• Venezuela one of the most dangerous countries, with 24,000 murders last year.
    33 replies, posted
[img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2014/1/11/1389448342844/caracas-crime-011.jpg[/img] [i]A woman holds a picture of murdered former Miss Venezuela Monica Spear and ex-husband Thomas Berry during a protest against violence in Caracas.[/i] [quote]Despite his record of social reforms, Hugo Chávez failed to curb the violence of gun-toting gangs that rob and kidnap. Some believe this is partly because crime was seen as a 'middle-class' problem. Their deaths have shocked and infuriated the already violence-numbed Venezuelans. Murders such as these usually go unreported on account of their tragic frequency, but Spear's fame made this different."We are all Monica," said a protester's poster in Caracas, as people gathered to mourn and voice their anger. Last year Venezuela was branded the most dangerous country in Latin America. A 2010 UN report places it among the top four most murderous countries in the world. While the government has refused to release its own statistics for years, a recent report by an NGO, the Venezuelan Observatory on Violence, estimates that 24,000 people were murdered in 2013 alone, a 14% rise on 2012, with nine out of 10 homicides going unsolved.[/quote] [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/12/violent-crime-makes-venezuela-dangerous[/url] Chavez has left such a great legacy. It would be even better if he was actually a competent ruler.
I'm curious to know why there is so much violence. There was an ok vice video on the same topic but didn't give a definitive answer
Surprising no one.
[quote]And, despite recent government efforts to curb firearms, Venezuela is the most weaponised place in the world. In a country of 29 million people, there is roughly one gun for every two people.[/quote] No, that's the United States, with 89 guns per 100 people, Venezula is 59th. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url]
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43523821]No, that's the United States, with 89 guns per 100 people, Venezula is 59th. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url][/QUOTE] For the Guardian to be such a reliable print, I'm rather surprised at how poor their research is.
This really doesn't surprise me all that much. The War on Drugs is tearing Latin America apart, and with how most of the United States's anti-drug militias go rogue with all the information they learn, you have highly militarized drug cartels roaming around the jungles and mountain sides, manufacturing whatever it takes to have the edge over the competition. I am honestly glad that their hasn't been any reports of chemical warfare in the drug wars yet. The only attempts I have heard of thus far were some chemical weapons found in a few bikie gang hangouts in Australia.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43524090]This really doesn't surprise me all that much. The War on Drugs is tearing Latin America apart, and with how most of the United States's anti-drug militias go rogue with all the information they learn, you have highly militarized drug cartels roaming around the jungles and mountain sides, manufacturing whatever it takes to have the edge over the competition. I am honestly glad that their hasn't been any reports of chemical warfare in the drug wars yet. The only attempts I have heard of thus far were some chemical weapons found in a few bikie gang hangouts in Australia.[/QUOTE] you are talking about Colombia and Mexico, not Venezuela, Venezuela's situation is very, very different, and there has been very little DEA or in general US influence in Venezuela's problem. Venezuela has no diplomatic ties with the US. Venezuela in the Latin American drug trade underworld is more of a gateway than a producer anyway. the ease of bribing officials in Venezuela has made it possible for humongous drug deals to go through the country unnoticed. and, surprisingly, most violent deaths are not the product of cartels, there's a fair amount of people who are killed in robbery attempts, where they are killed for their phones or for their cars; Monica Spear (see photograph) was killed in a carjacking attempt, both her and her husband were murdered in cold blood after apparently struggling, their 5 year old daughter who was sitting in the back seat was grazed in the leg by a bullet exiting her mother. in Venezuela everybody is killed, not just the rich nor the poor, everybody. if you're not killed, then you're kidnapped, over and over again. it's an institutional problem, it's what happens when corruption erodes a country from the inside out, and thus, you have the prisoners running the prisons and people who should be behind bars sitting as judges. you have cops that don't do shit because they're scared to do anything but take bribes, and then you have cops who are actually just thugs with badges. it's a really complicated situation but I can tell you two things, one, the US has nothing to do with it, two, gun control has nothing to do with it since guns have been illegal to possess as a civilian for years now, and before then they were very, very strictly regulated.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43523821]No, that's the United States, with 89 guns per 100 people, Venezula is 59th. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url][/QUOTE] That's still a rather high number for a country with a (to my knowledge) complete ban on legal ownership of firearms.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;43525760]That's still a rather high number for a country with a (to my knowledge) complete ban on legal ownership of firearms.[/QUOTE] Because prohibition doesn't work
