As wave of terror and stabbings rise in Israel, Joe Biden reminds Israelis that 'physical force' can
35 replies, posted
[URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-israel-cannot-defeat-terror-with-military-force/"]Times of Israel[/URL]
[quote=Times of Israel]US Vice President Joe Biden on Wednesday asserted that Israel would not be able to stem the months-long upsurge in Palestinian violence and terrorism with military force, during a visit with Israel’s president. “[B]The violence has to stop, period… It cannot and will not be done just by physical force[/B],” Biden said in Jerusalem at a joint press conference with President Reuven Rivlin. “Israelis and visitors to Israel cannot go on being afraid to go about their lives for fear of being attacked.” [/quote]
Indeed, Biden brings an interesting point. As the stabbings rise in Israel, it is another direct-manifestation of the flawed Israeli policies on the subjugation of the Palestinians. As Ban Ki Moon [URL="http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=9417"]released in a statement[/URL], [quote=Ban Ki-Moon]
[B] Palestinian frustration is growing [B]under the weight of a half century of occupation [/B]and the paralysis of the peace process. [/B]
Some have taken me to task for pointing out this indisputable truth.
[U][B]Yet, as oppressed peoples have demonstrated throughout the ages, it is human nature to react to occupation[/B][/U], which often serves as a potent incubator of hate and extremism.
...
Continued settlement activities are an affront to the Palestinian people and to the international community. They rightly raise fundamental questions about Israel’s commitment to a two-state solution.
I am deeply troubled by reports today that the Israeli Government has approved plans for over 150 new homes in illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.
This is combined with its announcement last week declaring 370 acres in the West Bank, south of Jericho, as so-called "state land". [B]These provocative acts are bound to increase the growth of settler populations, further heighten tensions[/B] and undermine any prospects for a political road ahead.
I urge the Israeli Government not to use a recent decision by the Israeli High Court affirming a large tract of land south of Bethlehem as state land to advance settlement activities.
The demolitions of Palestinian homes in Area C of the occupied West Bank continue. So do the decades-long difficulties of Palestinians to obtain building permits.
The Bedouin community, in particular, is paying a heavy price. I reiterate the UN’s call for an immediate end to Israeli plans to forcibly transfer Bedouin communities currently living within the occupied Palestinian territory in the Jerusalem area.
At the same time, the humanitarian situation in Gaza remains perilous. [/quote]
After Netanyahu condemned Ban Ki-Moon's statement as "incitement" linking the stabbings to continued Israeli policies, Ban Ki-Moon dismissed him and doubled down in a later editorial in the New York Times.
[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/opinion/dont-shoot-the-messenger-israel.html?_r=0[/URL]
[quote=Ban Ki-Moon]United Nations — IN [URL="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/israel/index.html?inline=nyt-geo"]Israel[/URL] and the occupied [URL="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/palestinians/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier"]Palestinian[/URL] territories, 2016 has begun much as 2015 ended — with unacceptable levels of violence and a polarized public discourse. That polarization showed itself in the halls of the [URL="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org"]United Nations[/URL] last week when I pointed out a simple truth: [B]History proves that people will always resist occupation.[/B]
Some sought to shoot the messenger — twisting my words into a misguided justification for violence. The stabbings, vehicle rammings and other attacks by Palestinians targeting Israeli civilians are reprehensible. So, too, are the incitement of violence and the glorification of killers.
Nothing excuses terrorism. I condemn it categorically.
It is inconceivable, though, that security measures alone will stop the violence. As I warned the Security Council last week, [B]Palestinian frustration and grievances are growing under the weight of nearly a half-century of occupation. Ignoring this won’t make it disappear. No one can deny that the everyday reality of occupation provokes anger and despair, which are major drivers of violence and extremism and undermine any hope of a negotiated two-state solution.[/B][/quote]
Israelis quickly try to dismiss Palestinian grievances by adopting the "Israeli Utopian" dialectic i.e. that is — Israel is doing nothing wrong. They hold that these Palestinian stabbings and terror attacks are purely an attack meant to damage the will of the Israeli Utopian freedom, thus the Palestinians should [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1509677&p=49893519&viewfull=1#post49893519"]collectively pay "even further"[/URL] for the wave of violence in Israel.
