• Praying for change/God's plan
    110 replies, posted
This is a debate about prayer and not the existence of god or whether or not it's a fairy tale. Is praying for something to change contrary to God's will? For example, if a Christian prays for their relative's cancer to go away, are they really just asking God to change his mind about his plan? When I hear about someone praying it makes me wonder, do they really think God responds to prayer by thinking: "Gee, I was planning on letting them die slowly from a disease, but now that you mention it... I think I'll miraculously cure them"? And on top of that, how is it even logically possible for God to change his mind about his plan? Since God is supposed to be omniscient (all knowing), that means he knows the past, present, and future. For him to change his mind as a result of your prayers, that would mean he was wrong about his earlier vision of what would happen in the future (which contradicts his ability to know everything). So my question is, is there a point to praying for God to change something, even from a religious view that assumes God exists?
This is true if you assume there is such a thing as God's plan. Not every Christian believes this. If you assume that God does not have a fixed plan, praying for change makes complete sense. It is simply asking for help.
and what about bribing saints? I know some catholics that pray to saints, saying that if their pray comes true they will donate to something related to the saint.
I wish I could contribute, but the idea of there being a fixed fate made by God that nobody can affect is strongly against all of my beliefs. I suppose praying him to change His mind would be kind of dumb, then. I don't know.
If you subscribe to the collective unconscious idea, then you can infer that prayer has a force, a will of its user. If one prays, it creates a force in the universe that carries some weight, albeit not much. It's really subjective to whether or not you want to believe in it or not, though.
Well, it is rather strange as we're going all on theory. Perhaps one is praying for their relative's cancer to go away and thus interfere with gods plan, or is it gods plan to have the prayer interfere with his plan so that he may change his plan and remove the cancer from the relative? or is it his plan to ignore the person praying to change his plan and continue on with it? Basically it's one huge clusterfuck.
As proven, praying for someone to recover from HIV doesn't work (HIV "prayer" doctors anyone?), but medical treatment does. Why people believe praying works when it clearly doesn't is beyond my understanding.
OP you are trying to apply logic to something that involves no logic. Basically you are in a very retarded field of discussion.
Using your example, perhaps by causing strife to one individual by giving them cancer would cause multiple others to become stronger or to benefit by it. Or perhaps he gives diseases to some, and then cures them knowing that he was going to in the first place. Either to strengthen ties to god or perhaps for some other reason.
Maybe the divine plan only applies to the people who prove themselves worthy of it. The faithful people who pray.
[QUOTE=Aman VII;34347094]OP you are trying to apply logic to something that involves no logic. Basically you are in a very retarded field of discussion.[/QUOTE] This is very true.
well I assume we're going under the assumption that god is infallible so it's god's plan that your brother gets cancer, AND it's his plan that you pray to him, AND it's his plan that your brother's cancer gets better or worse basically god does what he wants. if you believe the divine plan exists then you must also believe that your prayers are part of that divine plan and therefore of themselves they make no difference
[QUOTE=judgeofdeath;34344621]This is true if you assume there is such a thing as God's plan. Not every Christian believes this. If you assume that God does not have a fixed plan, praying for change makes complete sense. It is simply asking for help.[/QUOTE] But isn't it true that the future must be fixed ("planned") in order for god to know the future?
My impression was that Christians use prayer to better understand God's will, rather than influence it. Praying is like adjusting your TV antennae apparently.
[QUOTE=Ylsid;34347068]As proven, praying for someone to recover from HIV doesn't work (HIV "prayer" doctors anyone?), but medical treatment does. Why people believe praying works when it clearly doesn't is beyond my understanding.[/QUOTE] You need to better understand what you're talking about. Intelligent Christians don't pray for change in the form of divine retribution, they pray for reassurance. Why do miracles have to be unscientific?