[QUOTE=AugustBurnsRed;43525902]Because prohibition doesn't work[/QUOTE] This is empty and meaningless as a comment, on the same level as saying that the legal system is useless because people break laws. You should refine it to "Prohibition doesn't work in states with high levels of corruption and other institutional problems". Strong and efficient states are generally able to enforce policies, including prohibitions.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;43523688]I'm curious to know why there is so much violence. There was an ok vice video on the same topic but didn't give a definitive answer[/QUOTE] Central planning doesn't work. The world can't be run by supposedly benevolent elite of technocrats. The economy is not a machine. Pick one.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;43525723]you are talking about Colombia and Mexico, not Venezuela, Venezuela's situation is very, very different, and there has been very little DEA or in general US influence in Venezuela's problem. Venezuela has no diplomatic ties with the US. Venezuela in the Latin American drug trade underworld is more of a gateway than a producer anyway. the ease of bribing officials in Venezuela has made it possible for humongous drug deals to go through the country unnoticed. and, surprisingly, most violent deaths are not the product of cartels, there's a fair amount of people who are killed in robbery attempts, where they are killed for their phones or for their cars; Monica Spear (see photograph) was killed in a carjacking attempt, both her and her husband were murdered in cold blood after apparently struggling, their 5 year old daughter who was sitting in the back seat was grazed in the leg by a bullet exiting her mother. in Venezuela everybody is killed, not just the rich nor the poor, everybody. if you're not killed, then you're kidnapped, over and over again. it's an institutional problem, it's what happens when corruption erodes a country from the inside out, and thus, you have the prisoners running the prisons and people who should be behind bars sitting as judges. you have cops that don't do shit because they're scared to do anything but take bribes, and then you have cops who are actually just thugs with badges. it's a really complicated situation but I can tell you two things, one, the US has nothing to do with it, two, gun control has nothing to do with it since guns have been illegal to possess as a civilian for years now, and before then they were very, very strictly regulated.[/QUOTE] Weird, most of the view within the news and shit is that Venezuela is apart of the drug running area. Never knew it was that bad though. Thanks for clearing it up though. So would you mind me asking though, what do you think of Maduro going mental and believing that the United States is getting ready to invade your country supposedly?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43526271]This is empty and meaningless as a comment, on the same level as saying that the legal system is useless because people break laws. You should refine it to "Prohibition doesn't work in states with high levels of corruption and other institutional problems". Strong and efficient states are generally able to enforce policies, including prohibitions.[/QUOTE] For exactly the same reason that Prohibition of Alcohol didn't work here in the states either. There's always going to be someone with a need for whatever item there is, eventually going underground to get it. In fact, this is a perfect example as to why prohibiting guns is a bad idea, they would all end up going to the black market. Why? Because buying a gun is initially legal and there's already ample supply of firearms in said country, someone has a need or desire for a firearm and eventually the entire thing goes underground and traded illegally where there's no restrictions. Venezuela is a prime example. The only thing that would solve that is door to door collection of firearms and that would not only leave a populace defenseless against a malevolent government, it would also spark civil unrest due to the nature of the seizure and it's violation of civil rights.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;43525723]you are talking about Colombia and Mexico, not Venezuela, Venezuela's situation is very, very different, and there has been very little DEA or in general US influence in Venezuela's problem. Venezuela has no diplomatic ties with the US. Venezuela in the Latin American drug trade underworld is more of a gateway than a producer anyway. the ease of bribing officials in Venezuela has made it possible for humongous drug deals to go through the country unnoticed. and, surprisingly, most violent deaths are not the product of cartels, there's a fair amount of people who are killed in robbery attempts, where they are killed for their phones or for their cars; Monica Spear (see photograph) was killed in a carjacking attempt, both her and her husband were murdered in cold blood after apparently struggling, their 5 year old daughter who was sitting in the back seat was grazed in the leg by a bullet exiting her mother. in Venezuela everybody is killed, not just the rich nor the poor, everybody. if you're not killed, then you're kidnapped, over and over again. it's an institutional problem, it's what happens when corruption erodes a country from the inside out, and thus, you have the prisoners running the prisons and people who should be behind bars sitting as judges. you have cops that don't do shit because they're scared to do anything but take bribes, and then you have cops who are actually just thugs with badges. it's a really complicated situation but I can tell you two things, one, the US has nothing to do with it, two, gun control has nothing to do with it since guns have been illegal to possess as a civilian for years now, and before then they were very, very strictly regulated.[/QUOTE] Damn man, you need to get the fuck out of there. I'm honestly scared for you, no offense but if it's really [i]that[/i] bad that's awful..