This couldn't be a more ludicrous and embarrassing assumption. As Joe Biden has insinuated and the head of the United Nations made abundantly clear — these rise of terror attacks are in response to the no-progress decades-long occupation that Palestinians have endured on a daily basis. To take these stabbings indicative that Palestinians are inherently evil— independent of Israeli resolution — or that Israel is valid in implementing more occupation-security measures to subjugate the Palestinian people ("We should punish Palestinians even more") reveals to me one's inability to grasp even basic human fundamentals.
No. The answer does not lie in punishing the Palestinians even more with additional "security measures" The answer to this crisis would be to force Israel to comply with international law and pertinent United Nations Security Council resolutions that even their staunchest ally, the U.S. has endorsed; ending the brutal occupation. These rise of terrors and Palestinian grievances arise under the weight of a half century of occupation and Israel's paralysis of the peace process. The people have had enough.
The Palestinians will never have their land back, the western world has already made sure of that.
After a half century of occupation and the west turning its eye they may as well migrate to a new region. Israel owns America, we will make no move against them if they decided to throw Palestinians into labor camps again.
We threw them into that region and gave them freedom to do what they want, this is the result.
The reason this current wave of violence started was because Palestinian Imams spread the rumor that Israel was going to take over the Temple Mount and annex it.
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.681160"]http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.681160[/URL]
I love how you spin it to be Israel's fault that the Palestinians are attacking them. If you care so much about justice, how about addressing the issues on the Temple Mount? Currently, neither Jews or Christians on the Temple Mount can drink water or pray while on the Temple Mount, even though it's the site of the ruins of the 2 Holy Temples. How about addressing the fact that other Arab countries treat Palestinians like shit so that they will go and fight Israel? What about the rampant corruption in the Palestinian Authority and how the PA actually pays terrorists to commit terror attacks while pretending to be the ones advocating for peace?
Peace has to be agreed upon by both sides and the Palestinians are not reliable. Look at the ceasefires in the last Gaza war, Hamas was the ones who broke the ceasefire again and again.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;49902798]The Palestinians will never have their land back, the western world has already made sure of that.
After a half century of occupation and the west turning its eye they may as well migrate to a new region. Israel owns America, we will make no move against them if they decided to throw Palestinians into labor camps again.
We threw them into that region and gave them freedom to do what they want, this is the result.[/QUOTE]
The Palestinian will have their land. The United States, France, Germany, the United Kingdom and other top western powers hold that the return of Palestinian land is contingent to any peace settlement with Israel. With the EU labeling of any products made in the illegal Israeli-occupied West Bank (in which Israel compared to Nazi Germany's labeling of Jewish products), and other punitive actions against the settlements — it clear the Western community is revving up their game against the territories.
Israel knows they will have to deliver the land back to Palestine, this is backed by why they are so intent on transferring so many settlers to the West Bank. By deliberately stalling negotiations with the Palestinians, the Israelis seek to advance to the point of "no-return" where Israel can disingenuously say "There are too many settlers in the West Bank now to do such a thing." This was a fact publicly expressed by former Israeli premier Yitzhak Shamir, who after the 1991 Madrid negotiations stated: " "I would have conducted negotiations on autonomy for 10 years and in the meantime we would have reached half a million people" in the West Bank, hence creating "new facts on the ground."
Indeed, Israel has conducted negotiation for 20 years, while it has more than quadrupled the number of illegal settlers, surpassing the goal set by Shamir in 1991. By delaying a peace settlement in the West Bank, Israel has even more time to annex land in the West Bank, thus creating "new facts on the ground" in negotiations. I believe 20 years of negotiations is enough. Israeli stalling will do nothing but hurt the Israelis in the long run.
[editline]9th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49902862]The reason this current wave of violence started was because Palestinian Imams spread the rumor that Israel was going to take over the Temple Mount and annex it.
[URL]http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.681160[/URL]
I love how you spin it to be Israel's fault that the Palestinians are attacking them. If you care so much about justice, how about addressing the issues on the Temple Mount? Currently, neither Jews or Christians on the Temple Mount can drink water or pray while on the Temple Mount, even though it's the site of the ruins of the 2 Holy Temples. How about addressing the fact that other Arab countries treat Palestinians like shit so that they will go and fight Israel? What about the rampant corruption in the Palestinian Authority and how the PA actually pays terrorists to commit terror attacks while pretending to be the ones advocating for peace?