[QUOTE=Vladmir Puta;34349495]You need to better understand what you're talking about. [b]Intelligent Christians[/b] don't pray for change in the form of divine retribution, they pray for reassurance. Why do miracles have to be unscientific?[/QUOTE] Sounds like a no true scotsman.. [url="http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/why-i-pray-for-the-economy"]Why I Pray for the Economy[/url] [quote]God remove this disease from me I pray in Jesus Mighty Name, Amen[/quote] - [url]http://www.prayer-for-cancer.com/healing.html[/url] [quote]HOUSTON—"Pray for our economy!" says Doug Stringer of Turning Point Ministries. "Pray for our country! Pray for our businesses, for jobs!" His sermon reverberates from the stage into the seats and bleachers of Reliant Stadium. [b]Thousands of Christians—many of the 30,000 who've made it inside—get up and take his advice. They break into small huddles and start praying about the economy.[/b] [/quote] - [url]http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2011/08/and_god_will_send_rick_perry.single.html[/url] Apparently there are a lot of religious people believe that their prayers will result in some sort of divine change.
Now.. obviously, hate to say it if it's debated in here, but praying itself won't save the situation where you are worrying and there's nothing you can do but pray to calm down, or some situation like that. Because usually you would pray [b]for[/b] someone. And Muslims, Allah wouldn't necessarily want you to pray for him many times a day, just when you need to?
If god is real, he's a big jerk.
Surely the usefulness of praying to god would hinge solely on the existence of a god that would listen to prayers. I think rejecting the existence of god would answer the question pretty solidly.
As the majority of Facepunchers are atheist, and there isn't even any tangible scrap of proof of the existence of God's plan we can base a debate off, this will just end up either as an atheist circlejerk or the same points being repeated for 3 pages. Not worthy of a Mass Debate thread, think before you make another one.
Yes when somebody goes missing / falls into a coma or whatever, I'd consider praying for that person to be kind of someone who bothers. Like having a drink for some guy's birthday, et cet
[QUOTE=Jasun;34359223]As the majority of Facepunchers are atheist, and there isn't even any tangible scrap of proof of the existence of God's plan we can base a debate off, this will just end up either as an atheist circlejerk or the same points being repeated for 3 pages. Not worthy of a Mass Debate thread, think before you make another one.[/QUOTE] That's why I said this isn't about the existence of god and that we should assume a religious view for sake of this discussion. A good percentage of people in the world believe in a god and that praying for help will actually cause something (outside of their own mind) to change, not realizing that this seems to contradict their god's original view of future. I was hoping to get some arguments from the religious side if possible.
I'd imagine the usual argument would be that it is some sort of test or God wants you to do it and it's all part of this plan - which is unquantifiable and seems to be just trying to find a way to justify it. If it's part of his plan, praying would not help. If it's not part of his plan, then why would it happen in the first place? Reminds me of this picture: [t]http://i.imgur.com/0I8WB.gif[/t]
Well Jesus did say that you will get what you pray for.
Praying is as stupid as it gets. [editline]26th January 2012[/editline] It's also the most un-productive thing to do. Praying for something has a 0 effect compared to actually doing something.
What if a person praying for something is part of God's plan?
My belief is that you can't change God's plan. If you pray to him and a miracle is performed, you didn't cause him to change his plan, it was simply part of the plan. Praying to God is always good though.
[QUOTE=coolsteve;34414901]My belief is that you can't change God's plan. If you pray to him and a miracle is performed, you didn't cause him to change his plan, it was simply part of the plan. Praying to God is always good though.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that we should do something that you think does absolutely nothing just because it's "good"? Really?
Prayer is meant to be a way of communicating with God. It improves your relationship with Him. I disagree with the idea that prayer has no effect. From my view, when you use prayer as a way of just pouring out what you really want to say, but don't want to say to others, it has the same effect as talking to a doll or stuffed animal. Of course you won't get a direct response, but just you talking and you perceiving that someone that understands you is listening is enough to make anyone feel better. He gives us what we need, not what we want. If you are put into a position where you know you are going to die, such as an incurable disease, then prayer can be used to make peace with God and reassure yourself that you will be going to a better place. I view life on Earth as our trial. If God stepped in and did every little thing, what would be the purpose of heaven?
If it makes you feel good, then it's ok, thats the meaning of praying [editline]27th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sunday_Roast;34404751]Praying is as stupid as it gets. [editline]26th January 2012[/editline] It's also the most un-productive thing to do. Praying for something has a 0 effect compared to actually doing something.[/QUOTE] No, praying is productive, if you believe in it.
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