• Orthodox Jewish women driving ban unacceptable, says Education Secretary
    28 replies, posted
[QUOTE]A ban on women driving their children to school issued by a Jewish education institution is "unacceptable", Education Secretary Nicky Morgan says. Leaders of the ultra-Orthodox Belz sect in north London wrote to parents saying "no child will be allowed to learn in our school" if their mother drives. Women driving "goes against the laws of modesty within our society", it said. The Home Office issued a response saying it was "developing a strategy to tackle extremism in all its forms". The Belz, who originated in Ukraine in the early 19th Century, are an ultra-Orthodox sect who follow Haredi Judaism.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32935767[/url]
If you want to do that in your own community and in your own country, go right ahead. But this isn't your own community, this is London and you're a public school (based on ultra-Orthodox Jewish religion, but still). Fuck off with that bullshit.
I wasn't aware of this being a thing in Judaism until I saw this. It doesn't stand at all. Hope they stop them from enforcing it.
How is putting a woman behind the wheel considered un-modest?
[QUOTE=FunnyStarRunner;47832151]How is putting a woman behind the wheel considered un-modest?[/QUOTE] [quote]It quoted the local Belzer women's organisation Neshei Belz as saying that they felt "driving a vehicle is a high-pressured activity where our values may be compromised by exposure to selfishness, road-rage, bad language and other inappropriate behaviour".[/quote]
Strip the school of whatever license it requires to operate. Shut it down.
[quote]It added that women with a "specific reason" to drive could submit a request to a special committee.[/quote] my sides
[QUOTE=Explosions;47832154][QUOTE]It quoted the local Belzer women's organisation Neshei Belz as saying that they felt "driving a vehicle is a high-pressured activity where our values may be compromised by exposure to selfishness, road-rage, bad language and other inappropriate behaviour".[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] I searched for the reasons given in Saudi Arabia to see if there are any similarities in Islam: [QUOTE]Sheikh Saleh bin Saad al-Lohaidan, a judicial adviser to an association of Gulf psychologists, recently told a Saudi website that "If a woman drives a car, not out of pure necessity, that could have negative physiological impacts as functional and physiological medical studies show that it automatically affects the ovaries and pushes the pelvis upwards.[/QUOTE] wat Beyond that I only got stuff like 'undermining muh social values'. All I see here is people treating women as subordinates and giving extremely weak 'reasons' to justify it.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;47832135]If you want to do that in your own community and in your own country, go right ahead. But this isn't your own community, this is London and you're a public school (based on ultra-Orthodox Jewish religion, but still). Fuck off with that bullshit.[/QUOTE] It's immoral in "their own country" because it's immoral everywhere. I'm also guessing that "their own country" is Britain and that they were born there.
Does it say in the article that the school is publicly funded? I don't see anything clarifying that.
[sp]Morgan[/sp] did nothing wrong
[QUOTE=ferrus;47832140]I wasn't aware of this being a thing in Judaism until I saw this. It doesn't stand at all. Hope they stop them from enforcing it.[/QUOTE] it's not a thing in judaism. I'm Orthodox and this is the first time I've heard of anything like this happening
[QUOTE=Svinnik;47832313]it's not a thing in judaism. I'm Orthodox and this is the first time I've heard of anything like this happening[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The Belz, who originated in Ukraine in the early 19th Century, are an ultra-Orthodox sect who follow Haredi Judaism.[/QUOTE] So technically [a form of] Judaism? You haven't personally heard of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing. There are different sects of Judaism that have different ideals. From Wikipedia: [QUOTE]Haredim regard themselves as the most religiously authentic group of Jews, and although this claim is contested by other streams, it is a perception which is often held in the wider Jewish and non-Jewish society.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Snowmew;47832241]Does it say in the article that the school is publicly funded? I don't see anything clarifying that.[/QUOTE] Given that its a religious school, AFAIK it will be privately funded.
[QUOTE=ferrus;47832335]So technically [a form of] Judaism? You haven't personally heard of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing. There are different sects of Judaism that have different ideals. From Wikipedia:[/QUOTE] It's a specific sect of ultra-Orthodox Judaism (or "Haredim"). Saying they're a thing in Judaism is like saying Westboro are a thing in the Baptist church, or something. Most ultra-Orthodox Jews don't consider women driving a taboo. OTOH they do consider women singing a taboo, so, you know. Religious extremists. They're not all that different.
[QUOTE=ferrus;47832335]So technically [a form of] Judaism? You haven't personally heard of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing. There are different sects of Judaism that have different ideals. From Wikipedia:[/QUOTE] Like no other Haredim do this. I've been to Crown Heights and Mea Sharim, they both let their women drive. I'm really familiar with Haredim in my opinion.
bigotry is unacceptable
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;47832576]It's a specific sect of ultra-Orthodox Judaism (or "Haredim"). Saying they're a thing in Judaism is like saying Westboro are a thing in the Baptist church, or something. Most ultra-Orthodox Jews don't consider women driving a taboo. OTOH they do consider women singing a taboo, so, you know. Religious extremists. They're not all that different.[/QUOTE] Women singing is considered to be taboo because apparently at the time it was considered really attractive for a woman to have a good voice. It would arouse men and shit like that. Men aren't allowed to listen to women singing. Women are allowed to listen to women singing and men singing.