Peace has to be agreed upon by both sides and the Palestinians are not reliable. Look at the ceasefires in the last Gaza war, Hamas was the ones who broke the ceasefire again and again.[/QUOTE]
I am not spinning this. I am regurgitating the very valid points of the secretary-general of the United Nations and the vice president of the United States whom both have much more experience in assessing the conflict then either of us — their point being that — conditions in the West Bank and Gaza will only beget more violence towards Israel unless Israel decides to reach a settlement that ends the illegal occupation.
I'd start supporting Israel once the west bank is free.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;49902872]I am not spinning this. I am regurgitating the very valid points of the secretary-general of the United Nations and the vice president of the United States whom both have much more experience in assessing the conflict then either of us — their point being that — conditions in the West Bank and Gaza will only beget more violence towards Israel unless Israel decides to reach a settlement that ends the illegal occupation.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because I'm sure you listen to people because they have "much more experience," and not because they're saying what you already agree with. There are plenty of experts who disagree, and you would be the first to dismiss them.
You're not fooling anyone with the facade of neutrality.
[editline]9th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;49903960]I'd start supporting Israel once the west bank is free.[/QUOTE]
They tried to give them their own nation multiple times and the palestinians rejected the offers.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;49903960]I'd start supporting Israel once the west bank is free.[/QUOTE]
I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they weren't reaping what they sow.
They elected Hamas, Who's primary mission statement was the destruction of Israel.
Hamas indiscriminately launches rockets at israeli civilian centers.
Hamas uses construction materials to build huge underground tunnels to get under the border to attack Israelis.
Hamas rewards (their families, at least) martyrs and terrorists who stab civilians, a growing trend.
As long as Hamas exists, there will be no lasting peace between Israel and the peoples of Palestine, It simply won't happen. Hamas is too blood thirsty and the Israeli's aren't stupid enough to let themselves be destroyed.
There's one common thread through all major conflicts: either one or both sides has an authoritarian, non-democratic, political system. Why? Because free nations don't like war, and if they get into one, then they quickly tire of it unless there's a very good reason to keep fighting.
On one side of this conflict we have the free state of Israel where Jews, Christians, Arabs, and Muslims all live side by side in peace. They have open elections where everyone gets an equal vote, and all groups are allowed to run for office. On the other side we have openly Jew hating autocratic regimes that praise terrorists. It's obvious where the problem lies.
Also, the terrorism from the palestinians isn't a result of the military occupation. How do I know? Because there are a decent number of Christians (about 38,000) who live in the West Bank and, surprise, they've never done any of the terrorist acts against Israel even though they live under the same occupation. They don't spout the same rhetoric, they don't teach their children to hate Jews, etc. If the occupation were the cause, then we shouldn't see such a stark difference in groups living under the same occupation.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49904157]I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they weren't reaping what they sow.
They elected Hamas, Who's primary mission statement was the destruction of Israel.
Hamas indiscriminately launches rockets at israeli civilian centers.
Hamas uses construction materials to build huge underground tunnels to get under the border to attack Israelis.
Hamas rewards (their families, at least) martyrs and terrorists who stab civilians, a growing trend.
As long as Hamas exists, there will be no lasting peace between Israel and the peoples of Palestine, It simply won't happen. Hamas is too blood thirsty and the Israeli's aren't stupid enough to let themselves be destroyed.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say anything about Gaza, I said the west bank. Hamas has nothing to do with the west bank.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49904342]Also, the terrorism from the palestinians isn't a result of the military occupation. How do I know? Because [B]there are a decent number of Christians (about 38,000) who live in the West Bank and, surprise, they've never done any of the terrorist acts against Israel [/B]even though they live under the same occupation. They don't spout the same rhetoric, they don't teach their children to hate Jews, etc. [B]If the occupation were the cause, then we shouldn't see such a stark difference in groups living under the same occupation[/B].[/QUOTE]
Keep telling yourself that.