[QUOTE=Xystus234;43526642]For exactly the same reason that Prohibition of Alcohol didn't work here in the states either. There's always going to be someone with a need for whatever item there is, eventually going underground to get it. In fact, this is a perfect example as to why prohibiting guns is a bad idea, they would all end up going to the black market. Why? Because buying a gun is initially legal and there's already ample supply of firearms in said country, someone has a need or desire for a firearm and eventually the entire thing goes underground and traded illegally where there's no restrictions.[/quote] Prohibition works pretty well when the state is strong, rule of law is followed by the people, and laws are enforced. A lot of countries and communities have banned firearms, alcohol, and other drugs beforehand and have been able to heavily crack down on all three. Examples aplenty in Europe and Asia from the general confiscation of firearms from populations and controls on the sale and consumption of various drugs (state intervention has worked before in this regard). The examples you cite of as failure are countries which were already highly corrupt and often unable to enforce the law for such a reason. America isn't like that anymore. You could put in tougher restrictions on firearms and only a minority consisting of the conservatives (who economically, socially, and politically are constantly being marginalized and are on the path to extinction anyways) really complain.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43526716]Prohibition works pretty well when the state is strong, rule of law is followed by the people, and laws are enforced. A lot of countries and communities have banned firearms, alcohol, and other drugs beforehand and have been able to heavily crack down on all three. Examples aplenty in Europe and Asia from the general confiscation of firearms from populations and controls on the sale and consumption of various drugs (state intervention has worked before in this regard). The examples you cite of as failure are countries which were already highly corrupt and often unable to enforce the law for such a reason. America isn't like that anymore. You could put in tougher restrictions on firearms and only a minority consisting of the conservatives (who economically, socially, and politically are constantly being marginalized and are on the path to extinction anyways) really complain.[/QUOTE] Yes, there would be few who may want guns (or alcohol of all things) banned considering the recent phenomenon of gun shootings, but you got to realize there's a substantial majority here that doesn't want guns banned. While you might consider it a valuable attribute for a government to be able to crack down on such things, it's not considered valued here in the States for a government to be able to crack down on something as widespread and culturally valued as firearms, much less crack down on anything else. While the initial reason behind firearms as a personal safety issue against wildlife, bandits, dictatorial governments, may seem outdated - here in america it's still relevant to the 21st century, especially considering the revelations that the NSA is snooping on everyone, not a lot of people want a potential totalitarian government disarming it's potentially resistant population. In case you haven't noticed, the government here is ALSO somewhat corrupt - I don't even know if "somewhat" is even a descriptive enough word.
Nice. If I ever plan to murder someone, I'll offer him a vacation in Venezuela and commit my plan there. In fact, I'll just offer him a vacation in Venezuela.
