kinda sucks how some wealthy people scoff at the thought of helping others even a bit with their wealth through taxes everybody pays as well. It's so weird how poor people care about others more than the rich. What's up with that? Or am I being an uninformed, biased average joe?
We've had it for ages, but people have been outraged over the people who choose to forgo looking for work and living off benefits I don't know how well this is going to work out for Finland
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