-[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Habash"] George Habash[/URL]: [B]Orthodox Christian[/B] — Founder of the far-left [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine"]Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine[/URL]. The PFLP was designated as a terrorist group by the United States, Canada, and the European Union.
- [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Bandak"]Chris Bandak[/URL]: [B]Greek Orthodox Christian[/B] — The leader of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade: a coalition of Palestinian armed groups in the West Bank. The organization has been designated as a terrorist organization by Israel, the European Union, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, and the United States. He is also the leader of Tanzim (militant faction wing).
- [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadie_Haddad"]Wadie Haddad[/URL]: [B]Christian[/B] —Was a Palestinian leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine's armed wing. He was responsible for organizing several civilian airplane hijackings in support of the Palestinian cause in the 1960s and 1970s.
For the few Christians that live in Palestine, many of them take up chief leadership roles inthe organized armed resistance and terrorism against the state of Israel. This is not an "Islam thing" this is called "human nature," as secretary-general Ban Ki-Moon [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/opinion/dont-shoot-the-messenger-israel.html"]eloquently puts it[/URL].
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49904157]I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they weren't reaping what they sow.
They elected Hamas, Who's primary mission statement was the destruction of Israel.
Hamas indiscriminately launches rockets at israeli civilian centers.
Hamas uses construction materials to build huge underground tunnels to get under the border to attack Israelis.
Hamas rewards (their families, at least) martyrs and terrorists who stab civilians, a growing trend.
As long as Hamas exists, there will be no lasting peace between Israel and the peoples of Palestine, It simply won't happen. Hamas is too blood thirsty and the Israeli's aren't stupid enough to let themselves be destroyed.[/QUOTE]
Hamas was elected after decades of Israel maintaining its illegal occupation. Hamas did not "spring into existence" in 1948 as some would like you to have believe. They were founded in 1987. That was 20 years of unchecked Israeli occupation and aggression with no meaningful gesture by the Israelis to remove it.
Who knows what group will rise into power in the next 20-40 years from now. But one thing is for certain, they will continue to spawn for however long the Israelis maintain their brutal occupation against the Palestinian people.
An interesting lesser known fact was how Israel directly aided and helped spawn Hamas. Israel has often encouraged and kept contacts with Islamist groups in Gaza in order to weaken the secularist PLO. [URL="http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847"]This went even as far as Israel aiding Hamas[/URL]. The desired result is quite simple. Hamas — a terrorist organization is born. In result, the secularists in Palestine lose their long-held dominance as Israel intended, and then they and their supporters can claim that peace can never be possible with Palestine due to the Islamists Israel helped spawn. You then have people like sgman91 ignorantly pontificating how it is only because of Islam, and simply has nothing do with resisting occupation — in effect — completely ignoring how the secular far-left movements are what have dominated Palestinian resistance for the majority of the occupation, until Israel later spawned Islamist groups to counter the PLO. It is quite genius really, but nonetheless an effective way to continue perpetuating conflict. Israel knows how to play political chess.
Starpluck's views on Israel are a complete joke and almost beyond parody at this point, I thought it was impossible to spin this wave of attacks on Israel but congratulations you managed it
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49904846]Starpluck's views on Israel are a complete joke and almost beyond parody at this point, I thought it was impossible to spin this wave of attacks on Israel but congratulations you managed it[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49904852]probably because Starpluck is anti-Semitic (masquerading as 'anti-Zionist'), that's pretty much the only way you can go justifying the genocidal intent of the Iranians[/QUOTE]
You don't seem capable of defending Israel beyond these obsessively-bizarre and strange character attacks across various threads. Admittedly, it is not difficult to call someone an "anti-Semite" irrespective if they are Jewish or not — but I do not expect much discourse from the one who labels critics of Israel as a mere "Jew hater" as a means to disingenuously circumvent debate.
Clearly the answer is simply to let Palestinian terrorists do as they please and not retaliate against them, or Hamas, or the Palestinian Authority or Iran or any other organizations which engage in this behavior or encourage it.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49904846]Starpluck's views on Israel are a complete joke and almost beyond parody at this point, I thought it was impossible to spin this wave of attacks on Israel but congratulations you managed it[/QUOTE]
That's something I noticed too. Feels weird seeing a mod pushing such hardcore bias agenda.