[QUOTE=kurva;43526965]Nice. If I ever plan to murder someone, I'll offer him a vacation in Venezuela and commit my plan there.[/QUOTE] Odds are he'll get offed by someone else before you can
[QUOTE=Xystus234;43526943]Yes, there would be few who may want guns (or alcohol of all things) banned considering the recent phenomenon of gun shootings, but you got to realize there's a substantial majority here that doesn't want guns banned.[/quote] Source? Last I heard, the long term trend in America is towards a decline in support for firearms and a decline in the proportion of firearm owners to the normal population. [quote]While the initial reason behind firearms as a personal safety issue against wildlife, bandits, dictatorial governments, may seem outdated - here in america it's still relevant to the 21st century, especially considering the revelations that the NSA is snooping on everyone, not a lot of people want a potential totalitarian government disarming it's potentially resistant population. In case you haven't noticed, the government here is ALSO somewhat corrupt - I don't even know if "somewhat" is even a descriptive enough word.[/QUOTE] That's why democratic institutions, NGOs, courts, protests, rallies, newspapers, a free media, etc exist. One can bring about change through that way, and I can't think of the last time anybody in America got what they wanted by forming a big mob and shooting government officials (well minus when the Southern traitors had that rebellion in the 1860s). People are recently mad about the NSA but they won't be taking up arms against it. America just isn't built that way these days, and it's a completely different country to how it functioned 200 years ago.
I swear Honduras and Venezuela are the same countries Ran by corrupts, police are just thugs, report something to a police about a murder and you will get killed next, hell our president is corrupt as fuck, we just got a 15% increase in taxes in EVERYTHING, like everything seriously,
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43527040]Source? Last I heard, the long term trend in America is towards a decline in support for firearms and a decline in the proportion of firearm owners to the normal population. [/QUOTE] [IMG]http://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/GunPolling_fig4.png[/IMG] Now don't get me wrong, the majority of Americans in the same poll advocated stronger gun laws by an 80% margin, but as you can see, there's still a vast majority who believe guns should stay legal. In 40 years, at the current trend more people will be probably advocating banning guns but right now people just want greater restrictions. [quote] That's why democratic institutions, NGOs, courts, protests, rallies, newspapers, a free media, etc exist. One can bring about change through that way, and I can't think of the last time anybody in America got what they wanted by forming a big mob and shooting government officials (well minus when the Southern traitors had that rebellion in the 1860s). People are recently mad about the NSA but they won't be taking up arms against it. America just isn't built that way these days, and it's a completely different country to how it functioned 200 years ago.[/quote] I'll bet you the moment those institutions fail then (unless our country truly has become decadent,) people are gonna be screaming for blood. But over something like the NSA? Nah, not that. Forced door to door nation-wide seizure of firearms? You bet your ass.
24,000 people... wow. Out of curiosity, how does that compare to the friendly death toll of the Afghan war to date?
