• Getting drafty in here: Ukrainian parliament approves another decree on mobilization
    39 replies, posted
[url]http://en.ria.ru/world/20140722/191104056/Ukrainian-Parliament-Approves-Decree-on-Limited-Mobilization.html[/url] [quote]Ukraine’s parliament approved a presidential decree on limited mobilization at a parliamentary session of 232 lawmakers, meeting the required minimum of 226 votes. Limited mobilization has been announced in relation to the events in eastern Ukraine, “which lead to deaths among civilians, military and specialists of Ukraine’s armed forces and law enforcement agencies in the eastern regions of the country,” the decree said. Earlier, Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council Secretary Andriy Parubiy stated that limited mobilization was needed for the rotation of special forces in the conflict zone in the country’s east as well as to strengthen troop numbers.[/quote] I should practice my war face
I can understand why there is a need to draft in your country though. Unlike here. Plus, Ukraine's current army is pretty lacking imo
Shit. Drafting is never good.
Its bloody 2 years of service here when there's barely any enemies. my automerge
You're literally asking people who don't want to fight, to fight. That makes for very demotivated soldiers. [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] Get off my automerge too.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;45465325]You're literally asking people who don't want to fight, to fight. That makes for very demotivated soldiers. [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] Get off my automerge too.[/QUOTE] To fight in a civil war as well, they could be fighting family members.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45465333]To fight in a civil war as well, they could be fighting family members.[/QUOTE] That would make for a great movie.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;45465325]You're literally asking people who don't want to fight, to fight. That makes for very demotivated soldiers. [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] Get off my automerge too.[/QUOTE] On the other hand, it motivates people to take action in the direction their country is going, gives them a little discipline (in some cases) and gets them involved in politics, which is always healthy for a democracy.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45466076]On the other hand, it motivates people to take action in the direction their country is going, gives them a little discipline (in some cases) and gets them involved in politics, which is always healthy for a democracy.[/QUOTE] Or, you know, results in them dying for a cause they don't agree with. See: Vietnam
[QUOTE=JgcxCub;45466153]Or, you know, results in them dying for a cause they don't agree with. See: Vietnam[/QUOTE] Or, they can fix their country's severe problems See: American Civil War Some cases of conscription are bad, but not all.
[QUOTE=JgcxCub;45466153]Or, you know, results in them dying for a cause they don't agree with. See: Vietnam[/QUOTE] If you're not willing to fight for your own democracy, you don't deserve it. I can perfectly understand refusing to invade a country based on some political fuckwits opinion, but refusing to defend your homeland, your own soil, is pathetic. This is a war happening in Ukraine, and everything should be done to end it. They said themselves that this was to allow rotation of special forces, in other words they want to strenghten the military presence so that the best soldiers can be used for the most important tasks while conscripts can sit on less hostile areas.
[QUOTE=JgcxCub;45466153]Or, you know, results in them dying for a cause they don't agree with. See: Vietnam[/QUOTE] Vietnam is a whole lot different story tho, Americans were drafted to fight for their country's interests abroad. This is Ukrainian territory, I'm not supporting the Kiev government but it feels pretty normal to be drafted to fight in your own country if need be. [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] Thank you Oscar Lima Echo.
[QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;45466247]If you're not willing to fight for your own democracy, you don't deserve it. I can perfectly understand refusing to invade a country based on some political fuckwits opinion, but refusing to defend your homeland, your own soil, is pathetic. This is a war happening in Ukraine, and everything should be done to end it. They said themselves that this was to allow rotation of special forces, in other words they want to strenghten the military presence so that the best soldiers can be used for the most important tasks while conscripts can sit on less hostile areas.[/QUOTE] How about allowing people their right to self-determination.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466355]How about allowing people their right to self-determination.[/QUOTE] Then they can choose to fight against democracy, because their country is being invaded. What kind of fuckwit would sit by idle when they can help their country? [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] If Russia invaded canada, would you sit by idle and bitch at how horrible it is that the government expects you to fight for your freedom? Because surely, the invasion is to improve the life of every citizen :)
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466355]How about allowing people their right to self-determination.[/QUOTE] They have the right to do that. Through an honest and real referendum, not by declaring independence by themselves and forcing out Ukrainians living there.
[QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;45466380]Then they can choose to fight against democracy, because their country is being invaded. What kind of fuckwit would sit by idle when they can help their country? [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] If Russia invaded canada, would you sit by idle and bitch at how horrible it is that the government expects you to fight for your freedom? Because surely, the invasion is to improve the life of every citizen :)[/QUOTE] If there were a huge number of Russians living in say, the Yukon, and Russia invaded the Yukon I wouldn't care, no. Why do I care about: 1) A place I don't live in. The only changes involves international boundaries and administration, it doesn't affect me directly 2) A place that apparently wants to leave anyway I'm not going to die over a place that doesn't want to be part of Canada. I think this notion of "defending democracy" is slightly flawed. Obviously if they hold a real refferendum and they don't want to be part of Russia that's a different story.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466400]If there were a huge number of Russians living in say, the Yukon, and Russia invaded the Yukon I wouldn't care, no. Why do I care about: 1) A place I don't live in. The only changes involves international boundaries and administration, it doesn't affect me directly 2) A place that apparently wants to leave anyway I'm not going to die over a place that doesn't want to be part of Canada. Obviously if they hold a real refferendum and they don't want to be part of Russia that's a different story, but I don't know anything about that right now.[/QUOTE] "It doesn't affect me so I don't care" Then why are you even in this thread?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45466414]"It doesn't affect me so I don't care" Then why are you even in this thread?[/QUOTE] Uh, because you're suggesting conflict escalation is good. A war affects me directly, if I were to get drafted and die that affects me. Death in the name of "national pride"
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466400]If there were a huge number of Russians living in say, the Yukon, and Russia invaded the Yukon I wouldn't care, no. Why do I care about: 1) A place I don't live in. The only changes involves international boundaries and administration, it doesn't affect me directly 2) A place that apparently wants to leave anyway I'm not going to die over a place that doesn't want to be part of Canada. I think this notion of "defending democracy" is slightly flawed. Obviously if they hold a real refferendum and they don't want to be part of Russia that's a different story, but I don't know anything about that right now and I doubt the international community will for a while.[/QUOTE] That's some of the dumbest shit I've heard. If Russia occupies your country it dirrectly affects you and your countrys economy, and as you sit with your fist up your ass you get to watch your country slowly turn into Russia 2.0. If Ukraine didn't fight these terrorists, there would be a landgrab for every day that passed, it's obvious they are taking anything they can get. [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466418] Death in the name of "national pride"[/QUOTE] Death in the name of not becoming the fucking soviet union again.
[QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;45466441]That's some of the dumbest shit I've heard. If Russia occupies your country it dirrectly affects you and your countrys economy, and as you sit with your fist up your ass you get to watch your country slowly turn into Russia 2.0. If Ukraine didn't fight these terrorists, there would be a landgrab for every day that passed, it's obvious they are taking anything they can get.[/QUOTE] I doubt it. Okay let's come back on this thread in 1 year and see if Russia has invaded the rest of Ukraine yet. You're basically just making wild claims. [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] Russia even backed that UN resolution allowing for the investigation of the crash, clear indication of what the future holds.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466452]I doubt it. Okay let's come back on this thread in 1 year and see if Russia has invaded the rest of Ukraine yet. You're basically just making wild claims.[/QUOTE] They wont if Ukraine actually steps up their game. They took Crimea, and now more and more of Ukraine becomes contested territory.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45466076]On the other hand, it motivates people to take action in the direction their country is going, gives them a little discipline (in some cases) and gets them involved in politics, which is always healthy for a democracy.[/QUOTE] The lasting psychological effects/"lessons" can differ a lot from person to person tho, not that having to endure a war is mentally/physically healthy business in the first place. For example, there's a lot of veterans that have fallen so much in love with the concepts of brotherhood and complete trust that they've actually started distancing themselves from society, which is full of people they can't 100% rely and depend on.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45466418]Uh, because you're suggesting conflict escalation is good. A war affects me directly, if I were to get drafted and die that affects me. Death in the name of "national pride"[/QUOTE] Conflict escalation? Because the rebels and Russia haven't escalated it enough already? On top of that, I did not say conflict is good. I'm saying Ukraine defending itself is good. There's a big difference.
[QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;45466247]If you're not willing to fight for your own democracy, you don't deserve it. I can perfectly understand refusing to invade a country based on some political fuckwits opinion, but refusing to defend your homeland, your own soil, is pathetic. This is a war happening in Ukraine, and everything should be done to end it. They said themselves that this was to allow rotation of special forces, in other words they want to strenghten the military presence so that the best soldiers can be used for the most important tasks while conscripts can sit on less hostile areas.[/QUOTE] I've had this debate with friends before and while friends of mine have said they would sign up to save hypothetically invaded England. There's no way in hell I would sign up. Would be getting the f--- out of dodge the moment shit kicked off, that's for sure. I went through a phase of signing up, so not sure what changed my opinion when I was going through the RAF selection process. Guess I just wanted to actually earn a salary which meant I could do things when I wanted rather than being told what I could and couldn't do.
[QUOTE=Oscar Lima Echo;45466380]Then they can choose to fight against democracy, because their country is being invaded. What kind of fuckwit would sit by idle when they can help their country? [editline]22nd July 2014[/editline] If Russia invaded canada, would you sit by idle and bitch at how horrible it is that the government expects you to fight for your freedom? Because surely, the invasion is to improve the life of every citizen :)[/QUOTE] "Fighting for freedom" is subjective, there might be circumstances where people might feel they would enjoy more benefits under the rule of the invading country than their own government.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45466807]"Fighting for freedom" is subjective, there might be circumstances where people might feel they would enjoy more benefits under the rule of the invading country than their own government.[/QUOTE] Then they should democratically vote in parting with their current country. These rebels are forcing out Ukrainians that still live in what still is Ukraine. While they are the minority in that region, they are entitled to a vote and say in a partition, let alone let to peacefully leave if they want to, even then. While the Russians there may be dumb enough to think they'll be happier oppressed by their own ethnicity than have a democracy under another, the Ukrainians in the region still deserve the freedom they want in the home country they were born into.
[QUOTE=JgcxCub;45466153]Or, you know, results in them dying for a cause they don't agree with. See: Vietnam[/QUOTE] Conscription is bad for wars in other nations, but when the war is in your nation, its not as bad.
[QUOTE=JgcxCub;45466153]Or, you know, results in them dying for a cause they don't agree with. See: Vietnam[/QUOTE] 2/3 of the troops in Vietnamn volunteered.....2/3 of the troops in WW2 were drafted.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;45466850]Then they should democratically vote in parting with their current country. These rebels are forcing out Ukrainians that still live in what still is Ukraine. While they are the minority in that region, they are entitled to a vote and say in a partition, let alone let to peacefully leave if they want to, even then. While the Russians there may be dumb enough to think they'll be happier oppressed by their own ethnicity than have a democracy under another, the Ukrainians in the region still deserve the freedom they want in the home country they were born into.[/QUOTE] Russia is a democracy too.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45466886]Russia is a democracy too.[/QUOTE] I know, 108% of Russians said so.
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