[QUOTE=Moronic;49904905]Clearly the answer is simply to let Palestinian terrorists do as they please and not retaliate against them, or Hamas, or the Palestinian Authority or Iran or any other organizations which engage in this behavior or encourage it.[/QUOTE]
No one remotely came to the conclusion of your strawman. Who are you attacking here?
Israel's closest ally; the United States said increased security measures alone will stop Palestinian violence. Israel has to do more than using their military against the indigenous Palestinian inhabitants. "Physical force...alone cannot stop the wave of violence" He is not saying to no longer use physical force, he is saying Israel must make meaningful concessions if they wish for the violence to stop. They cannot simply "brute-force" their way to muting the Palestinian expression of suffering, whether its violent or peaceful expression - by merely increasing Israel's security apparatus. It begins, by treating the Palestinians in the territories as decent human beings, and not second-class citizens who share land in which incoming-Jewish settlers possess prioritization (i.e. Palestinian home evictions to allocate room for a Jewish family) over anything else.
[QUOTE]Israel's closest ally; the United States said increased security measures alone will stop Palestinian violence. Israel has to do more than using their military against the indigenous Palestinian inhabitants. "Physical force...alone cannot stop the wave of violence" He is not saying to no longer use physical force, he is saying Israel must make meaningful concessions if they wish for the violence to stop. They cannot simply "brute-force" their way to muting the Palestinian expression of suffering, whether its violent or peaceful expression - by merely increasing Israel's security apparatus. It begins, by treating the Palestinians in territories as decent human beings and not second-class citizens who share land in which Jewish settlers possess prioritization over anything else. [/QUOTE]
There's no negotiation to be had. The Palestinians do not want a peaceful solution, they want the land which composes Israel. The PA is massively corrupt and anti-semitic, too, so that's not helping.
Israel isn't murdering civilians or calling for the destruction of anyone. Palestinians aren't second class citizens in Israel, they're protected by law just like Jews or any other ethnic group.
The only realistic solution is for Israel to invest further in security and wait for the current uprising to fade away. Even if you believe a peaceful solution is at this point possible, no progress can be made at this time.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49904846]Starpluck's views on Israel are a complete joke and almost beyond parody at this point, I thought it was impossible to spin this wave of attacks on Israel but congratulations you managed it[/QUOTE]
pretty pathetic to not actually deal with any of his points, and instead go for a complete garbage ad hominem
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49904943]pretty pathetic to not actually deal with any of his points, and instead go for a complete garbage ad hominem[/QUOTE]
That's pretty much all FlashMarsh does in most threads, at this point it's not surprising.
[QUOTE=Moronic;49904941]There's no negotiation to be had. The Palestinians do not want a peaceful solution, they want the land which composes Israel. [/QUOTE]
It seems you reversed the two parties here. First, it is widely recognized that the that the peace negotiations have been an elaborate charade allowing Israel to continue to colonize the West Bank. I direct you too [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1509899&p=49902872&viewfull=1#post49902872"]this post[/URL] where Israel has made this intention public knowledge back in 1992.
Onto your second point. The Palestinians have supported a two-state solution since the 1970s. The PLO — Palestine's sole representative in the United Nations, have already recognized the existence of the state of Israel back in 1993 following the mutual "[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition"]letters of recognition[/URL]" between Israel and Palestine. The PLO has then later consistently called for Israel to recognize a two-state solution, but have only been frustrated with [URL="http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/Benjamin-Netanyahu-Rejects-Two-State-Solution-Palestine-Israel-Before-Election/387919/"]repeated Israeli rejections, who want "whole land" that compromises Palestine. [/URL]
[quote]During a parliamentary committee meeting, Netanyahu told members of the Knesset that he has no current plans to [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-reject-palestinian-state_us_562e5f1be4b0c66bae58b878"]surrender control of the occupied West Bank to the Palestinians as part of a peace agreement.[/URL] [/quote]
Israel's outright rejection of a Palestinian state combined with Palestinians acceptance of an Israeli state followed by Israel's refusal to enter peace agreements have not only angered the Palestinians, but also the United Kingdom whom have warned Israel last year, that [quote=UK's Deputy PM]"[B]If Netanyahu rules out a Palestinian state[/B] and expands West Bank settlements, '[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.647834"]the world, including the British parliament, would have no option, but to recognize a Palestinian state[/URL],' [/quote]
Clearly, Israel's rejection of peace and goal to acquire the land that compromises of Palestine has attracted the ire of the international community and even Israel's closest allies.