[QUOTE=EditOutJ;47832502]Given that its a religious school, AFAIK it will be privately funded.[/QUOTE] Nah, faith schools here in the UK often get government funding, something I disagree with - the vast majority (something like 95%+) are CoE and Catholic, but there are also a fair number of Jewish faith schools, a small number of Muslim ones and a bare handful of Sikh and Hindu ones. I disagree with the use of public funding to fund religious schools, but it seems like it won't change. Odd fact, the education act 1944 required daily prayers, this was recently changed to a "collective act of worship" that is wholly or mainly of a broadly christian character in 1998. Yep, that is technically required in schools the UK. They can apply to change it from broadly christian for students via an excemption ("determination") but must replace it with another form of worship. Most skirt around it, but it really needs reform to be secular. I don't want the state funding religious schools - I am more than happy for religious schools to exist, but they should be funded by their own faiths instead of the public. If religious groups want their children taught in that manner, they are more than welcome to fund it. Faith schools, which are publicly funded, are allowed to discriminate in the students they accept based on their religion, though any gaps must be filled by any other student possible. Pupils cannot excempt themselves unless they are over the age of compulsory schooling, which is ridiculous. The British Humanist Association is involved in trying to get this all changed, but people just seem to let it all slide.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;47832599]Women singing is considered to be taboo because apparently at the time it was considered really attractive for a woman to have a good voice. It would arouse men and shit like that. Men aren't allowed to listen to women singing. Women are allowed to listen to women singing and men singing.[/QUOTE] True. Other things women aren't allowed to do in front of men as it might drive them mad with desire and stop thinking about the Torah are IIRC: -Show any skin beyond the face and hands. -Show, or even have hair. Shaving off their hair and putting on a wig made of human hair is allowed. -Touch men that are not their husbands. -Touch anyone while on their period. -Have their faces appear in any and all pictures, including newspapers and public ads.
Why are religious groups in Britain so isolated from society, the US is much more integrated even if we have terribly vocal haters
[QUOTE=Snowmew;47832241]Does it say in the article that the school is publicly funded? I don't see anything clarifying that.[/QUOTE] To be honest if it the place is a licensed school, it should be completely unimportant if it's publicly funded or not.
[QUOTE=Sableye;47833017]Why are religious groups in Britain so isolated from society, the US is much more integrated even if we have terribly vocal haters[/QUOTE] A lot of them are less well off so they are less educated on average and have less of an idea of how to fit in if they are religious. In America there is more of an established history of immigration and immigrant communities whereas in Britain there was a surge in it and hostility as a result.
I've been reading this as haradrim instead of haredim. Tolkien always bring news before his time. Also how are the children meant to get to school. I wouldn't want a bunch of 5/6 year olds wandering through north London.
[QUOTE=Sableye;47833017]Why are religious groups in Britain so isolated from society, the US is much more integrated even if we have terribly vocal haters[/QUOTE] It's like that all over the world in varying degrees. The people that act like this consider themselves always muslins and jews, never british citizens.
[QUOTE=Sableye;47833017]Why are religious groups in Britain so isolated from society, the US is much more integrated even if we have terribly vocal haters[/QUOTE] The US has plenty of groups I feel shouldn't be allowed to easily operate. Jehovah's Witnesses are fucking monstrous, which is something that's only been coming to light as more people talk about it after they realized the shit they'd been told their entire life was insane and their family had effectively shunned them and cast them out. Scientology is another one. Crazy, crazy people that do some monstrous shit to people involved in or who cross the organization. Including shang-haing them to church-run private prisons that double as cult industrial facilities. Imagine you were raised to believe that anyone who believed differently than you was inherently evil and damned, and then you realize how fucked up that is and your entire family locks you out and abandons you. That's how the JW work by many accounts from those who became disillusioned.
[QUOTE=thedeadlydodo;47833333]Also how are the children meant to get to school. I wouldn't want a bunch of 5/6 year olds wandering through north London.[/QUOTE] I assume this sect would rather see children wandering through north London than see a woman driving a car. In fact, if a woman blamed the kidnap of their child on the rules of the sect, I'm pretty sure the sect would stand by its belief. Misogyny and bigotry can seemingly only be cured by the death and replacement of the misogynists and bigots.
I looked up Nicky Morgan, and she looks like Marie from Breaking Bad I'm drunk
[QUOTE=Sableye;47833017]Why are religious groups in Britain so isolated from society, the US is much more integrated even if we have terribly vocal haters[/QUOTE] Because in the US, isolated religious groups were generally one of the pillars which formed the US state. It's also why you have so many random denominations. In europe some were either always isolated or are all fairly recent immigrants who immigrated for various reasons. In a sense, imagine if various south americans coming to the US also very fringe religious groups, often from a nonchristian religion.
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