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43523821]No, that's the United States, with 89 guns per 100 people, Venezula is 59th. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country[/url][/QUOTE] that number is misleeding anyway though, look theres gun nuts who have more guns than a standard national guard arsonel, maybe the average person has one in their closet, definatly more than 89 guns for every 100 people, especially since people like those on doomsday preppers exist, id say its off the chart with more guns than people here because the guys with tons of guns don't tend to report them [editline]13th January 2014[/editline] isn't this less of a venezuala problem and more of a regionwide problem? [editline]13th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobek-;43527211]24,000 people... wow. Out of curiosity, how does that compare to the friendly death toll of the Afghan war to date?[/QUOTE] how do they even compare.....you're in the wrong region of the world
[QUOTE=Xystus234;43526943]Yes, there would be few who may want guns (or alcohol of all things) banned considering the recent phenomenon of gun shootings, but you got to realize there's a substantial majority here that doesn't want guns banned. While you might consider it a valuable attribute for a government to be able to crack down on such things, it's not considered valued here in the States for a government to be able to crack down on something as widespread and culturally valued as firearms, much less crack down on anything else. While the initial reason behind firearms as a personal safety issue against wildlife, bandits, dictatorial governments, may seem outdated - here in america it's still relevant to the 21st century, especially considering the revelations that the NSA is snooping on everyone, not a lot of people want a potential totalitarian government disarming it's potentially resistant population. In case you haven't noticed, the government here is ALSO somewhat corrupt - I don't even know if "somewhat" is even a descriptive enough word.[/QUOTE] And for many of us, defense from wildlife is ACTUALLY still a valid concern. My entire town is at the base of a mountain, it isn't odd for wolves, bears, mountain lions. coyotes, or other creatures to end up visiting us. It doesn't happen terribly much as you get further from the base of the mountain, but it happens enough to be a concern for many of us. I remember back in primary school when a bear had wandered through town and ended up on the playground, we were in lockdown for hours until the game and fish managed to get the thing tranq'd and transported. So, yes, we don't NEED them in town, but for the thousands of us that enjoy our ability to go hiking, fishing, camping, and the like, having a firearm is a no-brainer. That, and shooting at the range is a fun pass time every now and then.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43527040]Source? Last I heard, the long term trend in America is towards a decline in support for firearms and a decline in the proportion of firearm owners to the normal population.[/quote] Which means nothing more than some people are opting not to have guns.
[QUOTE=Fusnax;43527147]I swear Honduras and Venezuela are the same countries Ran by corrupts, police are just thugs, report something to a police about a murder and you will get killed next, hell our president is corrupt as fuck, we just got a 15% increase in taxes in EVERYTHING, like everything seriously,[/QUOTE] close but no cigar, venezuela is actually rich as shit (roughly the same GDP of the United Arab Emirates), we're just so poorly managed they seem equivalent because of the sheer amount of money that goes to corrupt politicians and the political elite, as well as how much money is wasted on gifts to other countries with similar political goes (namely Cuba), and how much money is wasted giving shit for free to the people that shouldn't be free in the first place (Our gasoline is cheaper than water. Literally) [QUOTE=LSK;43526712]Damn man, you need to get the fuck out of there. I'm honestly scared for you, no offense but if it's really [i]that[/i] bad that's awful..[/QUOTE] I can't leave, I'm in the exact middle of my compsci program, I still have two years and a half at the earliest before I have a degree and thus be able to work abroad or apply for a scholarship (to foreign universities, our high school degrees aren't worth anything because our program lasts until 11th grade). I don't want to leave to just be slightly better off, I want to leave knowing I won't have to come back. that and currency controls means that even if I tried to just sell all my stuff and move, it would mean that the amount of hard currency I would get of that would be tightly regulated. [QUOTE=kurva;43526965]Nice. If I ever plan to murder someone, I'll offer him a vacation in Venezuela and commit my plan there.[/QUOTE] he'll be dead before leaving the airport, statistically speaking.
[QUOTE=darunner;43523896]For the Guardian to be such a reliable print, I'm rather surprised at how poor their research is.[/QUOTE] From what I've seen they're usually pretty on the ball.
I know a buddy over there, shit sucks.
Banning Guns and Violent video games is yielding results.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43528985]Banning Guns and Violent video games is yielding results.[/QUOTE] Please, stop it with these kinds of comments. You comment is implying that such regulations are actually enforced in Venezuela when they're not. Illegal arms trade in Venezuela is huge, it's extremely easy for anyone to acquire a weapon. Games, in the first place before the "ban", were mostly acquired through piracy because buying original games is stupidly expensive (literally all of my highschool friends with consoles had them chipped and modded to run pirated copies, and so did I when I lived there). The ban on violent videogames did basically nothing because you can still go to any flea market in any town or city and find all the pirated videogames you want. These two regulations by the government were at the time mostly used as scapegoats to point fingers in another direction in respect to why violence is such a huge problem in Venezuela. In any case, any comparison you want to make between 1st world countries and Venezuela is invalid right away because of such state of lawlessness that Venezuela finds itself in. The whole country is being kept together by very thin and weak strings that could snap off at any moment.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.