Now you may be understanding why I noted that you have "reversed" the two parties in their aspirations for future peace here. But it does not end there — in the ruling government of Israel's charter, Likudnik, it outlines the plan to wipe Palestine off the map. It also reiterates its refusal to acknowledge any Palestinian state and that Israel consists of both the West Bank and Gaza. To put it simple, they outright refuse to recognize the existence of a Palestinian state anywhere.
The Likud Charter:
[quote=Likud's policy platform]a. “[B]The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel[/B].”
b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
c. “[B]The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state[/B] west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.[/quote]
Starpluck offers evidence and citations, even going out of his way to offer evidence on the other side of the argument because he values the truth and multifaceted nature of the situation.
All the other side has to offer is character attacks, ignorance (seriously, saying hamas is the government of the west bank?!) and sometimes straight up lies.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;49904988]It seems you reversed the two parties here. First, it is widely recognized that the that the peace negotiations have been an elaborate charade allowing Israel to continue to colonize the West Bank. I direct you too [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1509899&p=49902872&viewfull=1#post49902872"]this post[/URL] where Israel has made this intention public knowledge back in 1992.
Onto your second point. The Palestinians have supported a two-state solution since the 1970s. The PLO — Palestine's sole representative in the United Nations, have already recognized the existence of the state of Israel back in 1993 following the mutual "[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition"]letters of recognition[/URL]" between Israel and Palestine. The PLO has then later consistently called for Israel to recognize a two-state solution, but have only been frustrated with [URL="http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/Benjamin-Netanyahu-Rejects-Two-State-Solution-Palestine-Israel-Before-Election/387919/"]repeated Israeli rejections, who want "whole land" that compromises Palestine. [/URL]
Israel's outright rejection of a Palestinian state combined with Palestinians acceptance of an Israeli state followed by Israel's refusal to enter peace agreements have not only angered the Palestinians, but also the United Kingdom whom have warned Israel last year, that
Clearly, Israel's rejection of peace and goal to acquire the land that compromises of Palestine has attracted the ire of the international community and even Israel's closest allies.
Now you may be understanding why I noted that you have "reversed" the two parties in their aspirations for future peace here. But it does not end there — in the ruling government of Israel's charter, Likudnik, it outlines the plan to wipe Palestine off the map. It also reiterates its refusal to acknowledge any Palestinian state and that Israel consists of both the West Bank and Gaza. To put it simple, they outright refuse to recognize the existence of a Palestinian state anywhere.
The Likud Charter:[/QUOTE]
A couple of small corrections:
1. The Likud pary charter is not called Likudnik. "Likudnik" is a nickname for a Likud supporter.
2. Im looking at the [URL="https://www.likud.org.il/images/netanyahuadi/huka010715.pdf"]latest version of the Likud charter[/URL] (חוקת הליכוד) circa 2015, and it doesn't match your quote.
Paraphrasing from Hebrew, it states (quick and dirty translation by me, sorry):
a. Bringing all the Jewish people to Israel, blah blah.
b. Protracting the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel as an internal, undisputed right, [B]colonizing and developing all parts of the land of Israel and applying the state's sovereignty over them[/B].
c. Maintaining the state's sovereignty and its security and[B] true peace with our neighbors[/B].
d. Blah blah Jewish tradition values morality purity
e. Maintaining a a [B]democratic regime[/B]: guaranteeing the rule of law, [B]human rights[/B], freedom of conscience, personal freedom, [B]equal rights and opportunities to all citizens and prevention of discrimination[/B] based on gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, religion, class or view.
f. [B]Integrating minorities in state and party systems[/B].
And so on.
So generally speaking the Likud would have liked to extend Israeli sovereignty over the territories, but would still like to keep everyone in the as members of a free democratic state.
3. Netanyahu officially accepted the two state solution in his 2009 Bar-Ilan speech, and while he tried to weakly backtrack out of it later he was officially comitted to it as late as 2015 in his meeting with Obama.
Man, this is crazy. I didn't expect this anti semetic crap on Facepunch.
"Joe Biden reminds Israelis that 'physical force' cannot stop terrorism"
No he reminds Israelis that only one side is barbaric enough to try and kill people with knives, simply because they're Jewish (or did I mean Israeli?)
Calling people anti-semite here is like republicans calling you libtard. And yes, it is the exact fucking thing, just because it doesn't agree with your views doesn't mean it isn't true.
Neither side deserves it's own country, Britain should've just kept the fucking place.
[QUOTE=viper shtf;49905231]Man, this is crazy. I didn't expect this anti semetic crap on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;49905309]You haven't been here long enough then, because it's widespread whenever Israel is mentioned[/QUOTE]
Can you please point out to me where these vile posts of antisemitism are for me so I can ban them? Link me to the post. Don't say "this whole thread"
I am flabbergasted as much anyone that there are these stealth antisemitic posts lurking around here seem to "vanish" the moment I read this thread.
[QUOTE=Moronic;49904905]Clearly the answer is simply to let Palestinian terrorists do as they please and not retaliate against them, or Hamas, or the Palestinian Authority or Iran or any other organizations which engage in this behavior or encourage it.[/QUOTE]
If this is the post you guys are talking about, I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49905215]A couple of small corrections:
1. The Likud pary charter is not called Likudnik. "Likudnik" is a nickname for a Likud supporter.
2. Im looking at the [URL="https://www.likud.org.il/images/netanyahuadi/huka010715.pdf"]latest version of the Likud charter[/URL] (חוקת הליכוד) circa 2015, and it doesn't match your quote.
Paraphrasing from Hebrew, it states (quick and dirty translation by me, sorry):
a. Bringing all the Jewish people to Israel, blah blah.
b. Protracting the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel as an internal, undisputed right, [B]colonizing and developing all parts of the land of Israel and applying the state's sovereignty over them[/B].
c. Maintaining the state's sovereignty and its security and[B] true peace with our neighbors[/B].
d. Blah blah Jewish tradition values morality purity
e. Maintaining a a [B]democratic regime[/B]: guaranteeing the rule of law, [B]human rights[/B], freedom of conscience, personal freedom, [B]equal rights and opportunities to all citizens and prevention of discrimination[/B] based on gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, religion, class or view.
f. [B]Integrating minorities in state and party systems[/B].
And so on.
So generally speaking the Likud would have liked to extend Israeli sovereignty over the territories, but would still like to keep everyone in the as members of a free democratic state.
3. Netanyahu officially accepted the two state solution in his 2009 Bar-Ilan speech, and while he tried to weakly backtrack out of it later he was officially comitted to it as late as 2015 in his meeting with Obama.[/QUOTE]
"colonizing and developing all parts of the land of Israel and applying the state's sovereignty over them."
So they want to apply Israel's sovereignty over those lands. That is essentially the same thing as not recognizing a Palestinian state, as Likud merely wants to "colonize" Palestine and "extend their sovereignty" to the territories. I aware of Netanyahu's Bar-Ilan speech but it has so far been reversed by Netanyahu. If you could find me an article where Netanyahu reversed his reversal, and said he was committed to recognizing a Palestinian state. Post it here.
I also question point e. for as long as Israel seeks to maintain the 20% Arab-Israeli citizen status quo ratio.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;49905342]I do report them, one of them was banned just a while ago in the CIPWKTT, Lamar does it all the time when he posts in SH[/QUOTE]
So why are you bringing this up in a thread that has nothing to do with antisemitism?
I have spent a while crafting some of my responses here — and what response do I get?
"There is antisemitism on other subforums on Facepunch"
Okay.
Also, one does not say:
[QUOTE=viper shtf;49905231]Man, this is crazy. I didn't expect this anti semetic crap on Facepunch.[/QUOTE]
Unless there was antisemitism in this thread. Surely he did not come to this thread only because he found someone "banned from CIPWKTT for antisemitism" just to express his disbelief in that thread in this irrelevant thread?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;49905357]"colonizing and developing all parts of the land of Israel and applying the state's sovereignty over them."
So they want to apply Israel's sovereignty over those lands. That is essentially the same thing as not recognizing a Palestinian state, as Likud merely wants to "colonize" Palestine and "extend their sovereignty" to the territories. I aware of Netanyahu's Bar-Ilan speech but it has so far been reversed by Netanyahu. If you could find me an article where Netanyahu reversed his reversal, and said he was committed to recognizing a Palestinian state. Post it here.
I also question point e. for as long as Israel seeks to maintain the 20% Arab-Israeli citizen status quo ratio.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The current Likud charter does not include recognition of a Palestinian state as a party goal.
It's still a slightly less terrible charter than older versions.
here is Netanyahu backtracking on his backtracking:
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.685037"]http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.685037[/URL]
Finally, the Likud mandate isn't Israel's mandate, not even the current Israeli government's.
Israel as well as Israel's presiding Prime Minister have officially accepted the two state solution multiple times.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49905381]Agreed. The current Likud charter does not include recognition of a Palestinian state as a party goal.
It's still a slightly less terrible charter than older versions.
here is Netanyahu backtracking on his backtracking:
[URL]http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.685037[/URL]
Finally, the Likud mandate isn't Israel's mandate, not even the current Israeli government's.
Israel as well as Israel's presiding Prime Minister have officially accepted the two state solution multiple times.[/QUOTE]
I am aware, but Likud is the current leading government of Israel. And I only post Likud's charter in spite of the repeated linking and referencing of Hamas' charter despite its irrelevance. You may be aware of the rhetoric stemming from Hamas' very old charter which is the opposite of these recent claims by Hamas:
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915"]
Ismail Haniyeh[/URL]: [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915"]Hamas Willing to Accept Palestinian State With 1967 Borders[/URL] (2008)
[URL="http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders"]Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 Borders[/URL] (2011)
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.587047"]PA Official Says Hamas Accepted Two-state Solution[/URL] (2014)
[URL]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel[/URL]
And:
[quote]Dr. Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (the senior political leader of Hamas) claimed that Hamas has changed its views with time since the charter was issued in 1988.[18] [B]In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons.[/B]"[7][/quote]
The charter was born out of inhospitable conditions of the occupation in 1988 and was drafted by some unlinked Imam nearly 30 years ago. Hamas has made numerous statements that appear to be in direct contradiction of their charter.
My point was more or less how these charters and the often claims of "calling for the destruction of Israel" is wholly irrelevant in Israeli-Palestinian discourse.
The thing I don't get is why you think that Israel wants to resume conflict with the Palestinians. It costs Israel a shitton of money in both paying for the IDF and the lowered tourist revenue whenever these attacks. Esp considering the shit that Israel gets from the UN, the only reason it would be worth it is for the survival of the nation.
You still haven't addressed Hamas breaking all the ceasefires in the last Gaza war, the corruption in the PA, Palestinians being treated like shit in other Arab countries, and Iran + the PA paying terrorists money to commit terror attacks.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Starpluck;49905405]I am aware, but Likud is the current leading government of Israel. And I only post Likud's charter in spite of the repeated linking and referencing of Hamas' charter despite its irrelevance. You may be aware of the rhetoric stemming from Hamas' very old charter which is the opposite of these recent claims by Hamas:
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915"]
Ismail Haniyeh[/URL]: [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915"]Hamas Willing to Accept Palestinian State With 1967 Borders[/URL] (2008)
[URL="http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders"]Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 Borders[/URL] (2011)
[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.587047"]PA Official Says Hamas Accepted Two-state Solution[/URL] (2014)
[URL]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel[/URL]
And:
The charter was born out of inhospitable conditions of the occupation in 1988 and was drafted by some unlinked Imam nearly 30 years ago. Hamas has made numerous statements that appear to be in direct contradiction of their charter.
My point was more or less how these charters and the often claims of "calling for the destruction of Israel" is wholly irrelevant in Israeli-Palestinian discourse.[/QUOTE]
Going back to the 1967 borders is dangerous for Israel. If Hamas or another terror movement are close the capital of Israel, they can do much more damage than they are currently doing now.
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